The Curious Case of Mitch Marner discussion thread.

[The Podium]

If we had cap space would you not take Hall, Hakanpaa (sp), Bogo, Nash, Dzingel, Bellmare, Janmark, Nosek, Khaira, Landeskog, Larsson??

Nobody is advocating for Neal. Dubas appears to have done OK with this year's UFA signings but wouldn't it be great if we did not have to find half a dozen UFAs to fill out our lineup yearly ?

We had the cap space to sign any of them except for maybe Landeskog….

What a weird post

 

[egd27]

That's why the second, third, and fourth lines scores 92% of the forward goals while only playing 60% of the total icetime in the playoffs - most at even strength or shorthanded?

People need to stop looking foolish. It's hard when there is a narrative at play, but the facts override it and blow it out of the water so they have to resort to doubling down by using feelings over facts.

You consider Nylander (38% of those goals) a depth forward ?

 

[Bluelines]

He did if he wanted to keep his elite young superstars.

They were RFA's where would have they gone?

In the history of the NHL how many RFA have signed $10 million dollar plus offer sheets?

 

[ToneDog]

We had the cap space to sign any of them except for maybe Landeskog….

What a weird post

Seriously you sound like a certain Leaf pumper that claimed our value signings last year were better than some of the other available players. So we could have signed Larsson at $4m, and Hall at $6m? We couldn't even sign our own 5th best forward and he was willing to give us a fricken $1m discount. Weird alright.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They were RFA's where would have they gone?

RFAs can still sign with another team, or sit out. They are not slaves. They earned those contracts, and they were not taking less from anybody.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We couldn't even sign our own 5th best forward

We could have signed Hyman. It just wasn't a smart allocation of cap.

 

[kb]

I'm not the one going through every single thread defending a GM that hasn't won a playoff round at every possible opportunity.

If you want to defend the Matthews and Marner contracts, go for it, you'll look like an idiot doing so but knock yourself out.

No, just addressing the ridiculously uniformed and poorly though out posts in threads that have little to do with the topic at hand. I'm firmly middle ground, but to those who wish to bash and complain about everything Dubas does and hijack threads that are not about Dubas and make it about him, I can see how one might see it that way.

So all that just to find another way in another thread to bash Dubas and still have the facts blow the ridicuous narrative up.

Oh well. Perhaps next time.

 

[Bluelines]

RFAs can still sign with another team, or sit out. They are not slaves. They earned those contracts, and they were not taking less from anybody.

I agree, not saying they are slaves. I said Dubas offered those contracts, the players didn't force anything. Which you had issue with.

Say Dubas sets a price that allows him to ice a deeper team, lets say $9 mil for Marner , 10 mil for Matthews ($9.1 = or > $9.1 mil is four 1st round picks).

• The players decide to sit. Dubas signs other players to fill his roster.
• The players sign an offer sheet. Leafs get 8 first round picks plus their own 1st rounders = 12 first round picks over 4 years.

They earned contracts, not sure they earned those contracts. Giving RFA history breaking contracts that walks them straight to UFA status is not the smartest or responsible negotiating.

Hey these contracts have been beaten to hell, there is nothing you or I will say that is going to shed different perspective on them to make someone who does not like them, like them or make someone who likes them not like them. My opinion is if you have Nylander at 7 mil, you can have 2 of the 3 (Marner, Matthews, Tavares) contracts and ice a deep team. Not all 3 plus Nylander.

 

[Racer88]

RFAs can still sign with another team, or sit out. They are not slaves. They earned those contracts, and they were not taking less from anybody.

They can only sign with non NHL teams, I would let them sit out for years if needed. They did not earn this contract and even if the did the team did not need basically 4 of the same player making 50% of the cap.
Dubas has the majority of the leverage but was to weak to use it

 

[CDN24]

They were RFA's where would have they gone?

In the history of the NHL how many RFA have signed $10 million dollar plus offer sheets?

Exactly, had he done nothing hoping they signed offer sheets he probably gets them cheaper by matching than he did by "negotiating"

 

[Dekes For Days]

($9.1 = or > $9.1 mil is four 1st round picks).

