The Dream's Top 30 2011

[AmericanDream]

I'm saying 2 diffrent things about Lucia and Grimaldi. Nobody knows how well Grimadil will translate his talent to the NHL, and generally, small players have a very hard time. Reason why theres been only a handful of 5'6 players ever in the NHL.

Then for Lucia, I'm saying you're the first person I've seen put him in the first round. He seems like a typical 2nd round pick, and as I said before, theres players similar to that who play in much harder leagues. How is that being a a hypocrite?

On Grimadi, I don't think you can compare him to Gerbe, Gerbe proved he can translate, but you can't use that logic to say Grimaldi deserves to go in the 1st because if Gerbe did it Grimaldi should be able to too.

Most people on this site haven't seen ever player, you haven't seen every player you listed either. You have a notable bias for putting American players higher then they should be, if a player is a extremley high risk pick, like Grimaldi, its hard to argue hes should go in the first round. And for players you haven't seen, you have to base it off what others have said.

Your arguement, "based on talent alone" doesn't really mean much, based on talent, Nugent Hopkins should go 1st overall easily, and Murphy at 2nd, since they are the most "talented" players in the draft. Theres a lot more to it then talent, and even if I haven't seen Lucia I can tell its probably more than a bit strange you put him in the first round.

I agree with a lot here that you have said.

Nobody knows how anyone will translate their talents to the NHL, no matter the size. The thing about Grimaldi is, people use that as an excuse to not make a tough call or pick on the kid. Size isnt an issue for him. He plays the game with as much toughness as Gerbe does, with higher end skills.

I am not saying just because Gerbe made it, so will Grimaldi. I am using Gerbe as an example of seeing a player that is similar in size making it to the NHL. Many on here feel that Grimaldi's size makes it impossible for him to make it to the NHL....and Gerbe is proving that wrong. It is a special situation with Grimaldi, and come June I cant wait to see how it pans out, but I firmly believe there are those looking at Gerbe and now going "maybe there is a place for Grimaldi in the NHL as well".

With Lucia, yes many have him as a second round pick, but I can give you a bunch of sites that have him as a first round as well. But you missed my point with what you said with Lucia.

I am not turning this into a thing against you, but it is very common on HF to make posts or state things about players we havent seen. You went out of your way to make a comment that Lucia doesnt belong in the top 30 without you even knowing what type of player he is or even seeing him. That is what is truly wrong with this site.

I do not get to see every player, but I dont go out of my way to bring a player I havent seen up and say that he isnt going to be this or that as I simply have no clue. I made a ranking list of the top 30, plus the next 15 players. I ranked them on what I have seen, those that I havent seen much of are more down on my list. But I am not going out of my way and defending why said player is lower on my list when I havent seen much from them.

You went out of your way with no justification outside of others draft lists to defend that, and that is very much different then me making a top 30-45 list and ranking players accordingly. You said you didnt agree with my list, you made comments about 4-5 of the players, then you dont reply with your own list....I just wish more people would take the effort and balls to put out their own lists to be honest. If you made a thread a while back, then all apologies as I kind of remember you doing that, but you should copy it here as well if you did so I can look over and see how we differ.

As for my US bias, yeah I heard that a lot last year as well. I heard that when I stated 2010 would be the best American draft ever. Record breaking I said. After the draft, I didnt hear a single soul with how my list was biased with Americans again. Kind of got silent around here. I think my rankings of US players is spot on. Mayfield, Biggs, and Saad are ranked in the top 15 on many sites, Grimaldi and Lucia are top 30 on others as well. I dont think I am off base at all this year just like last year. I look forward to more silence after June again I guess.

Again, this isnt all against you, you are a solid poster, and I like talking hockey with you. This is for a lot of people on here, and I at times have done this as well. But I try not to comment on those I havent seen, especially making claims one way or the other about where a player should be drafted. I make my lists, throw what I think out there, and enjoy debating it. I love hockey and talking prospects. I know you do as well. Hope this didnt come off like a dick.

 

[AmericanDream]

Actually that's not right, for a few years we had next to nothing and now we definitely have something. It might not be much, but we have never been a country of plenty. Things are looking slightly better in Finnish junior hockey at the moment. For example our U18 national team won Czech Republic, Sweden and Russia this week with 5 notable forwards (Armia, Salomäki, Salminen, Torniainen and Ahlgren) absent from the roster. What's even more impressive, our U16 national team won Russia tonight, an achievement that's almost unheard of at U16 level.

oh great, now we will have 5 OFFICIAL THREADS - Armia, Salomaki, Salminen, Tomianen, and Ahlgren!!

