The Butterfly vs. The Trap

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Baemon Severson*, Oct 27, 2011.

View Users: View Users
  1. Baemon Severson*

    Baemon Severson* N1CO!!!

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    7,206
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    It's a common opinion that Lemaire and the Devils "ruined" hockey with the trap. I want to know why Roy's advancement of the butterfly doesnt get the same amount of attention. Thoughts?
     
  2. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,317
    Likes Received:
    1,333
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    The cynic in me says it's because "the trap" disproportionately helped small market American teams, the teams the traditional hockey media loves to hate on.
     
  3. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    A goalie making a save on a good scoring opportunity is a lot more entertaining than a defensive system that limits good scoring opportunities
     
    Fixxer likes this.
  4. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    57,954
    Likes Received:
    33,939
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    The Triangle
    It's a great topic as far as reasons for the decline in scoring.

    IMO, the butterfly reduced the entertainment value of the goaltending position. It's just not as fun to watch as the old stand-up style, but you can only expect goalies to use the most effective technique available.

    The trap reduced the entertainment value of entire games. It didn't just reduce scoring; it reduced scoring chances. It also slowed down the game quite a bit and was hand-in-glove with the uptick in obstruction. Between the two, obstruction was worse than the trap -- but they were so closely correlated that it was almost a single issue.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,317
    Likes Received:
    1,333
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    I disagree when the goalie is a modern butterfly goalie. Not much entertaining about getting into position and letting the puck hit you.

    Modern goaltending techniques have made the shot from a player streaking down the wing almost obsolete, allowing defenses to collapse in front of the net (which further limits good scoring opportunities).
     
  6. saskganesh

    saskganesh Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    2,368
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    96
    Location:
    the Annex
    Northern New Jersey is a small market? OK.
     
  7. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,317
    Likes Received:
    1,333
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    Who mentioned New Jersey? The reason the trap was so criticized is because the majority of teams used it, especially small market ones.

    As for NJ, they had average to below average payroll and revenues for most of the dead puck era. So as far as hockey goes, yes, they were a fairly small market team.

    For the traditional hockey media, suburban NJ was an "nontraditional" hockey market, though not as evil as those in the (shudder) South.

    Since we're talking about NJ, I just can't help but think that if the Toronto Maple Leafs or Montreal Canadiens won multiple Cups using the Trap, it would be praised as "great defense by a great team." Oh wait, it actually was praised as "great defense by a great team" when the Canadiens won 4 Cups in a row using it in the late 70s...
     
  8. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I agree that butterfly reduced the entertainment value, but would you really prefer trap/obstruction with no butterfly goalies over the current state of the NHL?

    (Kind of a difficult concept because we don't know if the trap would work without butterfly goaltending)
     
  9. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,317
    Likes Received:
    1,333
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    I don't see why the Trap (a legal defensive system that is criticized for sucking creativity out of the game but legal nonetheless) is lumped together with obstruction (cheating that used to be tolerated for some reason).

    IMO, the Trap itself isn't boring when one team is playing it - there is nothing inherently boring about forcing the other team into making mistakes and counterattacking off the rush. However, it's extremely boring when two opponents are both playing the trap - neither team is willing to make the first move. I might be a little biased on this one though. ;)

    I actually did find hockey in the mid 90s to be more entertaining when there were fewer scoring chances than today but the goals that were scored were "prettier" and more skilled rather than taking advantage of the percentages. The late 90s/early 00s were the worst of both worlds with the majority of teams trapping, everyone obstructing, and the majority of goalies played the robotic big pads butterfly style.
     
  10. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    6,448
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Trap probably does get treated unfairly because of obstruction. They were both reduced/taken out of the game at the same time so they get lumped together.

    You also make a good point about one vs. two teams playing the trap. I was plenty entertained by that Habs-Caps playoff series a couple years ago. (However, it did require a very good butterfly goaltender to accomplish that feat)

    I still think that if wide-open hockey is played by both teams it is so entertaining that the style of goaltending will not even be a factor (in terms of entertainment value).
     
  11. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    18,469
    Likes Received:
    1,648
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Further Back

    The trap as played from the mid 1990's onwards represents the dumming down of the defenses used by the Canadiens under Toe Blake and Scotty Bowman.

    Jacques Lemaire simplified the defenses to the talent at hand. Key point is that Lemaire is the only one who understands and coaches the offensive elements of the trap - evidenced by the increase in the Devils goal scoring after he took over as coach last season despite missing a key offensive player - Zach Parise.
     
