The Cam Ward RAGE POST. Rage Against the Machine

[tarheelhockey]

Hmmm...I must have been at a different game then. I could have sworn the Canes lost that game.

And you hold that against Ward? A game where he stopped 36 shots, allowing only a breakaway (shorthanded, at that) and we didn't score in the shootout?

Does anyone actually hold last night against him? A game where he stopped 34 shots, allowing only a Sharp breakaway and a Hossa backhand on a turnover right in front of the net... and we didn't score in the shootout again?

He never had a chance to win those games. It's completely unreasonable to basically say he should have shut out the Kings and only allowed one goal to the Blackhawks. No goalie in the league could live up to those expectations.

 

[golfpro827]

He never had a chance to win those games. It's completely unreasonable to basically say he should have shut out the Kings and only allowed one goal to the Blackhawks. No goalie in the league could live up to those expectations.

But heres the thing. He did give us a chance to win those games.

Which is why I don't get the hate on him currently.

 

[ONO94]

Strange fact for the year so far....3 goalies paid more than Cam--Luongo, King Henrik and Quick--all have worse save % than Cam.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

And you hold that against Ward? A game where he stopped 36 shots, allowing only a breakaway (shorthanded, at that) and we didn't score in the shootout?

No, and I never said that. I want to separate some of the Ward hate in these threads from what I am saying. I am not banging on Ward here at all, I'm just stating what I think the Canes need to be successful. He played well kept them in the game and gave them a chance to win, but IMO (and you may disagree), Cam and/or Anton will need to absolutely steal a few games this year (rob guys on a breakaway, stop the impossible, etc..to pull out a win that may not be deserved) in order for this team to make the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough offensively or defensively to make the playoffs if they just have a good goalie that keeps them in it.

It's obviously only 1 piece of what they need, and it may not be fair to them, but my view is that is what the Canes will need as the season goes on. Do I expect it for every close game? Hell no, as you said, that is unreasonable. But to me, it's also unreasonable to say that he (or Anton) can't win a few of those games as the year goes on. Even with that, unless the skates pull their weight, they still won't make the playoffs, so this is not an either-or type scenario.

 

[golfpro827]

No, and I never said that. I want to separate some of the Ward hate in these threads from what I am saying. I am not banging on Ward here at all, I'm just stating what I think the Canes need to be successful. He played well kept them in the game and gave them a chance to win, but IMO (and you may disagree), Cam and/or Anton will need to absolutely steal a few games this year (rob guys on a breakaway, stop the impossible, etc..to pull out a win that may not be deserved) in order for this team to make the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough offensively or defensively to make the playoffs if they just have a good goalie that keeps them in it.

It's obviously only 1 piece of what they need, and it may not be fair to them, but my view is that is what the Canes will need as the season goes on. Do I expect it for every close game? Hell no, as you said, that is unreasonable. But to me, it's also unreasonable to say that he (or Anton) can't win a few of those games as the year goes on.

Absolutely.

I would say Ward stole a point last night and you could maybe throw in stole a point against LA, but Quick was just as good.

If we can get 5-10 points in games where we get dominated and play like crap, we will be in the hunt.

 

[tarheelhockey]

No, and I never said that. I want to separate some of the Ward hate in these threads from what I am saying. I am not banging on Ward here at all, I'm just stating what I think the Canes need to be successful. He played well kept them in the game and gave them a chance to win, but IMO (and you may disagree), Cam and/or Anton will need to absolutely steal a few games this year (rob guys on a breakaway, stop the impossible, etc..to pull out a win that may not be deserved) in order for this team to make the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough offensively or defensively to make the playoffs if they just have a good goalie that keeps them in it.

It's obviously only 1 piece of what they need, and it may not be fair to them, but my view is that is what the Canes will need as the season goes on. Do I expect it for every close game? Hell no, as you said, that is unreasonable. But to me, it's also unreasonable to say that he (or Anton) can't win a few of those games as the year goes on. Even with that, unless the skates pull their weight, they still won't make the playoffs, so this is not an either-or type scenario.