If you're talking about offer sheet compensation, that's wrong. Four first round picks was around 10.6m.

The players decide to sit. Dubas signs other players to fill his roster.
The players sign an offer sheet. Leafs get 8 first round picks plus their own 1st rounders = 12 first round picks over 4 years.

Both of those options result in losing those players, which is what I said. We'd be losing two of the best young players seen in the entire cap era and completely resetting our decade+ long rebuild for no reason. Marner also could have been given an offer sheet that didn't require four first round picks, that would have really screwed us.

They earned contracts, not sure they earned those contracts.

They earned those contracts.

Giving RFA history breaking contracts that walks them straight to UFA status is not the smartest or responsible negotiating.

They aren't history breaking at all, and they weren't walked straight to UFA. They got the most common post-ELC terms for players of their quality.

My opinion is if you have Nylander at 7 mil, you can have 2 of the 3 (Marner, Matthews, Tavares) contracts and ice a deep team. Not all 3 plus Nylander.

We ice a very good team with all 3 plus Nylander, even during a flat cap that came at the absolute worst time possible.

They can only sign with non NHL teams

No, they can sign with NHL teams.

 

[Racer88]

I’m pretty sure RFA’s cannot sign with other NHL teams if the decide to sit out because they can’t come to a new contract, otherwise the team would have no leverage and the players could just refuse to sign and go elsewhere.
That makes no sense
Hense the name Restricted free agent not UFA

 

[Bluelines]

They can only sign with non NHL teams, I would let them sit out for years if needed. They did not earn this contract and even if the did the team did not need basically 4 of the same player making 50% of the cap.
Dubas has the majority of the leverage but was to weak to use it

It about leverage. There was this incredibly smart CEO who was negotiating with a Union, for the record I'm neither pro or con union, the union came with demands and said they would strike if they didn't get their demands. The CEO being a shrewd business woman that she is said, sorry we can't meet your demands and we withdraw our offer. The union went on strike, time went on, the company didn't budge and the Union came back and said OK we want to take your offer, the CEO then said, that offer is now dead, you can have 80% of what we offered for pay, less this benefit, less this benefit, less this benefit. Moral of the story is don't over play your hand.

Mitch, Austin had one bullet in their gun, that was to hold out and not play a season. they play that bullet they never get the money that they lost in that season back. Your career earnings are $150 million? Well now they are $141 million.

TBH I don't care if we are a good team with Austin as our #1 Center or some other top end 1st round pick. Either way you need to have people who want to be on your team and get paid. Not people who want to get paid and really don't give a shi# if it is in Toronto or Moscow. Boston is the gold standard for signing elite players who want to be Bruins and they seem to have done OK.

 

[Racer88]

I just looked it up and the only way is thru an offer sheet or willing to sign a contract with the player that the first team has the right to match. So unless another team is willing to get in the middle of a RFA scrap you own their rights until they are 25

 

[The Podium]

Seriously you sound like a certain Leaf pumper that claimed our value signings last year were better than some of the other available players. So we could have signed Larsson at $4m, and Hall at $6m? We couldn't even sign our own 5th best forward and he was willing to give us a fricken $1m discount. Weird alright.

I didnt like last offseasons moves and was vocally against Simmonds (2x) and Thornton

We could not have signed both Larsson and Hall but we could have signed either on their own.

We also couldve signed Hyman but it wouldnt have been a smart move.

Dont sign Ritchie and trade Kerfoot and we have enough cap space for Hall at 6, the caveat being Kerfoot's replacement would need to be league minimum.

 

[Bluelines]

I’m pretty sure RFA’s cannot sign with other NHL teams if the decide to sit out because they can’t come to a new contract, otherwise the team would have no leverage and the players could just refuse to sign and go elsewhere.
That makes no sense
Hense the name Restricted free agent not UFA

It has to be an offer sheet from a team, as a RFA you can't just pick and chose who you want to play with. I suppose you can in an indirect way, you tell your agent you want to sign with Boston, Bostt offer sheets you and you then dictate how much you get on a contract and where you play.

There were rumors that when Montreal offer sheeted Aho, they did so with the blessing of Carolina because Carolina was happy to match the offer sheet.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I just looked it up and the only way is thru an offer sheet

Which is signing with another NHL team.