  12. Eisen

    Eisen Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2009
    Messages:
    12,343
    Likes Received:
    634
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Duesseldorf
    But Jersey was never really far off the league average in that aera
    http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm
    With the rest I agree though.
    I wonder if Jersey would've been so looked down for applying the trap upon if it wasn't for Gretzky`s ridiculous Micky Mouse quote.
     
  13. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    47,317
    Likes Received:
    1,333
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Awards:
    If we are getting into the different versions of the trap, I'd say that the key difference with Lemaire's system is that he does not allow his players to take risks on the counterattack and specifically does not want his defensemen joining the rush.

    In those senses, Larry Robinson's version of the trap in NJ was much closer to what the Canadiens did in the 70s.

    The Devils offense increased last year mainly because the previous coach was a joke.
     
  14. jkrx

    jkrx Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,337
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There is also the swedish version (it's called 1-3-1 in sweden) which also allows offense in a much more varied way than what the "small market"-teams did during the dead puck era.

    In my opinion, it wasn't the trap that was bad for hockey it was the league and its poor talent pool that made way for the dead puck era.
     
  15. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    57,954
    Likes Received:
    33,939
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    The Triangle
    I don't think the two are related at all.
     
  16. sawchuk1971

    sawchuk1971 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    46
    i think the montreal canadiens, under lemaire, played a similar trap system during the 1984 playoffs.....
     
  17. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,071
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Home Page:
    i don't think this is an either/or question.

    the trap made it easier for butterfly goalies to flourish. if you clogged up the middle of the ice and kept attackers to the outside, blocking goalies would have an easier time with outside shots.

    at the same time, the butterfly made the trap a viable strategy. if you made it so that every goal from the perimeter was a "bad goal," then defenders have an easier time playing the percentages and giving up the long shot if it meant the guy couldn't go wide around them or cut into the middle.

    this has nothing to do with the rampant obstruction of the DPE, just the change in defensive positional strategy we saw in the 90s. if you could have still scored streaming down the wing like michel goulet used to, i don't think a team like florida could have ever made the finals.
     
  18. sawchuk1971

    sawchuk1971 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    46
    did the lightning employ a 1-3-1 system this past playoffs?

    i remember watching the bruin series, where they talked about it...
     
  19. jkrx

    jkrx Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,337
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yes I think they did use the exact same tactic that was used in the 70's.
     
  20. Fred Taylor

    Fred Taylor The Cyclone

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    3,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    The trap I would say reduced entertainment value, it's not scoring itself that needs to be higher, but more scoring chances would be nice. The butterfly still would have reduced scoring, but overall team defense is much more of a factor in scoring dropping over the years.
     
  21. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    18,469
    Likes Received:
    1,648
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    True

    True plus the rest of Lemaire's tenure with the Canadiens as head coach, stretching well into Perron's tenure and beyond.

    Lemaire's Canadiens had a number of holdovers from the Bowman era, led by Gainey and Robinson.
     
  22. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,257
    Likes Received:
    453
    Trophy Points:
    229
    This. There is a reason the Devils were unwatchable under Lemaire.
     
  23. Killion

    Killion Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    36,513
    Likes Received:
    2,694
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Completely agree. Though I understand, appreciate & respect the refinements & proliferation of the now almost universal Butterfly style, with the exception of Halak, hybrids like Thomas & Brodeur, I find it boring & pedestrian. You know, the human body wasnt built to move like that, giving todays goalies an un-natural and an almost graceless appearance in the net. They go down to stop almost every shot, and once down in the Butterfly position, getting back up is no easy task. Committed. And of course once your committed, your easy prey for a sniper.
     
  24. DisgruntledGoat*

    DisgruntledGoat* Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    4,301
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Because no one suspects... THE BUTTERFLY!!!
     
  25. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    17,552
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    This myth keeps getting perpetuated when it's simply not true.
    the NHL increased its player pool to incldue more players from new streams from Europe and the US college ssytem, so unless you want to argue that Canadain hockey went down in skill level and the "newer players" lacked talent it simply doesn't hold up when tested.

    Also in a trapping league a premium is based on fast defensive players who adhere to "the system" rather than talented offensive guys.

    Rob Brown is a classic guy who would have excelled before the trapping defensive minded hockey as his skillset was awesome but his defensive awareness totally lacking.

    The key to winning games literally went from trying to score the most goals as the Oilers and Pens played to trying to not get scored on and scoring on the counter attack which is the focus of the trap.

    And when the trap is used with extreme clutch and grab we get the lazy "dead puck era" tag.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"