All seriousness, that is great. Hockey needs more countries stepping up. It makes the overall product better and international competition better as well. The Finns always play tough, but they have lacked skill these past few years. Maybe you guys will start developing more high end talent again...Now if Slovakia can start producing more, things would get interesting.

Plus, if Finland has more to chose from, then the Finn Wolf Pack posters wont harp on you by dissing their player in draft rankings! They will have more players to root for now...

 

[Bjorn Le]

I agree with a lot here that you have said.

Nobody knows how anyone will translate their talents to the NHL, no matter the size. The thing about Grimaldi is, people use that as an excuse to not make a tough call or pick on the kid. Size isnt an issue for him. He plays the game with as much toughness as Gerbe does, with higher end skills.

I am not saying just because Gerbe made it, so will Grimaldi. I am using Gerbe as an example of seeing a player that is similar in size making it to the NHL. Many on here feel that Grimaldi's size makes it impossible for him to make it to the NHL....and Gerbe is proving that wrong. It is a special situation with Grimaldi, and come June I cant wait to see how it pans out, but I firmly believe there are those looking at Gerbe and now going "maybe there is a place for Grimaldi in the NHL as well".

With Lucia, yes many have him as a second round pick, but I can give you a bunch of sites that have him as a first round as well. But you missed my point with what you said with Lucia.

I am not turning this into a thing against you, but it is very common on HF to make posts or state things about players we havent seen. You went out of your way to make a comment that Lucia doesnt belong in the top 30 without you even knowing what type of player he is or even seeing him. That is what is truly wrong with this site.

I do not get to see every player, but I dont go out of my way to bring a player I havent seen up and say that he isnt going to be this or that as I simply have no clue. I made a ranking list of the top 30, plus the next 15 players. I ranked them on what I have seen, those that I havent seen much of are more down on my list. But I am not going out of my way and defending why said player is lower on my list when I havent seen much from them.

You went out of your way with no justification outside of others draft lists to defend that, and that is very much different then me making a top 30-45 list and ranking players accordingly. You said you didnt agree with my list, you made comments about 4-5 of the players, then you dont reply with your own list....I just wish more people would take the effort and balls to put out their own lists to be honest. If you made a thread a while back, then all apologies as I kind of remember you doing that, but you should copy it here as well if you did so I can look over and see how we differ.

As for my US bias, yeah I heard that a lot last year as well. I heard that when I stated 2010 would be the best American draft ever. Record breaking I said. After the draft, I didnt hear a single soul with how my list was biased with Americans again. Kind of got silent around here. I think my rankings of US players is spot on. Mayfield, Biggs, and Saad are ranked in the top 15 on many sites, Grimaldi and Lucia are top 30 on others as well. I dont think I am off base at all this year just like last year. I look forward to more silence after June again I guess.

Again, this isnt all against you, you are a solid poster, and I like talking hockey with you. This is for a lot of people on here, and I at times have done this as well. But I try not to comment on those I havent seen, especially making claims one way or the other about where a player should be drafted. I make my lists, throw what I think out there, and enjoy debating it. I love hockey and talking prospects. I know you do as well. Hope this didnt come off like a dick.

I don't have much time to do another full reply but I understand why you put them there and there is reasons but I would definitely disagree with the reasons.

As for lists, I have posted them but I haven't in awhile so I'll have to find an updated one. Which didn't take that long I guess lol.