I guess to me, that's basically the same thing as saying that this is not a playoff team. I don't even see them coming particularly close if they need high-end shutouts to beat decent teams. Playoff teams take performances like the one against LA or last night and turn them into regulation Ws, not SOLs.

 

[Identity404]

Cam is an above average starting goaltender in the league, but paid like an elite one. I think was really makes Cam polarizing is that he is wildly inconsistent. All goaltenders let in bad goals, but most don't switch between two extremes of WOW and WTF did I just watch between periods and games... Maybe Carey Price can compete with Ward in this regard. At the season level his body of work is Above average, and his stats seem to back that up. I think he does get too much flack around here, but than again, should we expect greatness from him since he is paid like a great one? Probably not, JR and co. were responsible for giving him that contract...

I have to say that he looks a lot slower so far this season. He might be battling a groin injury right now, or maybe just lost a step from all of his injuries? Since he is a positional goaltender he doesn't need quickness to be completely effective, but it doesn't bode well for this team and our playoff chances in the long run... Then again, this could also just be in my head.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I guess to me, that's basically the same thing as saying that this is not a playoff team. I don't even see them coming particularly close if they need high-end shutouts to beat decent teams. Playoff teams take performances like the one against LA or last night and turn them into regulation Ws, not SOLs.

I mostly agree. I not convinced the Canes are a playoff team, so I guess it could saying the same thing. But I do think they have the ability to be a bubble team, and in order to be on the right side of the bubble, they are going to need the goalie to steal a few (IMO) and they are going to need their other top players to come up bigger than they are right now. I guess that's the nature of being a bubble team though, there are a number of little things that have to go right and not much margin for error.

 

[Ole Gil]

I guess to me, that's basically the same thing as saying that this is not a playoff team. I don't even see them coming particularly close if they need high-end shutouts to beat decent teams. Playoff teams take performances like the one against LA or last night and turn them into regulation Ws, not SOLs.

Most teams, including most playoff teams, will lose to Chicago in regulation regardless of how they play. The thing with playing a great game is that the other team also played a great game. And they are the best team in the league.

In the end, the Canes played LA and CHI playing well even for 65 minutes. And if they play that game against 24 of the other teams in the league, it'll be a win on most nights.

It's not finding ways to get 2 points instead of 1 against Chicago. It'll be about getting 2 points against the 6 teams in the division not named Pittsburgh that'll decide if we're a playoff team or not.

 

[bluedevil58*]

So we will just wait for the excuses to start rolling in for when we lsoe to NYI, NYR, NJ, Florida, Tampa Bay and so on. There comes a point where we have to find a way to win and not lose to "elite" teams. Yes' it's good we stay competitive but in the end we must find ways to win. Cam is not all to blame here.

But I will stand by my argument that if you make 6.7m/year and you're a goalie. You have to be a show stopper and pretty close to it. Not "top 15". I realize he will never be a Hasek, Brodeuer, or a Roy. Those were the cream of the crop in my opinion. But....I only ask that he earns his keep because in the end that contract is stopping us from getting Cam adequate help on the blue line. I know his contract is not his fault. But for 6.7m a year you show up every night and not have crazy inconsistencies. It's like I watch every game wondering what kind of Ward will show up tonight. Will he let in 5-6 goals and 3 softies or will he actually be good.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's not finding ways to get 2 points instead of 1 against Chicago. It'll be about getting 2 points against the 6 teams in the division not named Pittsburgh that'll decide if we're a playoff team or not.

The thing is, with our organizational history it has often been about missing that extra 1 point here and there.

2007, we went 6-8 in OT and missed the playoffs by 4 points.

2008, we went 6-6 in OT and missed the playoffs by 1 points.