 

[Racer88]

Which is signing with another NHL team.

Nice play on words to muddle the narrative

 

[Racer88]

It has to be an offer sheet from a team, as a RFA you can't just pick and chose who you want to play with. I suppose you can in an indirect way, you tell your agent you want to sign with Boston, Bostt offer sheets you and you then dictate how much you get on a contract and where you play.

There were rumors that when Montreal offer sheeted Aho, they did so with the blessing of Carolina because Carolina was happy to match the offer sheet.

Probably some cash under the table on that one.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nice play on words to muddle the narrative

What play on words? You are the one that came out and claimed they could only sign with non NHL teams. That is false. They are free to sign with any NHL team. Toronto just has the option to match.

 

[WTFMAN99]

No, just addressing the ridiculously uniformed and poorly though out posts in threads that have little to do with the topic at hand. I'm firmly middle ground, but to those who wish to bash and complain about everything Dubas does and hijack threads that are not about Dubas and make it about him, I can see how one might see it that way.

So all that just to find another way in another thread to bash Dubas and still have the facts blow the ridicuous narrative up.

Oh well. Perhaps next time.

Marner and Matthews contracts were bad the moment they were signed, that hasn't changed over time, no narrative, no sugar coating it. It's prevented him from getting quality depth to support his stars and a large reason we're in the UFA bargain bin for the 2nd summer in a row.

This UFA period has been more bananas than the summer prior and I felt he's made some good adds but there are still some weaknesses on this roster that we just can't address.

 

[Bluelines]

If you're talking about offer sheet compensation, that's wrong. Four first round picks was around 10.6m.

NHL free agent list, RFA compensation scale - Sportsnet.ca

Both of those options result in losing those players, which is what I said. We'd be losing two of the best young players seen in the entire cap era and completely resetting our decade+ long rebuild for no reason. Marner also could have been given an offer sheet that didn't require four first round picks, that would have really screwed us.

The reason is to not have 50% of your cap tied up in 4 players and paly a yearly game of whack of mole with UFA's that are either trying to restart their career or have not lived up to expectations. Name one UFA that we have signed in the last 4 years that has had a material impact on the team?

They earned those contracts.

Nope

They aren't history breaking at all, and they weren't walked straight to UFA. They got the most common post-ELC terms for players of their quality.

Both are UFA's at the end of this contract.

 

[ACC1224]

I’m pretty sure RFA’s cannot sign with other NHL teams if the decide to sit out because they can’t come to a new contract, otherwise the team would have no leverage and the players could just refuse to sign and go elsewhere.
That makes no sense
Hense the name Restricted free agent not UFA

They can sign with another team, they are just not FREE to do so.
The Leafs would have to allow them to do so which in essence means they aren't FREE to sign with another team.
Everyone down the rabbit hole!!

 

[The Podium]

Marner and Matthews contracts were bad the moment they were signed, that hasn't changed over time, no narrative, no sugar coating it. It's prevented him from getting quality depth to support his stars and a large reason we're in the UFA bargain bin for the 2nd summer in a row.

This UFA period has been more bananas than the summer prior and I felt he's made some good adds but there are still some weaknesses on this roster that we just can't address.

We have the cap to go UFA shopping and have the cap to have quality depth, we just have the wrong players in depth roles.

Even if Tavares, Matthews and Marner are overpaid by a collective 5.5 mill, that is likely having an Andrew Ladd on the books, which didnt stop NYI from adding depth in all areas.

 

[WTFMAN99]

We have the cap to go UFA shopping and have the cap to have quality depth, we just have the wrong players in depth roles.

Even if Tavares, Matthews and Marner are overpaid by a collective 5.5 mill, that is likely having an Andrew Ladd on the books, which didnt stop NYI from adding depth in all areas.

NYI's top C is making is 7M

I consider Nelson the 2C and he's making 6M

Now I am not saying they're better but 13M combined for their top 2 centres is about 10M less than our combined top 2 centres, it helps you add more quality pieces around the roster.

NYI pushed Tampa the hardest in the last 2 playoffs IMO