The COVID 19 Thread (Part II - READ MOD WARNING IN OP)

[VanJack]

113,704 NY State COVID cases.
69,000 in NYC.
3,565 dead.
Oneida County, Utica's county, has had 7 new cases since Friday. Total now is since the start is 86 with 2 deaths.
NY State is a war zone. My wife and I are hunkered down in our home/bunker. Our son delivered a large grocery order as we were running short since our shop in early March, the last time my wife and I were anywhere in public other than our yard.He and his wife were wearing masks, NY's latest recommendation, and gloves. They removed every item at the entrance to our garage, wiped the packaging down with disinfectant wipes, instructed us to wear masks and gloves and re-wipe the items as we unpacked them in the house, remove all packaging and repack them in our own food storage bags and and containers for the freezer, cupboards, and fridge, then discard every bag box and packaging in the garage trash and recycling. We're set for another while. Interesting the items you have trouble getting: bread flour, chicken breasts, bread, buttermilk, soft butter, frozen corn and peas, and dish washer packets.

Will you guys please do what you are told? The last thing you want to see is anything the likes of which Donald Trump is doing to our country. It boggles the mind how anyone with more than a 5-yr-old's brain can believe anything this snake oil salesman has to offer.

So gratified that we have this link to the passionate hockey fans in the Mohawk Valley and the good people of Utica. Stay safe down there people!....and as bad as things are in Washington, NY Governor Andrew Cuomo has been a beacon of timely information and hope.

Hopefully he's an example for a new group of principled and compassionate people who will seek election as State Governors; Congressman and even the Presidency. Better days are ahead!

 

[The Vasili Jerry]

I would kill for Vancouver weather. I love visiting Vancouver because I love rainy days and I especially love the amazing sunny days the city has.

I’m so over waking up in late March/early April and seeing a random 5 inches of snow when it should be freaking spring.

I do love me some snow but that’s only because I haven’t lived anywhere with too much of it. I’m betting it gets tiresome pretty quickly.

 

[ChilliBilly]

So i earlier posted that my brother probably has Covid 19. Good news, after about 2 weeks he probably is on the mend. His symptoms are declining. It might just have been the flu, but he is going in for testing to make sure. He is just getting ready to move (really bad time to have bought a new place) and has a ton of complications. But on the good side, as our closest friends pointed out, looks like I am not going to loose my best source for spare parts. We are identical twins, he lives in Sydney australia.

And he is a serious hockey fan, he flew up for game 7 and bought a ticket in 2011. Once in a lifetime he said. I sure hope he is wrong.

Edit - and thx everyone. Thankfully appears to be good news

 

[DL44]

So i earlier posted that my brother probably has Covid 19. Good news, after about 2 weeks he probably is on the mend. His symptoms are declining. It might just have been the flu, but he is going in for testing to make sure. He is just getting ready to move (really bad time to have bought a new place) and has a ton of complications. But on the good side, as our closest friends pointed out, looks like I am not going to loose my best source for spare parts. We are identical twins, he lives in Sydney australia.

And he is a serious hockey fan, he flew up for game 7 and bought a ticket in 2011. Once in a lifetime he said. I sure hope he is wrong.

Edit - and thx everyone. Thankfully appears to be good news

Your brother now has the edge on you in the COVID-immunity department. He's like a superhero now - free to roam again.
Congrats.

 

[Hansen]

So i earlier posted that my brother probably has Covid 19. Good news, after about 2 weeks he probably is on the mend. His symptoms are declining. It might just have been the flu, but he is going in for testing to make sure. He is just getting ready to move (really bad time to have bought a new place) and has a ton of complications. But on the good side, as our closest friends pointed out, looks like I am not going to loose my best source for spare parts. We are identical twins, he lives in Sydney australia.

And he is a serious hockey fan, he flew up for game 7 and bought a ticket in 2011. Once in a lifetime he said. I sure hope he is wrong.

Edit - and thx everyone. Thankfully appears to be good news

Glad to hear it, perfect chance to harvest him for antibodies now

 

[objectiveposter]

I was looking for some gym equpment on craigslist and facebook and the prices are crazy. $500 for a bench? Is it illegal to charge that much right now in BC? or does price gouging only count for essentials like masks and sanitizers?