1. Adam Larrson SWE D SEL SKEL
2. Gabriel Landeskog SWE W OHL KIT
3. Ryan Murphy CAN D OHL KIT
4. Ryan Nugent Hopkins CAN C WHL RDR
5. Sean Couturier CAN C QMJHL DRU
6. Duncan Siemens CAN D WHL SAS
7. Ryan Strome CAN C OHL NIA
8. Jonathan Huburdeau CAN C QMJHL STJ's
9. Dougie Hamilton CAN DOHL NIA
10. Sven Baertschi SWI LW WHL POR
11. David Musil D WHL VAN
12. Brandon Saad USA W OHL SAG
13. Joel Armia FIN RW SMlliga AST
14. Matt Peumpal CAN LW OHL PET
15. Ty Rattie CAN RW WHL POR
16. Jamie Oleksiak USA/CAN D NCAA North Eastern
17. Mark McNeil CAN CWHL PAR
18. Joe Morrow CAN D WHL POR
19. Alexander Khokhlachev RUS C OHL WSR
20. Mika Zibanejad SWE C SEL/J20 Djurgården
21. Dmitri Jaskin CZE RW O2 Slavia Praha HC
22. Scott Mayfield USA D USHL Youngstown
23. Daniel Catenacci CAN C OHL SSM
24. Zach Phillips CAN C QMJHL STJ's
25. Tomas Jurco SVK RW QMJHL STJ's
26. Xavier Ouellet CAN D D QMHL Mon. Jr
27. Tyler Biggs USA RW US USHL US NTDP
28. Tobias Rieder GER W OHL KIT
29. Matt Nieto USA LW NCAA Boston University
30. Niklas Jensen DEN RW OHL OSH

With HMs to Namesnikov, Clendening, Ambroz, Beaulieu, Klefbom, Rakell, Brodin, Jenner, Lessio

 

[Ciccarelli]

He got one thing right though - Armia isn't going to become a sniper...He already is one.

Next time I see Joel at the local rink (where he spends most of his spare time btw.) I think I'm gonna have to break him the bad news he aint gonna hack it as sniper, better start practising his back checking.

 

[Juzmo]

I do get to see many many players, and most if not all on this list, but it is still all in fun, so keep the flamming to a Trevor Gillies goon level minimum, cool??

#17. Joel Armia - This skilled two way forward is up and down on a lot of peoples lists. From what I have seen, it is tough to get a read on him as he has really good stretches and then some bad ones as well. Played very well at the WJC and could be a riser no doubt with his solid size and skillset.

One silly question since I'm interested, in how many games have you seen Armia play (and if you recall in what games)?

Interested since I have a totally different idea of him as a player, but yeah statistic wise he has had good and bad streches, but has played fairly well most of the time when not scoring with his constant trying to get chances and whatnot. I have no beef with you predicting him going at 17, just that I also see him as a more sniper type player with some physicality, dangles and stuff. At the moment not developed evenly on every area yeah, but has done that a whole lot during this season. And even though I think he wasn't horrible in the WJC with the conditions he had over there, I just don't think many felt good what he managed to get done there.

He isnt going to make it as a sniper because he just doesnt have the sniper tools.

Armia has a good shot, really likes to shoot and can make chances for himself if his linemates aren't doing that.

...well you saw what you saw. I just think you got a totally wrong idea about his game for some reason and yes I feel comfortable saying that seeing him play for about 15 times live and another dozen times on the screen plus the WJC this year.

Well a new point of view never hurt anybody and props for doing this list for a bunch of people even though I'm personally not that interested in the drafts outside of what the Thrashers are going for and the Finnish youngsters.

 

[AwesomePanthers]

I think a lot of people is gonna be surprised how high Jaskin will go.

 

[yanokovich]

I think a lot of people is gonna be surprised how high Jaskin will go.

Between the 25-35 spot at this point.

 

[Granlund2Pulkkinen*]

I think I put him at 27 in mine.

 

[AmericanDream]

One silly question since I'm interested, in how many games have you seen Armia play (and if you recall in what games)?

Interested since I have a totally different idea of him as a player, but yeah statistic wise he has had good and bad streches, but has played fairly well most of the time when not scoring with his constant trying to get chances and whatnot. I have no beef with you predicting him going at 17, just that I also see him as a more sniper type player with some physicality, dangles and stuff. At the moment not developed evenly on every area yeah, but has done that a whole lot during this season. And even though I think he wasn't horrible in the WJC with the conditions he had over there, I just don't think many felt good what he managed to get done there.


Armia has a good shot, really likes to shoot and can make chances for himself if his linemates aren't doing that.

...well you saw what you saw. I just think you got a totally wrong idea about his game for some reason and yes I feel comfortable saying that seeing him play for about 15 times live and another dozen times on the screen plus the WJC this year.

Well a new point of view never hurt anybody and props for doing this list for a bunch of people even though I'm personally not that interested in the drafts outside of what the Thrashers are going for and the Finnish youngsters.

