News Article: The Culture is Broken

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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Has a team ever fired its head coach twice within the same season?

Maybe they'll just shuffle Hitch to an advisory position and name GG interim coach.
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
85,950
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Has a team ever fired its head coach twice within the same season?

Maybe they'll just shuffle Hitch to an advisory position and name GG interim coach.

The team needs a spark and it's not coming from a trade unless Stolarz plays Vezina level from here on out.
 

48g90a138pts

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Jun 30, 2016
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I think the culture was broken when the Oilers decided to do the blow it up and build through the draft. It led to players happily coasting knowing the team wanted those high draft picks. Problem is the same "effort" mentality is still breeding within the locker room today.

Some way, some how, they have to break that habit. Oilers have way more talent then they're showing. It's the effort put in by the team as a whole that's bringing them down.

Teams like St. Louis, Philadelphia, Chicago and Carolina are tearing it up and pushing hard. All the Oilers need to do is go on some sort of streak. They've done it twice this season. I don't think they're out of the playoffs yet, but time is running out.
 

McShogun99

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Aug 30, 2009
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Sorry but you are just wrong on Smyth.

The Oilers took their time with Smyth, as clubs should do. you can't realistically count his 3 games in 94 as a season.

Smyth bagged 39 goals in his sophomore year here. That's somebody figuring it out real quick. Most players struggle in rookie season, even Draisaitl did.

Of course the 96-97 oilers were deep, but there was a lot of usable talent on that club and no trouble at all filling out a roster. In fact players like Satan got so little toi here he didn't sport big numbers here. But his skill was getting me out of my seat regularly. I knew he was a player. But that's how deep that team was. That Oilers team is built out like the Flames are now, just solid at every position.

I think you're missing my point. They were deep but they were all low paid players that worked hard. That's what we need on our current team. Instead we have a mix of low and high paid players that aren't putting in the effort or following the system. We can't afford a 6 million dollar Lucic to show up once every 10 games or even lower cost players like Brodziak, Kassian etc that aren't showing up every game.
 

Drivesaitl

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I think you're missing my point. They were deep but they were all low paid players that worked hard. That's what we need on our current team. Instead we have a mix of low and high paid players that aren't putting in the effort or following the system. We can't afford a 6 million dollar Lucic to show up once every 10 games or even lower cost players like Brodziak, Kassian etc that aren't showing up every game.

This post I would agree with. But the first post I disagreed with was with your opening statement that the 97 team had virtually no talent. That was an opening statement that is false and sure to elicit response. I missed your point because in writing our first statements set the tone for how we are read. Just like in essays. Your first sentence is the theme that establishes your thought to the reader. (sorry, not meaning to preach, just to offer helpful feedback)

That team had plenty of talent, and talent depth. Any of Mike Grier, Marchant, Czerkawski, Satan, Kovalchuk, McCammond, Lindgren even Bucky, would bring a nature of talent we don't even have in this lineup. (we agree on this)

That's in addition to Weight, Smyth, Guerin, Arnott which were core talents to build around. Keep in mind those are 4 exceptional forwards and the team presently only has 3.

I totally agree how much our current lineup is lacking. Any player I mentioned would be a better asset and contract than Lucic.
 

MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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You can maybe make a low-talent team work in the NHL for a season or two but it requires basically zero expectation, that then gives the coach full authority. And then the coach has to have a very, very specific system and there are very few coaches out there who can get a lot out of nothing. Coach has to have exceptional high hockey I.Q. and understanding of the modern NHL, it can't just be an issue of "buy in".

And even then, you're really not a real contender, you're a joke pretender that will get exposed later than sooner, that's all.