 

[Seattle Totems]

What will happen with trade and business with China and other countries when this crises is over?

Hopefully this pandemic will wake the world up and western nations will stop putting corporate profit above the health and safety of citizens.

The western world should immediately end all trade and close the borders to all nations that continue to allow wild animal markets to operate. PERIOD. If they do not we will continually suffer from novel viruses and pandemics.

I see this as a major political issue going forward. Either you support health and safety or not.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Your brother now has the edge on you in the COVID-immunity department. He's like a superhero now - free to roam again.
Congrats.

He has not been tested. An interesting conundrum. The test has been estimated to have a 30% false negative result, but only about a 1 % false positive. His symptoms were mild enough that they didn't want to test him, but consistent enough that they said self quarantine for the next 7 years. So if you do get tested, show positive, you have about a 99% chance that you have had it. But are you now immune? That is unclear. Want to be a test case? If you show negative, but show all the symptoms, about a 30 % chance you still have it.

My brother wants to go in in a week or so and checked to see if he has the antibodies. Good idea, BUT do they have reasonable test for this, how accurate is it?

He is talking about volunteering in a hospital if he has antibodies. Personally i think he is nuts. Very nice attitude, but still ...

On the positive side I went golfing today and played horribly. twosomes only (my wife) no touching the flag stick no ball washers and no rakes in the bunkers. It was magical.

 

[Hit the post]

He has not been tested. An interesting conundrum. The test has been estimated to have a 30% false negative result, but only about a 1 % false positive. His symptoms were mild enough that they didn't want to test him, but consistent enough that they said self quarantine for the next 7 years. So if you do get tested, show positive, you have about a 99% chance that you have had it. But are you now immune? That is unclear. Want to be a test case? If you show negative, but show all the symptoms, about a 30 % chance you still have it.

My brother wants to go in in a week or so and checked to see if he has the antibodies. Good idea, BUT do they have reasonable test for this, how accurate is it?

He is talking about volunteering in a hospital if he has antibodies. Personally i think he is nuts. Very nice attitude, but still ...

On the positive side I went golfing today and played horribly. twosomes only (my wife) no touching the flag stick no ball washers and no rakes in the bunkers. It was magical.

I've read that test involves sticking that swab WAY up your nose. Must be tough not coughing/sneezing when getting swab'd. Feel for those people being exposed like that administrating the testing.

 

[DL44]

He has not been tested. An interesting conundrum. The test has been estimated to have a 30% false negative result, but only about a 1 % false positive. His symptoms were mild enough that they didn't want to test him, but consistent enough that they said self quarantine for the next 7 years. So if you do get tested, show positive, you have about a 99% chance that you have had it. But are you now immune? That is unclear. Want to be a test case? If you show negative, but show all the symptoms, about a 30 % chance you still have it.

My brother wants to go in in a week or so and checked to see if he has the antibodies. Good idea, BUT do they have reasonable test for this, how accurate is it?

He is talking about volunteering in a hospital if he has antibodies. Personally i think he is nuts. Very nice attitude, but still ...

On the positive side I went golfing today and played horribly. twosomes only (my wife) no touching the flag stick no ball washers and no rakes in the bunkers. It was magical.

I think all those 15 min tests are antibody tests. Don't tell you if you are currently positive or negative... Just that you once had it.

The 96 hr wait tests tell you where you at...
(My understanding anyways)

 

[Diversification]

Hopefully this pandemic will wake the world up and western nations will stop putting corporate profit above the health and safety of citizens.

The western world should immediately end all trade and close the borders to all nations that continue to allow wild animal markets to operate. PERIOD. If they do not we will continually suffer from novel viruses and pandemics.

I see this as a major political issue going forward. Either you support health and safety or not.

For what it's worth, the outbreak in NY originated from a European strain of Covid-19 based on genetic markers. Something to consider before we all jump to conclusions.

source: Coronavirus Live Updates: Studies Show N.Y. Outbreak Originated in Europe

 

[mriswith]

For what it's worth, the outbreak in NY originated from a European strain of Covid-19 based on genetic markers. Something to consider before we all jump to conclusions.

source: Coronavirus Live Updates: Studies Show N.Y. Outbreak Originated in Europe

Jump to conclusions is an odd phrase to use, as is using the word "originated".