2009, we went 9-7 in OT and made the playoffs by 4 points.

2010, we went 8-11 in OT and missed the playoffs by 8 points.

2011, we went 11-11 in OT and missed the playoffs by 2 ponits.

2012, we went 4-16 in OT and missed the playoffs by 10 points.

2013 we were of course garbage.

We're sitting here in October of 2013 talking about how we're a bubble team and need everything to go right to make the playoffs. And we're 0-3 in OT already.

I get that we would help ourselves tremendously by not blowing winnable games against weaker competition. But again, the teams that make the playoffs are often the ones who find a way to score on that OT power play, don't give up shorthanded breakaways to spoil a shutout, don't let opponents cram the puck down their throats with only seconds left on the clock. Constantly leaving points on the table in spite of ourselves is a big part of why we end up a game out of the playoffs over and over.

 

[Ole Gil]

Re Goaltending...

Ray Emery was 17-1 with a 1.9gaa and .922 sv%.

I assume he's basically the same guy he was last year. We'll see what stats he puts up this year. That gap should show the absolutely massive effect who you're playing with has on goalie stats.

Talking goaltending stats without context is meaningless.

 

[Ole Gil]

The thing is, with our organizational history it has often been about missing that extra 1 point here and there.

I get that we would help ourselves tremendously by not blowing winnable games against weaker competition. But again, the teams that make the playoffs are often the ones who find a way to score on that OT power play, don't give up shorthanded breakaways to spoil a shutout, don't let opponents cram the puck down their throats with only seconds left on the clock. Constantly leaving points on the table in spite of ourselves is a big part of why we end up a game out of the playoffs over and over.

I hear you. I'm just looking at it from a bit further back. In the end, it doesn't matter how you get your points (outside of Tiebreakers), and 7pts in 7 games is what the team was looking for, I think.

What's key, is that they play good enough in our non-divisional games so that winning the divisional games is all that is required to finish ahead of the divisional foes.

 

[cptjeff]

.

But I will stand by my argument that if you make 6.7m/year and you're a goalie. You have to be a show stopper and pretty close to it.

How about judging him on his actual play rather than scoring him against your imaginary concept of what a $6.6 million (his actual salary this year, cap is 6.3) goalie should be? The contract isn't great, but from the posts here, you would think he's been playing like LaBarbera. No goalie can pitch a shutout every night, and I'd argue that he's been keeping the Canes in many games they shouldn't be in for years. His numbers aren't always great, but he's behind a defense that would make most starters in the league look like idiots. He has been stealing games. He has been stealing points. What more do you want of him? He probably adds around 15 points a season that we wouldn't have if we were starting a $4 million starter- hell, Dubnyk is costing the Oilers $3.75. What more do you want from him?

 

[Lazyking]

Goaltenders sucked ass in the 80s.

Meh, the position hadn't evolved to the butterfly yet, it was something they didn't know or hurt them too much because the pads sucked. Not to mention that I don't see any highlights of blocked shots.

The game has continued to change that doesn't mean the players were awful.. Example being Wayne Gretzky probably wouldn't be as prolific if he came up in this era.

 

[Lazyking]

No, and I never said that. I want to separate some of the Ward hate in these threads from what I am saying. I am not banging on Ward here at all, I'm just stating what I think the Canes need to be successful. He played well kept them in the game and gave them a chance to win, but IMO (and you may disagree), Cam and/or Anton will need to absolutely steal a few games this year (rob guys on a breakaway, stop the impossible, etc..to pull out a win that may not be deserved) in order for this team to make the playoffs. I don't think they are good enough offensively or defensively to make the playoffs if they just have a good goalie that keeps them in it.

It's obviously only 1 piece of what they need, and it may not be fair to them, but my view is that is what the Canes will need as the season goes on. Do I expect it for every close game? Hell no, as you said, that is unreasonable. But to me, it's also unreasonable to say that he (or Anton) can't win a few of those games as the year goes on. Even with that, unless the skates pull their weight, they still won't make the playoffs, so this is not an either-or type scenario.