The Oilers goal should not be to emulate what the Islanders are.

no one said the goal is to be the isles. the point is culture matters and you can see the difference it makes with the isles team this year from last. the disconnect you guys have is you think we think culture is the ONLY thing. no we're just saying it's a very important thing and that talent ALSO matters.

there's way too much ignorance in some people's interpretation of culture. it encompasses a lot of things. the isles stick with it. they never change their game style no matter what the score is and time of the game. that takes big time discipline and is a team value and habit that is demanded of all players from top to bottom. culture. buy in. they wear you down.

they are extremely predictable, consistent and sound in front of their tendys which is allowing a couple of lower tier goalies to look quite good over the course of the year. you can expect cheating for offence or defensive lapses to be way more shunned and unacceptable there than it is here. culture. buy in.

when you take care of your defence and are sound and tight all over the ice you are going to wear the opposition down and you WILL create your own offensive chances and turnovers from that sound efficient team play. the other team is like a boxer throwing hay makers, exerting a lot of energy tryoing to break your sound solid team defence... eventually they fatigue and your going the other way with more energy.

it makes their players look better than they may actually be. i bet you if we grabbed a couple of decent wingers who are succeeding on other teams and pop them into this current culture that they would have a high chance of struggling or at least performing below standards.
 

Drivesaitl

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I think the culture was broken when the Oilers decided to do the blow it up and build through the draft. It led to players happily coasting knowing the team wanted those high draft picks. Problem is the same "effort" mentality is still breeding within the locker room today.

Some way, some how, they have to break that habit. Oilers have way more talent then they're showing. It's the effort put in by the team as a whole that's bringing them down.

Teams like St. Louis, Philadelphia, Chicago and Carolina are tearing it up and pushing hard. All the Oilers need to do is go on some sort of streak. They've done it twice this season. I don't think they're out of the playoffs yet, but time is running out.

Theres something in this. Soon as the org moved the needle to Pulju and Yama and additions like Lucic instead of staying in present with Hall and Eberle they were in a sense stating these were still developmental times. Pulju particularly has used this message to develop at a glacial pace. Not even Yakupov struggled that much to produce.

The org moved away from the McDrai ELC time clock. That was a brutal mistake.
 
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McShogun99

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Aug 30, 2009
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This post I would agree with. But the first post I disagreed with was with your opening statement that the 97 team had virtually no talent. That was an opening statement that is false and sure to elicit response. I missed your point because in writing our first statements set the tone for how we are read. Just like in essays. Your first sentence is the theme that establishes your thought to the reader. (sorry, not meaning to preach, just to offer helpful feedback)

That team had plenty of talent, and talent depth. Any of Mike Grier, Marchant, Czerkawski, Satan, Kovalchuk, McCammond, Lindgren even Bucky, would bring a nature of talent we don't even have in this lineup. (we agree on this)

That's in addition to Weight, Smyth, Guerin, Arnott which were core talents to build around. Keep in mind those are 4 exceptional forwards and the team presently only has 3.

I totally agree how much our current lineup is lacking. Any player I mentioned would be a better asset and contract than Lucic.

Most of those guys bolded, including Smyth had their talent come from their work ethic. Smyth would have been nothing more then a 4th liner if he didn't have that work ethic in his DNA.
 
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MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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I think the culture was broken when the Oilers decided to do the blow it up and build through the draft. It led to players happily coasting knowing the team wanted those high draft picks. Problem is the same "effort" mentality is still breeding within the locker room today.

Some way, some how, they have to break that habit. Oilers have way more talent then they're showing. It's the effort put in by the team as a whole that's bringing them down.

Teams like St. Louis, Philadelphia, Chicago and Carolina are tearing it up and pushing hard. All the Oilers need to do is go on some sort of streak. They've done it twice this season. I don't think they're out of the playoffs yet, but time is running out.

i do agree. somewhere along the lines around 2009 to present there was that losing culture that set in and persists now. they are obviously no world beaters but they have been underachieving for a decade now save for one season. and part of it is also HOW they're losing not just THAT they're losing. saggin. no stick with it ness. they've seen this story unfold the same way season in season out that they have lost the will to fight through and at least battle anymore. they need a rejuvenation and a complete culture change.

if they can right this sagging-expecting-to lose kind of culture, i think they would have a MUCH better ability to develop draft picks and make them useful players instead of the draft fodder we are accumulating.

bringing in young impressionable players into this culture sets them up for failure and it becomes a never ending cycle because if you can't develop young talent you keep losing. FIX the culture. clean house in management and get rid of players you don't think can be salvaged or is harmful to culture. we can't afford to screw up the development of guys like bouchard and yamamoto.
 