Covid originated in China, either from the wet markets or leaked from the virology lab that collects local coronaviruses and studies exactly these kinds of crossover events. Their own virology lab published a study in 2019 documenting antibodies to novel coronaviruses in local populations indicating multiple and ongoing crossover events of coronaviruses from the high risk areas near where the wet markets are and documented the risk of future crossover events and sars-like outbreaks.

Either scenario is a very political issue. You either have a horrid cultural practice in local wet markets that is proven repeatedly to be a global health risk, or you have the biological equivalent of a Chernobyl event on a global scale.

Where the virus mutated afterwards doesn't seem important.

 

[VanJack]

I leave 'playing the blame game' to guys like Trump. It's 'China's fault'; the WHO's fault; it's the Governors who are hoarding medical supplies; It's companies like 3M who are exporting masks; it's the Democrats; did I miss anybody?

But the bottom line is that this virus could eventually kill up a million people with hundreds of millions more sickened worldwide. And the U.S. so far has the worst record of combating it.

And before it's over, it will have cost the world economy trillions of dollars. And at the very least will trigger a recession, with the outside possibility of an outright depression.

So the only silver lining to all this misery and worry, is if the world learns anything from it. Every country and its peoples need to look in the mirror and decide what they can do as governments and individuals to make significant change.

Otherwise, we'll be back in same Pandemic paradox in a few years,

 

[mriswith]

I leave 'playing the blame game' to guys like Trump. It's 'China's fault'; the WHO's fault; it's the Governors who are hoarding medical supplies; It's companies like 3M who are exporting masks; it's the Democrats; did I miss anybody?

But the bottom line is that this virus could eventually kill up a million people with hundreds of millions more sickened worldwide. And the U.S. so far has the worst record of combating it.

And before it's over, it will have cost the world economy trillions of dollars. And at the very least will trigger a recession, with the outside possibility of an outright depression.

So the only silver lining to all this misery and worry, is if the world learns anything from it. Every country and its peoples need to look in the mirror and decide what they can do as governments and individuals to make significant change.

Otherwise, we'll be back in same Pandemic paradox in a few years,

I don't understand what makes it a blame game to point out that the virus originated in China. I don't mean to make any sort of political statement with that sentence and I've seen a bunch of other people say similar things as you, I'm just genuinely puzzled why people resent that statement or are uncomfortable with it.

To me it's just a fact that pairs with the other fact that this is literally the 2nd pandemic in two decades to come presumably from animal crossover events that are, so far, very unique to China due to the type of animals, the wet markets, and the proximity of locals to the animal reservoirs containing these viruses. Their virology centre studying these outbreaks has published scientific studies documenting the same thing.

If we ignore the source and nothing changes around the source of the virus, then it will all happen again. If this started in Canada in the exact same way with our scientists documenting the same things happening in Canada, I would hope that people would be outraged and demanding that our government act immediately to shut it all down permanently.

Certainly there are many things we could have done better and certain world leaders performed way better/worse than others, and there are a lot of things we can do to be better prepared for the next pandemic, but I don't understand why we would focus on looking in the mirror as the solution when there is an epicenter of two global pandemics with a very clear sequence of causational events. Once this pandemic is over, the risk factors that created this one and sars in 2003 will still be just as active and present as there were before.

To me, that means the bottom line is that if nothing changes, if the wet markets continue and the rural populations still coexist with the high risk animal reservoirs located nearby, it's only a matter of time before another pandemic arrives, courtesy of another animal crossover event from those high risk animals. And maybe the next one is even more contagious and deadlier...

 

[Diversification]

Jump to conclusions is an odd phrase to use, as is using the word "originated".

...

Where the virus mutated afterwards doesn't seem important.

