The Eastern Roman Empire – A Greek Empire?

cgf

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Just like Egypt and you yet no fool would claim Egypt as greek empire when Cleopatra was Pharao.

A) Ptolemiac Egypt is actually considered a Hellenistic state...so even if that wasn't a bad comparison, you'd still be wrong.

B) Greeks ruling over Egyptians and adopting many egyptian customs to maintain their rule, is very different from Greeks, ruling over Greeks, according to greek customs. Which makes it a bad comparison for the later/eastern Romans/Byzantines...it would've been a much better comparison for the numerous Chinese empires that were ruled by foreign dynasties.

C) I think you're getting caught up by modern notions of nationality/ethnicity...which is why I tried to specify "the people we would now call greeks" initially and included my (probably apocryphal) anecdote from the modern Greek war of independence to illustrate that those people thought of themselves as Romans...but we would now classify as greeks.

The modern greek view is that the eastern roman empire was a part of their history where they predominantly ruled themselves. So whether they think it was "the" greek empire or not, doesn't matter to the conversation we were having. Prior to the founding of modern greece, it was the last state that was run & populated predominantly by greeks.
 
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Theokritos

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Huh?
Did I say the contrary?
Read the post you quoted.

Sorry for being unclear. We can argue back and forth about the term "Greek Empire" (of course no-one can deny it was first & foremost the Roman Empire). Fact is, in the West the people of the Eastern Empire were called Greeks and their emperor was, consequently, called "Emperor of the Greeks" and "Greek Emperor". So the Westeners definitely viewed the Eastern Empire as a Greek entity.
 
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keonsbitterness

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Sorry for being unclear. We can argue back and forth about the term "Greek Empire" (of course no-one can deny it was first & foremost the Roman Empire). Fact is, in the West the people of the Eastern Empire were called Greeks and their emperor was, consequently, called "Emperor of the Greeks" and "Greek Emperor". So the Westeners definitely viewed the Eastern Empire as a Greek entity.
Western Christians saw them up close for over 50 years during the ill-fated 4th Crusade (13th century). Western merchants were very active in the Empire. They knew Greeks comprised the majority.
 

Evilo

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Sorry for being unclear. We can argue back and forth about the term "Greek Empire" (of course no-one can deny it was first & foremost the Roman Empire). Fact is, in the West the people of the Eastern Empire were called Greeks and their emperor was, consequently, called "Emperor of the Greeks" and "Greek Emperor". So the Westeners definitely viewed the Eastern Empire as a Greek entity.
Yes, we can argue for a long time.
I responded to the original post talking about the fall of Contsantinople as fall of the greek Empire, which is wrong, as I said.
 

cgf

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Look at the conversation from the start.

*sigh*

...that was the start of the conversation...

The first mention of "the" greek empire is by you...before then we talked about "former glory", in which context I made that post I quoted which prompted you to butt in...
 

Theokritos

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Isn't Justinian claimed to be the last emperor who was a native Latin speaker?

Either him or his nephew who succeeded him.

After the Christian Roman Empire was established (325 AD) and split into the Latin East and the Greek West shortly thereafter, yes they were. One was ruled from Rome, the other from Constantinople.
Greek East and Latin West - Wikipedia

Since some have commented that they enjoy the history conversation, I'll add this: the Empire didn't turn Christian in 325. It was more ambiguous than that and remained so for a few decades. There is this idea that Constantinople was founded as a Christian city and it's just not true. Constantine designated Tyche (Fortuna) as the city goddess and built a temple for her. In an annual procession, a statue of Constantine with Tyche in his hand was carried around and adored. And of course there used to be another statue portraying Constantine as a god (Apollo or Sol) atop the Column of Constantine.
 

Havre

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The question would be what were (or are) the Greeks?

At least we can agree that the French are Scandinavians.

I would modify umbertovanek's statement slightly. I don't think it is especially European, but all depending on your starting point most, if not all, countries in Europe do tend to create a narrative that makes their people "great". As a Norwegian one might argue that significant parts of Russian/Ukrainian history is a continuation of Viking history. Similarly, with the "Franks" of course. Somehow the French, Russians and Ukranians might not agree to being further down the "chain" from Scandinavians.

Personally I could not care less. I appreciate achievement regardless of my genetically or culturally proximity to whoever achieved something, but I do agree it still creates some "friction" in Europe. In terms of football that "friction" is positive I would argue, but in terms of politics etc. it might not be. This longing for a glourious past we apparently all had might not always be that healthy.
 
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Evilo

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The question would be what were (or are) the Greeks?