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frag2

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Mar 8, 2006
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no one said the goal is to be the isles. the point is culture matters and you can see the difference it makes with the isles team this year from last. the disconnect you guys have is you think we think culture is the ONLY thing. no we're just saying it's a very important thing and that talent ALSO matters.

there's way too much ignorance in some people's interpretation of culture. it encompasses a lot of things. the isles stick with it. they never change their game style no matter what the score is and time of the game. that takes big time discipline and is a team value and habit that is demanded of all players from top to bottom. culture. buy in. they wear you down.

they are extremely predictable, consistent and sound in front of their tendys which is allowing a couple of lower tier goalies to look quite good over the course of the year. you can expect cheating for offence or defensive lapses to be way more shunned and unacceptable there than it is here. culture. buy in.

when you take care of your defence and are sound and tight all over the ice you are going to wear the opposition down and you WILL create your own offensive chances and turnovers from that sound efficient team play. the other team is like a boxer throwing hay makers, exerting a lot of energy tryoing to break your sound solid team defence... eventually they fatigue and your going the other way with more energy.

it makes their players look better than they may actually be. i bet you if we grabbed a couple of decent wingers who are succeeding on other teams and pop them into this current culture that they would have a high chance of struggling or at least performing below standards.

Ok. You preach all this stuff. What's your solution? You spent the last 3 years preaching culture. There's been so much player turnover.

Are you suggesting trade McDavid and Draisaitl then?

The team just sucks and can't win because we don't have enough talent to win. Why is it that we can somewhat keep up with Penguins but ultimately lose? They obviously put effort but it didn't work. So whats the problem there?
 
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Drivesaitl

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Most of those guys bolded, including Smyth had their talent come from their work ethic. Smyth would have been nothing more then a 4th liner if he didn't have that work ethic in his DNA.

I can't agree with this. I put a premium on goal scoring, its of course one of the more important aspects of hockey and goal scorers are ALWAYS a hot commodity. Doesn't matter how, doesn't matter at all. Its actually BETTER to have a goal scorer that can clean up on garbage goals because Smyth could play with anybody and whether he was dropped down or not in prime he was the one guy that could get everybody else going. All he ever needed was somebody to work the puck down low if it wasn't him doing it himself.
Smyth had decent speed, mobility, had exceptional hands and touch around the net which he worked on contantly, and was fearless and had amazing stamina reserves which must have been through his constant commitment to getting better.

The DNA stuff is offputting way to put it.

I mean really going to that extent you can look at EVERY NHL player and state if they didn't work they wouldn't be here and you would be right. You don't get to the NHL, period, without at one time having tremendous resolve. What occurs at this level is some players adapt, still have the fire, and get better, and others check out like Spooner and it appears Puljujarvi, Yakupov etc. Some players get to the dance and decide unconsciously at least that its just all so hard. They almost invariably end up playing in KHL or Europe or AHL because they can just coast on what they go and have reasonable results there.

I do think you're getting somewhat confused though. A player needs to have a certain amount of talent and resolve to succeed. the trouble with the Oilers lineup is a lot of these players obviously don't have either the talent or resolve.

You won't find ANY Colby Cash, Malone, Benning, Old Brodziak, Spooner type players on the 96-97 lineup because they are just not good players and would not even make it through camp on that very deep team. I can only think you didn't see that 96-97 team a lot, or Smytty in prime. People that only saw Smyth in the later years never really saw him. Didn't see him at his best.
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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They've never had two actual scoring lines, it's arrogance and stupidity (two things this organization excels in) to think they have "well dur hur, we picked a lot of 1st rounders so we must have talent!!".

Hold on a second betsy.

The Leafs and Jets have actual depth, but they also ran the table with their 1st round picks.

Matthews (hit), Marner (big hit), Nylander (hit), Reilly (hit), Kadri (hit) PLUS Tavares (UFA signing, basically another no.1 overall, hit)

Schiefle (big hit), Laine (hit), Ehlers (hit), Connor (hit), Wheeler acquisition (huge hit, basically like another top 5 hit).