Jumping to conclusions is apt in the context of the post I replied to, which suggested that closing borders was the answer in future. What the paper in BioRxiv finds (not yet passed peer review, so caveat emptor) is that Covid-19 came to NY largely via Europe. Meaning that slamming shut the door to China would have accomplished nothing in retrospect. Not unless every country in the world did so simultaneously and early on.

In a follow up post, you state that you don't see the politics in finger pointing China at this point. The politics comes in the form of backlash to Asians everywhere that having nothing to do with it. The politics comes from reinforcing ugly stereotypes and preconceptions that are just under the surface and have now found an outlet.

There will be a time and a place to forensically work out the origin of Covid-19 and to institute changes in international and domestic policy. Now is not that time precisely because of the politics.

 

[mriswith]

Jumping to conclusions is apt in the context of the post I replied to, which suggested that closing borders was the answer in future. What the paper in BioRxiv finds (not yet passed peer review, so caveat emptor) is that Covid-19 came to NY largely via Europe. Meaning that slamming shut the door to China would have accomplished nothing in retrospect. Not unless every country in the world did so simultaneously and early on.

This is exactly what the post you replied to was saying to do, every western nation needs to shut the door until they shut down the source of two global pandemics. Also according to the article you posted, the door was slammed shut to travelers from China weeks before the outbreak in NY so it's impossible to say that the travel restrictions "accomplished nothing in retrospect".

Also the point isn't to restrict borders for the sake of restricting borders, or to prevent spread after the virus has emerged. The point is to use international pressure to force the CCP to make the obvious decision and shut down the high risk disease vectors that they should have shut down in 2003.

In a follow up post, you state that you don't see the politics in finger pointing China at this point. The politics comes in the form of backlash to Asians everywhere that having nothing to do with it. The politics comes from reinforcing ugly stereotypes and preconceptions that are just under the surface and have now found an outlet.

No, I said that I don't see what makes it a blame game to state that this virus came from China. That is just a fact. I also said that I am not trying to make a political statement with that sentence.

A political statement would be that it is important at the bare minimum that their government be held responsible for preventing further outbreaks by taking the appropriate action as I do think the CCP is responsible for the outbreak having already caused one before and having had ample warning from their own virology labs that this will happen again.

I think it's important to shut down the racists when they emerge, but it's also important to not let the government responsible for this outbreak off of the hook, particularly when it is guaranteed that there will be more of these in the future if action isn't taken now.

There will be a time and a place to forensically work out the origin of Covid-19 and to institute changes in international and domestic policy. Now is not that time precisely because of the politics.

We already know the origin, or at least it is limited to two very specific options, which is why it's weird to me that a lot of people are skirting it.

 

[Diversification]

This is exactly what the post you replied to was saying to do, every western nation needs to shut the door until they shut down the source of two global pandemics. Also according to the article you posted, the door was slammed shut to travelers from China weeks before the outbreak in NY so it's impossible to say that the travel restrictions "accomplished nothing in retrospect".

...

A political statement would be that it is important at the bare minimum that their government be held responsible for preventing further outbreaks by taking the appropriate action as I do think the CCP is responsible for the outbreak having already caused one before and having had ample warning from their own virology labs that this will happen again.

I think it's important to shut down the racists when they emerge, but it's also important to not let the government responsible for this outbreak off of the hook, particularly when it is guaranteed that there will be more of these in the future if action isn't taken now.


We already know the origin, or at least it is limited to two very specific options, which is why it's weird to me that a lot of people are skirting it.

It did not accomplish the desired goal of preventing widespread infection in the US. At least in NY, where it's the worst, the horse was already out of the barn as evidenced by the Europe-specific mutations found in the strain present in NY. To say that we can get every country to multilaterally close travel from China is to misunderstand how difficult such an undertaking would be. Look at the UN and it's glacial decision making process as Exhibit A.

The difficulty is tha,t at this point in time, forcing China to take the blame (they are guilty, no argument) is counterproductive. People are scared and people are angry and the economy is in shambles. It's not racism that will lead to backlash so much as human nature and the need to find a scapegoat.

Just to give you an example of what we're dealing with, one of Google's top queries a few weeks back was "can you get coronavirus from eating Chinese food?". That's not so much racism as it is stupidity and ignorance. This sentiment, when fueled by fear, leads to bad outcomes all around.