I agree with your premise that we need a goalie to steal games at least until the first line gets going but one, Ward and Khudobin have stolen points for us already and two, I don't think there is many goalies out there that can steal games... five or less.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If we're going to compare him to an 80s goalie, I'd look more at Mike Liut (former Whaler who peaked early and quietly settled into a solid, non-HOF career) or Bill Ranford (remembered only for his Conn Smythe, played respectably on a lot of losing teams).

 

[cptjeff]

Meh, the position hadn't evolved to the butterfly yet, it was something they didn't know or hurt them too much because the pads sucked. Not to mention that I don't see any highlights of blocked shots.

Leg pads were just as protective in the 80s (though chest protectors weren't anywhere close). The issue was that they were heavy as hell, and got heavier as the game wore on. The kind of quick up and down in and out of the butterfly you see today was impossible due to the weight. You could make butterfly stops, and goalies did make them, but once down, you couldn't move to a different position very quickly. The quick movement side to side you see today would have been very difficult as well.

Which is a big reason the wooden stick advocates are nuts. Yes, shooters got better sticks, but goalies got far better equipment as well.

 

[Lazyking]

If we're going to compare him to an 80s goalie, I'd look more at Mike Liut (former Whaler who peaked early and quietly settled into a solid, non-HOF career) or Bill Ranford (remembered only for his Conn Smythe, played respectably on a lot of losing teams).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/liut.html

Looking at the numbers, Mike Liut was fantastic for good part of his career.. That z-score in 80-81

 

[Ole Gil]

It's almost impossible to judge how good goalies on mediocre to bad teams are.

What would Olaf Kolzig's career have looked like if he were in Detroit his whole career? Who knows?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It's almost impossible to judge how good goalies on mediocre to bad teams are.

On the other hand, is there an example of a good goalie moving from a 'bad team' to a 'good team', and having their stats get better overnight? Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of is Brian Elliot to the Blues...and even that proved to be a prolonged hot streak.

I say this because the other wildly popular conjecture also has very few examples: 'if he were on a better team, he would get more points'. The only example of that I can think of is James Neal (side note: anyone remember the Pens fans who were convinced that Sutter would completely replace Staal's production?).

Not that either of these are wrong...just that, for such popular opinions, they actually have relatively few real world examples.

 

[golfpro827]

Expecting him to play up to his contact should be on JR and others involved in doing it.

If I'm an NHL player and have never scored 20 goals and then someone pays me $8 million a season, that's not my fault (perhaps the DiPeietro contract would be a better analogy). And fans shouldn't be mad at me when I don't out perform myself based on a contract.

Bottom line to me is we should only compare Ward to what we know he can do. He's never been one of the Mike Smith types where goes 10 periods without a goal and then gives up 2 per period for 10 periods. He's always been good enough to steal a few games but overall, he's just a solid guy. Honestly the only time I've ever seen him insanely hot was the 2006 run.

Ward's contract is overpaid. I don't think anyone can argue that. But to simply say "he's making $X, he has to be better" to me isn't right. If anything the thread should be "JR why did you give Ward $X?"

Now a situation like Samsonov a few years ago or LaRose recently who earned their contracts based on great seasons and then stunk, yes, that's their fault. But Ward never at any point, except the 2006 playoffs, earned that contract. To me, he is a $3.5 million a year guy. But it's not his fault he was given what he was.

 

[Brock Anton]

PETE DAWGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Is that what you really want?

 

[tarheelhockey]

PETE DAWGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Is that what you really want?

I swear to god I heard calls for Peters last night, after Chicago's second goal.

Can you imagine Peters playing that period instead of Ward? It would've been 5-0.

 

[What the Faulk]

Roberto Luongo was excellent for a stretch when moving from Florida to Vancouver.