Oilers though: Hall into Larsson (miss, not good enough for a no.1 overall pick), Yakupov (bust), Puljujarvi (bust), Paajarvi (bust), Draisaitl (hit), McDavid (big hit), RNH (mild hit), no.16 pick (Reinhart, huge bust)

One of these three is not like the other two.

You are NEVER getting this group to play "character" hockey, they need to be able to play free, fun hockey and not panic any time they get down in a game. They need to be able to play the same style as Toronto does. They can't because their management screwed up in particular the Hall to Larsson (bust), the Reinhart (bust), and the Puljujarvi (bust).

Had they scored or retained on even one of those they'd be in OK shape, 2/3 they'd be in great shape, 3/3 and they'd be a high end team.
 
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MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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Ok. You preach all this stuff. What's your solution? You spent the last 3 years preaching culture. There's been so much player turnover.

Are you suggesting trade McDavid and Draisaitl then?

The team just sucks and can't win because we don't have enough talent to win. Why is it that we can somewhat keep up with Penguins but ultimately lose? They obviously put effort but it didn't work. So whats the problem there?

dude, i think it was you who said he reads and understands all my posts? well have i not outlined what i think they should do like 100 times over??

i said clean house of the obc and essentially the whole management/scouting crew or at least as much as logistically possible and go get a new (and proper) regime of managers and scouts in with their own culture and philosophies because obviously the one we've had for the last 10 plus years hasn't gotten us anywhere. the isles were lucky to get smart hockey people like trotz and lamerello in.

we need new eyes to point us in a different direction or at least a slightly altered direction than the path we have been trudging along. this new management regime will assess culutre and talent and decide who to keep and whom best to oust. who can be salvaged... who can fit into the new culture. establish and set this culture and have everybody live by it. then draft using their own values and assessment of players. develop them with your own values and principles (all part of CULTURE). and hopefully we can trudge out another year or two developing good habits and maybe the calvary will come through development and trades down the road if things are done properly. but you HAVE to show connor things are changing. the culture is changing or if he sees the same sagging losing culture with no light at the end of the tunnel he will straight up leave. or if you want to risk a quick fix you can trade connor and drain and likely get a boat load of assets and maybe that could turn it around..... BUT you'd STILL need a good and new culture to direct the new assets.

point is it can be very hard to develop this talent that we need in a BAD culture. who knows how far along and how decent a player like pooly or khaira can be if developed in a better culture the last few years. they could very well have developed into a 2nd line winger and a solid third line center perhaps. maybe drake could have turned into a poor man's marchand type player. etc etc and we wouldn't be complaining about lack of talent anymore. it can be hard to understand how poorly players can develop under a bad regime who knows cr@9 about developing players... that's organizational CULTURE.

working hard yes is part of culture, but working together and smartly is a part of culture. hitch has said it many times. these guys lose focus and stop playing for each other andd instead just start playing with themselves... in fact it was kind of a funny quote along the lines of " frustration sets in and we start playing with ourselves" lol. but it's true. the effort is still there but the communication and battling and covering for teammates etc aren't. they're essentially mindlessly skating around hard with no team goal in mind. when you're a tight unit you know how to cover for each other, support each other. stick with it and battle for each other. again it's culture. just like at a workplace. a well oiled machine.
 

RegDunlop

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Nov 5, 2016
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Edmonton
I've been thinking about this since the Canes game.

All this talk about culture had me wonderimg about the whole 'after game celebrations' Carolina does.
While I'm certainly not as opined as Cherry in my dislike for this, I do think it is kind of immature and ridiculous for a professional organization to do. But that's my opinion.
I do, however, believe from what I saw in that one game, that at least most of that team is having fun doing something together. If that isn't bonding a proper culture then what is?

Definitely would cringe if we did something like that. But I'd sure like to see some camaraderie and happiness to this team. Ver rarely has a shot of the bench shown some positivity, let alone smiles or laughter. Not all moments have to be serious.

That would be my first shot at culture. Enjoy what you are doing.
 

MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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I've been thinking about this since the Canes game.