I think your concern is that China will somehow 'get away' with this. There is no way that will happen. They may try, but the evidence of origin is irrefutable. They will - in their face-saving way - institute changes so it won't happen again. But if you're expecting some sort of mea culpa from the Communist Party, that's not going to happen. Face is too important to them.

 

[RandV]

I don't understand what makes it a blame game to point out that the virus originated in China. I don't mean to make any sort of political statement with that sentence and I've seen a bunch of other people say similar things as you, I'm just genuinely puzzled why people resent that statement or are uncomfortable with it.

The only relevant point to that discussion is an asshole like Donald Trump tries to rename it the "China virus" at one point as a political game to redirect blame from his own mishandling of the pandemic, and out in society racists assholes and/or people with mental disorders are emboldened to verbally and even physically assault completely unrelated Asian Americans in a surge of hate crimes.

These are facts just as much as the rest of the things you said, but more specifically this set of facts is "why people resent that statement". Everyone knows it originated in China's wet markets, they have a lot of responsibility and the global community will have to hold them accountable to shutting down the source. But when Trump starts saying "China virus" it is 100% political and it throws gasoline on the fire of reactionary idiots acting out locally.

 

[mriswith]

It did not accomplish the desired goal of preventing widespread infection in the US.

I don't see how that was ever a goal. At a certain point in February anyone in their right mind knew it was only a matter of when, not if, for every major city in the world.

We can't say it failed when it happened weeks before the outbreak started and when we know that was the original vector for the European cities. For all we know it prevented multiple other major metro areas from being like NY already, or making NY worse, or w/e. I find the sentiment "travel bans from effected areas didn't work" to be a really weird stance to take.

The difficulty is tha,t at this point in time, forcing China to take the blame (they are guilty, no argument) is counterproductive. People are scared and people are angry and the economy is in shambles. It's not racism that will lead to backlash so much as human nature and the need to find a scapegoat.

Just to give you an example of what we're dealing with, one of Google's top queries a few weeks back was "can you get coronavirus from eating Chinese food?". That's not so much racism as it is stupidity and ignorance. This sentiment, when fueled by fear, leads to bad outcomes all around.

I see your point, it sucks for anyone unrelated to the incident having to be the recipient of the stupidity and ignorance.

It also sucks for Chinese citizens, it's not their fault their government is insanely corrupt and then they have to bear the repercussions both domestically and abroad.

On the other hand I think it would be healthy for the western world to pull away from their dependence on China after this and having some anger towards the CCP is the only way to make it eventually happen.

Ideally people's anger would be concentrated on the CCP rather than the Chinese people or any random asian citizens but I get your point that this isn't how the ignorant unwashed masses operate.

I think your concern is that China will somehow 'get away' with this. There is no way that will happen. They may try, but the evidence of origin is irrefutable. They will - in their face-saving way - institute changes so it won't happen again. But if you're expecting some sort of mea culpa from the Communist Party, that's not going to happen. Face is too important to them.

My concern is another pandemic. I don't think China will change anything unless forced to by the international community, in which case it's inevitable that another pandemic is around the corner, and the next one could be a lot worse.

I don't care about "punishment" for punishment's sake, but they didn't change anything after Sars and rumour is the wet markets are already back up and running right now so I have little faith in them to actually make the changes necessary unless forced to.

The only relevant point to that discussion is an asshole like Donald Trump tries to rename it the "China virus" at one point as a political game to redirect blame from his own mishandling of the pandemic, and out in society racists assholes and/or people with mental disorders are emboldened to verbally and even physically assault completely unrelated Asian Americans in a surge of hate crimes.

These are facts just as much as the rest of the things you said, but more specifically this set of facts is "why people resent that statement".

Racist idiots started those incidents more than a month before trump called it the china virus. If people are getting uncomfortable with someone pointing out that the virus came from China when the discussion is about how the virus originated in Europe, then I can see how that went over my head because that's a huge stretch to me. But ok, I get it, even though I still think it's important to be clear on how this started until the factors causing this have been stomped out.