Seriously, do I need to state this yet again?

Not sure how many times I have to state this to the Finnish contingent on here, but it is from a limited viewing that I base my opinion off of. I watched the WJC and seen him 3 other times in league play. He simply is not an elite sniper. That is my opinion.

It is so ridiculous how overblown players get on here, and how every kid is going to be the next great one, it is tiresome. There should be over 100 kids right now who were considered snipers in years past that should be putting up 40 plus goals in the NHL, but sadly they arent.

It is a fact of life that most prospects never live up to the hype or to our expectations. If you think Armia is going to be a 40 goal player (what a sniper truly is), then God bless you, I simply do not and stand by that opinion. If he makes it to the NHL, it will be developing his all around game, using his size and become a more rounded player. That is my opinion. This kid is nowhere near the elite snipers of years past or this year.

I base this off my limited viewing, and I stand by that. When he scores 40 goals in the NHL, bring this back up and I will gladly eat my side of crow with no complaints. Until then, I just dont see it.

 

[DuklaNation]

Joe Morrow will go higher than that. Too many smurfs in the 1st round.

 

[AmericanDream]

Joe Morrow will go higher than that. Too many smurfs in the 1st round.

I like Joe Morrow a lot, but I seriously doubt he goes top 30. I do have some smaller players in my top 30, but last year has proved that top end offensive players (Hishon, Granlund) will go high no matter their size. Morrow just doesnt have the talent level as the dmen ahead of him imo, but I am a huge fan of his and Portland (my fav CHL team). It could very well happen, and I hope it does as Morrow is a solid kid, but it seems like he has a ton of competition ahead of him at this point.

 

[Mathletic]

good stuff, I also do agree on RNH. Nothing against the kid but the hype is crazy.

I think Prince compares a lot to Tyler Ennis. Main reason I see for Prince not getting as much hype is the style they play in Ottawa. Coming to this year he had yet to produce a whole lot. This year with Toffoli and the rest in Ottawa they just score goals. He's done a good job defensively but I think his numbers are inflated a bit. The same holds for Danault in Victoriaville. The bulk of the work is done by Mrazek defensively.

I do see Oleksiak going high as well. Probably higher than you. I wouldn't be surprised see him go 10-12 range. I see Noesen going higher as well. I'd have Jaskin in there as well as Samu Perhonen and Chris Gibson pending on the injury status. Michael Mersch should draw interest late 1st, early 2nd. Smart guy, not particularly fast but good 2-way guy at Wisconsin. Sahir Gill as well I see going in the 2nd.

 

[AmericanDream]

good stuff, I also do agree on RNH. Nothing against the kid but the hype is crazy.

I think Prince compares a lot to Tyler Ennis. Main reason I see for Prince not getting as much hype is the style they play in Ottawa. Coming to this year he had yet to produce a whole lot. This year with Toffoli and the rest in Ottawa they just score goals. He's done a good job defensively but I think his numbers are inflated a bit. The same holds for Danault in Victoriaville. The bulk of the work is done by Mrazek defensively.

I do see Oleksiak going high as well. Probably higher than you. I wouldn't be surprised see him go 10-12 range. I see Noesen going higher as well. I'd have Jaskin in there as well as Samu Perhonen and Chris Gibson pending on the injury status. Michael Mersch should draw interest late 1st, early 2nd. Smart guy, not particularly fast but good 2-way guy at Wisconsin. Sahir Gill as well I see going in the 2nd.

appreciate the words...

everyone values players differently, as for Prince I just think many people are just waiting for the crash which hasnt happened yet.

I am a big Mersch fan, but late first early second might be a stretch. he was highly touted 2 years ago, and is having a wonderful year at Wisconsin, just not sure he goes that high, but I hope your right.

I gotta call out Sahir Gill, as he was one of the most inconsistent players I have ever seen along with Andrei Kuchin. I cant imagine any NHL team taking him that high after being bypassed last year. Unless he has improved like Oleksiak has, I would be absolutely shocked to see him picked in the draft at all.

Not sure a goalie goes in the first round, but if one does, it will be between the two Gibsons...

 

[Mathletic]

Not sure a goalie goes in the first round, but if one does, it will be between the two Gibsons...

though I think Perhonen is worth it and so would Gibson minus the injuries I don't think neither is getting picked in the first round but I'd have them in my top 45.