All this talk about culture had me wonderimg about the whole 'after game celebrations' Carolina does.
While I'm certainly not as opined as Cherry in my dislike for this, I do think it is kind of immature and ridiculous for a professional organization to do. But that's my opinion.
I do, however, believe from what I saw in that one game, that at least most of that team is having fun doing something together. If that isn't bonding a proper culture then what is?

Definitely would cringe if we did something like that. But I'd sure like to see some camaraderie and happiness to this team. Ver rarely has a shot of the bench shown some positivity, let alone smiles or laughter. Not all moments have to be serious.

That would be my first shot at culture. Enjoy what you are doing.

i agree... teams need to have fun, relax and bond as a tight unit to achieve success. i do believe that's what happened after hall got traded for one year. they got rid of a polarizing figure and instantly felt closer as a team and had more fun and played FOR each other. but as we can see sometimes these things don't last. you need to right the culture at a deeper, more permanent level and that starts at the very top down (management).
 
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RegDunlop

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i agree... teams need to have fun, relax and bond as a tight unit to achieve success. i do believe that's what happened after hall got traded for one year. they got rid of a polarizing figure and instantly felt closer as a team and had more fun and played FOR each other. but as we can see sometimes these things don't last. you need to right the culture at a deeper, more permanent level and that starts at the very top down (management).

Perhaps. Winning does breed that culture all on it's own of course. But if true, then ridding this team of the rotten stench of management is paramount. Because whatever side of the fence you're on - obc interferes and runs show, or obc has no input - doesn't matter. ALL of them are responsible for not building on that one year, and / or letting whatever derailed the momentum continue to this day.
 
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XXIV97

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Jun 2, 2016
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In order to build a winning culture, we have to first build a winning culture on our farm teams (Bakersfield Condors (AHL) and Wichita Thunder (ECHL)). Right now, in the organization, the Bakersfield Condors have been the only one to establish this culture.

I think in order to change the culture on the Oilers, you will have to change the culture in Wichita too. Our prospects will spend a lot of development time in the AHL and ECHL hopefully, therefore we should make sure these teams instill the value of winning in our prospects.

The Oilers have been rushing prospects into a toxic environment instead of letting them learn how to win. If the Oilers left their prospects alone in the minors on a successful team, then we would not be facing this situation today.

The culture has to be established throughout the organization, not just in the NHL.
 

frag2

Registered User
Mar 8, 2006
19,183
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dude, i think it was you who said he reads and understands all my posts? well have i not outlined what i think they should do like 100 times over??

i said clean house of the obc and essentially the whole management/scouting crew or at least as much as logistically possible and go get a new (and proper) regime of managers and scouts in with their own culture and philosophies because obviously the one we've had for the last 10 plus years hasn't gotten us anywhere. the isles were lucky to get smart hockey people like trotz and lamerello in.

we need new eyes to point us in a different direction or at least a slightly altered direction than the path we have been trudging along. this new management regime will assess culutre and talent and decide who to keep and whom best to oust. who can be salvaged... who can fit into the new culture. establish and set this culture and have everybody live by it. then draft using their own values and assessment of players. develop them with your own values and principles (all part of CULTURE). and hopefully we can trudge out another year or two developing good habits and maybe the calvary will come through development and trades down the road if things are done properly. but you HAVE to show connor things are changing. the culture is changing or if he sees the same sagging losing culture with no light at the end of the tunnel he will straight up leave. or if you want to risk a quick fix you can trade connor and drain and likely get a boat load of assets and maybe that could turn it around..... BUT you'd STILL need a good and new culture to direct the new assets.

point is it can be very hard to develop this talent that we need in a BAD culture. who knows how far along and how decent a player like pooly or khaira can be if developed in a better culture the last few years. they could very well have developed into a 2nd line winger and a solid third line center perhaps. maybe drake could have turned into a poor man's marchand type player. etc etc and we wouldn't be complaining about lack of talent anymore. it can be hard to understand how poorly players can develop under a bad regime who knows cr@9 about developing players... that's organizational CULTURE.

working hard yes is part of culture, but working together and smartly is a part of culture. hitch has said it many times. these guys lose focus and stop playing for each other andd instead just start playing with themselves... in fact it was kind of a funny quote along the lines of " frustration sets in and we start playing with ourselves" lol. but it's true. the effort is still there but the communication and battling and covering for teammates etc aren't. they're essentially mindlessly skating around hard with no team goal in mind. when you're a tight unit you know how to cover for each other, support each other. stick with it and battle for each other. again it's culture. just like at a workplace. a well oiled machine.