Everyone knows it originated in China's wet markets, they have a lot of responsibility and the global community will have to hold them accountable to shutting down the source.

Do they? Will we? I want to believe but I'm less confident than you are.

 

[Bad Goalie]

The only relevant point to that discussion is an asshole like Donald Trump tries to rename it the "China virus" at one point as a political game to redirect blame from his own mishandling of the pandemic, and out in society racists assholes and/or people with mental disorders are emboldened to verbally and even physically assault completely unrelated Asian Americans in a surge of hate crimes.

These are facts just as much as the rest of the things you said, but more specifically this set of facts is "why people resent that statement". Everyone knows it originated in China's wet markets, they have a lot of responsibility and the global community will have to hold them accountable to shutting down the source. But when Trump starts saying "China virus" it is 100% political and it throws gasoline on the fire of reactionary idiots acting out locally.

An even more heinous racist act came from the asshole(s) who flooded the internet early on with the false information that Afro-Americans need not worry about COVID-19 because something in their genetics made them immune to it. I can only imagine those despicable scumbags are partying over the more recent COVID news that people of color are dying at rates far outnumbering whites, e.g. 7 times the rate in Chicago where the black population only makes up 30% of the population. There are a multitude of socioeconomic and health related issues along with a failing health system to explain a lot of this, but you have to believe some of it was due to that social media campaign.

 

[RandV]

Racist idiots started those incidents more than a month before trump called it the china virus. If people are getting uncomfortable with someone pointing out that the virus came from China when the discussion is about how the virus originated in Europe, then I can see how that went over my head because that's a huge stretch to me. But ok, I get it, even though I still think it's important to be clear on how this started until the factors causing this have been stomped out.

Yes these things are going to happen regardless, but there's a reason I refereed to it as 'throwing gas on the fire' When tthis is being spread on national television from the office of the United States President it's only going to increase and embolden offenders. It's not something you can take an accurate measurement on but under the Trump Presidency the US has seen a huge uptick in open public racism, in both adults and children, and hate crimes.

It falls under the category of stochastic terrorism:

noun

the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted: The lone-wolf attack was apparently influenced by the rhetoric of stochastic terrorism.

But arguing about the merits of this concept is beside the point, which is this is why people get 'upset' when Trump tries to label it "the China virus".

 

[Boose Brudreau]

 

[Fatass]

Yes these things are going to happen regardless, but there's a reason I refereed to it as 'throwing gas on the fire' When tthis is being spread on national television from the office of the United States President it's only going to increase and embolden offenders. It's not something you can take an accurate measurement on but under the Trump Presidency the US has seen a huge uptick in open public racism, in both adults and children, and hate crimes.

It falls under the category of stochastic terrorism:



But arguing about the merits of this concept is beside the point, which is this is why people get 'upset' when Trump tries to label it "the China virus".

Didn’t the Chinese government vilify the doctor in
Wuhan who first said (he believed in December 2019) there was a novel Coronavirus in his practice? i think they even made the doctor sign some documentation that he was wrong, or something like that. Then the guy actually died from Covid 19. It’s pretty terrible the way the Chinese government treated that doctor, don’t you think? Trump is a clown, but the Chinese government was not honest, and even attacked the doctor who first said something about Covid 19.
Anger erupts after virus whistleblower doctor dies

 

[VanJack]

Blame China if it makes you feel any better....but Trump was warned about this virus back in January and dismissed it. So it had a chance to emigrate from China to Europe, and from there take hold in the U.S.

But that's the just the reality of the 'anti-intellectual' virus that grips the U.S. these days. Doctors and health experts with university and research training are dismissed, while guys like Trump; the NRA; and bible-thumping preachers are the new intelligentsia'.

It takes a Pandemic for people to realize that these dedicated experts who spend their entire lives studying viruses and germs, aren't the ''nattering nabobs of negativity' they 're dismissed as.

But will attitudes change down there, once this nightmare has run its course? Not likely.

 

[Hockeyphysio]

Too many people out today and on ferries. I hope people don't think we are out of the woods already.

The hospital I work at just locked down one of our wards for a possible ward wide covid exposure.. yikes. Had my second test this week, it is unpleasant..