At least we can agree that the French are Scandinavians.

I would modify umbertovanek's statement slightly. I don't think it is especially European, but all depending on your starting point most, if not all, countries in Europe do tend to create a narrative that makes their people "great". As a Norwegian one might argue that significant parts of Russian/Ukrainian history is a continuation of Viking history. Similarly, with the "Franks" of course. Somehow the French, Russians and Ukranians might not agree to being further down the "chain" from Scandinavians.

Personally I could not care less. I appreciate achievement regardless of my genetically or culturally proximity to whoever achieved something, but I do agree it still creates some "friction" in Europe. In terms of football that "friction" is positive I would argue, but in terms of politics etc. it might not be. This longing for a glourious past we apparently all had might not always be that healthy.
Normands (where I live) are clearly a mix of Franks and Vikings.
 

Albatros

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Similarly, with the "Franks" of course. Somehow the French, Russians and Ukranians might not agree to being further down the "chain" from Scandinavians.

The Franks were a Germanic people living along the Rhine, consequentially we should insist on the name West France (and actually it should be spelled with a K).
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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The Franks were a Germanic people living along the Rhine, consequentially we should insist on the name West France (and actually it should be spelled with a K).

Exactly.

So when Germany play Norway/Sweden/Denmark we can pretend it is about who the Franks were.

Might be a bit circular though. As people going as far North as Norway probably came through Germany (and probably France) at some point. But does that make Vikings Germanic?
 

Incubajerks

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[MOD: Quoted post was deleted.]

I missed that thread, I went to read. I believe Evilo is right across the board and I think I'm an authoritative person on the subject. Only on Corsica there would be discussion.
 
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cgf

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I missed that thread, I went to read. I believe Evilo is right across the board and I think I'm an authoritative person on the subject. Only on Corsica there would be discussion.

Greek wasn't the main language of the Byzantine Empire and most of the ruling families weren't native greek speakers after Justinian? Or the part about the people we would now call greeks having made up the largest chunk of the population; at least after the Muslim conquests deprived the empire of its territory in northern Africa & the Levant?

At the risk of hijacking another thread...though at this rate it would probably improve this thread...I'd love to be corrected if I have been mistaken in my understanding of that time period.
 
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Incubajerks

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Greek wasn't the main language of the Byzantine Empire and most of the ruling families weren't native greek speakers after Justinian? Or the part about the people we would now call greeks having made up the largest chunk of the population?

At the risk of hijacking another thread...though at this rate it would probably improve this thread...I'd love to be corrected if I have been mistaken in my understanding of that time period.

You cannot divide the process and think that before Justinian it was one thing and after that it was another. The official language of the empire was Latin, no matter the language spoken by the people, then it is obvious, given the cultural differences, that the process was now irreversible, but when it comes to history there are facts.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
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You cannot divide the process and think that before Justinian it was one thing and after that it was another. The official language of the empire was Latin, no matter the language spoken by the people, then it is obvious, given the cultural differences, that the process was now irreversible, but when it comes to history there are facts.

Oh I wasn't trying to do that and my bad if it came across like I was saying that there was some definite point at which the empire changed to one populated & ruled predomenantly by people who we would now call greeks.

There are certain events that accelerated that shift which I have mentioned...and plenty more that I haven't mentioned...but I fully recognize that that "internal hellenization" I think I called it, was a process that occurred over the course of centuries, and had both internal & external drivers.


The conversation started with me making an off-hand comment about the fall of constantinople marking the last time prior to modern greece, that "greeks" had the independence of ruling themselves...which I recognize was itself a gross oversimplification, that I tried to hint at in my folllow up.

So our focus was on that greek character that the empire took on over time, moreso than the process by which that happened...well that and trying to get Evilo to recognize that he was the only one talking about "the greek empire"
 

Incubajerks

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Oh I wasn't trying to do that and my bad if it came across like I was saying that there was some definite point at which the empire changed to one populated & ruled predomenantly by people who we would now call greeks.

There are certain events that accelerated that shift which I have mentioned...and plenty more that I haven't mentioned...but I fully recognize that that "internal hellenization" I think I called it, was a process that occurred over the course of centuries, and had both internal & external drivers.


The conversation started with me making an off-hand comment about the fall of constantinople marking the last time prior to modern greece, that "greeks" had the independence of ruling themselves...which I recognize was itself a gross oversimplification, that I tried to hint at in my folllow up.

So our focus was on that greek character that the empire took on over time, moreso than the process by which that happened.

Tnx for the clarification, these are damn interesting topics, especially if you can have a constructive dialogue.
 
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