 

[Mathletic]

btw, I too agree on Armia ... not that big a fan of his

 

[Latex*]

I watched the WJC and seen him 3 other times in league play. .

How have you been able to watch him in the SM-Liiga? Did you really travel this far just to see him play?

 

[cenas*]

Seriously, do I need to state this yet again?

Not sure how many times I have to state this to the Finnish contingent on here, but it is from a limited viewing that I base my opinion off of. I watched the WJC and seen him 3 other times in league play. He simply is not an elite sniper.

tl;dr I watched the highlights of 3 games in WJC and he didn't score.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

First of all: Nice list Dream. Seems that you actually follow a lot of North American junior leagues.

Second: It's not that the Finns want everyone to love their prospects and try to prove the nay-sayers wrong by all means necessary, but it's that you simply had Armia's playing style all wrong. Calling him a two-way player is like calling Bure, Kovalchuk or Ovechkin that. He is more like a prototypical Russian sniper than a classic Finnish two-way guy. Whether he'll ever become a 40 goal sniper in the NHL or not, he's playing style is a sniper and that's it. He'll never become a bottom-six grinder like some other Finns.

 

[AwesomePanthers]

Between the 25-35 spot at this point.

I think he'll go higher than that. 18-25. Not a chance he goes in the second round.

I'm surprised that some here are calling Armia a sniper, he's more of powerforward after what I've read and seen.

 

[Juzmo]

He simply is not an elite sniper. It is so ridiculous how overblown players get on here, and how every kid is going to be the next great one, it is tiresome.

If you think Armia is going to be a 40 goal player (what a sniper truly is), then God bless you, I simply do not and stand by that opinion. If he makes it to the NHL, it will be developing his all around game, using his size and become a more rounded player. That is my opinion. This kid is nowhere near the elite snipers of years past or this year.

I base this off my limited viewing, and I stand by that. When he scores 40 goals in the NHL, bring this back up and I will gladly eat my side of crow with no complaints. Until then, I just dont see it.

Yeah well he still is just 17 and imo a good sniper-type player at that age in this league. I don't know about elite, but not many players have been better at his age here as a sniper (goals and shots, wuhuu stats). I'm not saying he will be as good as Teemu at his peak or that Armia will have a career as nearly as solid as him. Pretty boom or bust, could develop into a first-line player and something like a 35 goal scorer or then never get 35 goals in the NHL in his whole career.

And I just think IF he manages to succeed in the NHL he will be more of a sniper than a two-way forward. And obviously he needs to develop his game in every way to get a shot out there, especially get more muscle in his body so he can use his body even better than he is right now. And if you can see that he isn't anywhere near the prospects that have been listed as sniper the past years, well I can't say you are wrong since I haven't seen other prospects play out there in NA enough.

Ok, but I'll do that if he even manages to get 35 goals being more of a sniper than a two-way forward.

Short version: Totally silly homer Finn hyping Armia to be the next Gretzky. I am right, you are wrong.

 

[bebl]

#17. Joel Armia - This skilled two way forward is up and down on a lot of peoples lists. From what I have seen, it is tough to get a read on him as he has really good stretches and then some bad ones as well. Played very well at the WJC and could be a riser no doubt with his solid size and skillset.

goes in the same category as armia and olli jokinen compares

 

[BennyBST]

Where did anyone say fourty?

Last stats have him at 170. A comfortable playing weight for him is likely going to end up between 185-190 at 6'0 or 6'1.

That's 15 pounds. He could probably add 10 this summer alone.

As I recall people were concerned about Evander Kane's weight going into the 09' draft. I think he went into his rookie year at 180. So I'm worried that RNH won't be filled out within two seasons.

 

[R S]

As I recall people were concerned about Evander Kane's weight going into the 09' draft. I think he went into his rookie year at 180. So I'm worried that RNH won't be filled out within two seasons.

You are worried or aren't worried?

 

[BennyBST]

As I recall people were concerned about Evander Kane's weight going into the 09' draft. I think he went into his rookie year at 180. So I'm Not worried that RNH won't be filled out within two seasons.

sry.. post edit did not appear.

 

[R S]

sry.. post edit did not appear.

Ok, ya, thoughts that what you meant. I agree.