Get rid of OBC?
NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!

Everyone already knew that. But you spent the last 3 years pointing at specific players. Fact is, we can't have a winning culture if we don't win. Period.

And unfortunately, the only way we can do that, aside from ditching OBC, is getting players that are actually...you know...good. Lucic, Cave, Petrovic, Manning...do those sound like players that are gonna help?

The only way OBC will ever be gone is if McDavid threw them all under the bus like Eichel did with "I'm still bitter about McDavid" Murray. Then again, given your penchant to point at players and talk about abstract things like 'culture', you'll spin it that McDavid is poison for going that route.

You go blaming players. Then say you need to turf management and coaches, the same coaches youre using as justification why the players are the blame. Notice the lack of coherency and consistency?
 
Last edited:

BlackDogg

perpetuum defectum
Oct 3, 2015
40,378
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I've been thinking about this since the Canes game.

All this talk about culture had me wonderimg about the whole 'after game celebrations' Carolina does.
While I'm certainly not as opined as Cherry in my dislike for this, I do think it is kind of immature and ridiculous for a professional organization to do. But that's my opinion.
I do, however, believe from what I saw in that one game, that at least most of that team is having fun doing something together. If that isn't bonding a proper culture then what is?

Definitely would cringe if we did something like that. But I'd sure like to see some camaraderie and happiness to this team. Ver rarely has a shot of the bench shown some positivity, let alone smiles or laughter. Not all moments have to be serious.

That would be my first shot at culture. Enjoy what you are doing.
Was thinking that very same thing. Players there probably think its dumb as shit as well, but its good for team coherence and even more its free advertising. Which is for sure what they were going for initially. Watch for bargaining agreements to exclude players from these shenanigans in the future.
 
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RegDunlop

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Was thinking that very same thing. Players there probably think its dumb as **** as well, but its good for team coherence and even more its free advertising. Which is for sure what they were going for initially. Watch for bargaining agreements to exclude players from these shenanigans in the future.

Ha!
Ya you could be right!
I know after a hard@ss game, I wouldnt want to be doing that!
 

RegDunlop

Registered User
Nov 5, 2016
3,291
3,189
Edmonton
In order to build a winning culture, we have to first build a winning culture on our farm teams (Bakersfield Condors (AHL) and Wichita Thunder (ECHL)). Right now, in the organization, the Bakersfield Condors have been the only one to establish this culture.

I think in order to change the culture on the Oilers, you will have to change the culture in Wichita too. Our prospects will spend a lot of development time in the AHL and ECHL hopefully, therefore we should make sure these teams instill the value of winning in our prospects.

The Oilers have been rushing prospects into a toxic environment instead of letting them learn how to win. If the Oilers left their prospects alone in the minors on a successful team, then we would not be facing this situation today.

The culture has to be established throughout the organization, not just in the NHL.

Us oldtimers remember when our farm was the Wachita Wind!

No one there as all the kids were superstars in the NHL those days.

Good times
 

Bangers

Registered User
May 31, 2006
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Most of those guys bolded, including Smyth had their talent come from their work ethic. Smyth would have been nothing more then a 4th liner if he didn't have that work ethic in his DNA.

I don't disagree that work ethic is hugely important, but Smytty had incredible hand-eye coordination. Compare that to Lucic, who was bigger and stronger, but nowhere near as sure in front of goal.
 

BlackDogg

perpetuum defectum
Oct 3, 2015
40,378
40,242
I honestly don't even remember when this team scored a garbage goal last. Nobody is doing anything around the front of the goalie.
 

Stoneman89

Registered User
Feb 8, 2008
27,204
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Us oldtimers remember when our farm was the Wachita Wind!

No one there as all the kids were superstars in the NHL those days.

Good times
You must be even older than me. I remember the Wichita Wind. Did the Wachita franchise happen a decade earlier?:D
 
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