The Biggest "What if"?

Blue Dragon

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Jan 27, 2007
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Most of the mentioned ones are good. I had to find a good one that wasn't. What if Theo Fleury and Brian Fogarty could have overcome their personal demons?
 

SealsFan

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May 3, 2009
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What if the Seals hadn't traded their 1971 1st round draft pick to Montreal and got Guy Lafleur?
 

Derick*

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What if Niklas Wallin wasn't held back by his tragic affliction with very bad at hockey?
 

BSHH

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Apr 12, 2009
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Of those listed, Lindros' career without injuries is the biggest "What if". Unlike the other players mentioned, he could sustain his prime for a much shorter time and was not able to help his team, which sacrified many assets for him, to a Stanley Cup win. Since many other all-time greats were able to maintain a very physical play for a long time, we do not have to consider Lindros' recurring injuries as an inevitable consequence of his style of play.

But the biggest "What if" for me is about the future of the Edmonton Oilers with an owner who is willing to keep the dynasty team together. Has this already been thorouly discussed here; I only remember a thread about how many cups Gretzky might have won without being traded.

Gruß,
BSHH
 

Infinite Vision*

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Of those listed, Lindros' career without injuries is the biggest "What if". Unlike the other players mentioned, he could sustain his prime for a much shorter time and was not able to help his team, which sacrified many assets for him, to a Stanley Cup win. Since many other all-time greats were able to maintain a very physical play for a long time, we do not have to consider Lindros' recurring injuries as an inevitable consequence of his style of play.

But the biggest "What if" for me is about the future of the Edmonton Oilers with an owner who is willing to keep the dynasty team together. Has this already been thorouly discussed here; I only remember a thread about how many cups Gretzky might have won without being traded.

Gruß,
BSHH

Agree with that and the same goes for Forsberg and Orr IMO.
 

Dissonance

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I'll take this in the opposite direction: What if Scotty Bowman had never gotten whacked over the head by Jean-Guy Talbot in juniors? Would he have tried to stick it out as a player instead of turning to coaching in his early twenties? (I know the hit itself didn't technically end his career, but Bowman has said he was never the same afterwards....)
 

ForsbergForever

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May 19, 2004
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I don't get why people say this. It's not like his injuries were fluke injuries. They were a DIRECT result of his style of play. If he didn't play reckless, he wouldn't have been nearly as good as a he was. If he wasn't playing reckless and wasn't dominant, then he wouldn't find a good spot on an NHL roster. He never adjusted his play from when he was a mammoth compared to kids he was playing against, and that got him injured. If you take away his injuries, you take away his effectiveness as well.

What caused Eric's injuries was not reckless play but just having a lack of hockey sense, i.e. skating with his head down constantly and not knowing how to use his physical play effectively and position himself to prevent injury.
 

tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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Of those listed, Lindros' career without injuries is the biggest "What if". Unlike the other players mentioned, he could sustain his prime for a much shorter time and was not able to help his team, which sacrified many assets for him, to a Stanley Cup win. Since many other all-time greats were able to maintain a very physical play for a long time, we do not have to consider Lindros' recurring injuries as an inevitable consequence of his style of play.

But the biggest "What if" for me is about the future of the Edmonton Oilers with an owner who is willing to keep the dynasty team together. Has this already been thorouly discussed here; I only remember a thread about how many cups Gretzky might have won without being traded.

Gruß,
BSHH
Yes, what if Gretzky hadn't been traded? How many more goals and points for Gretzky (more than 1000 goals, more than 3000 points)? How many more scoring titles, Hart trophies, and Conn Smythes? And yes, how many more cups? And what about the rest of the NHL? What would have happened with expansion and the sunbelt teams? Players salaries, etc? From a broad perspective, the Gretzky trade is probably the biggest "what if" of all...
 

ComeAtMeBro*

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Mario for sure. His best was better than anyone elses best in NHL history. The only thing people have on him is "he didn't have a lengthy career".
 

tazzy19

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Mar 27, 2008
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Mario for sure. His best was better than anyone elses best in NHL history. The only thing people have on him is "he didn't have a lengthy career".
On what basis do you make this claim? Mario never had a regular season or playoff as good as any of Gretzky's top few seasons. Best PPG average? It's Gretzky - regular season or playoffs. Most points in a season - regular season or playoffs? It's Gretzky. Most goals in a season? It's Gretzky. How about the one Lemieux should easily win: Best GPG average? Nope, it's still Gretzky. Gretzky outperformed Lemieux statistically in every category in their best head to head seasons. In fact, Lemieux doesn't even have the 2nd best goals total. It's still Gretzky with 87 goals for 2nd. Lemieux is 5th in the best points total behind Gretzky's top 4. And let's not talk about assists...then it just gets silly. Lemieux's best is tied for Gretzky's 8th worst!

Everyone points to Lemieux's 160 points in 60 games (2.67 PPG) as being the best season ever, but Gretzky had a higher PPG average (2.77) over a full season in 1984. Gretzky also scored a ridiculous 153 points during his record breaking 51 game scoring streak that same year (for exactly 3 points per game). As we can see, Lemieux never approached this level of dominance. And that's not even mentioning Gretzky's mind boggling 47 points in only 18 playoff games in 1985. In conclusion, Gretzky's career offensive dominance was merely a function of having the best offensive NHL seasons in history -- a peak that not even Lemieux attained.
 

greatgazoo

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Jan 26, 2008
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Bobby Orr gets my vote.

Here's why: Medical advancements.

If his knees had been saved by today's MCL/ACL surgeries along with proper rest and rehab....

He would've played into the 1980's versus Gretzky.

Does Gretzky win all those Hart Trophies vs a healthy Bobby Orr who retired at age 30? Doubt it.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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What if doesn't always end well...

Bobby Orr gets my vote.

Here's why: Medical advancements.

If his knees had been saved by today's MCL/ACL surgeries along with proper rest and rehab....

He would've played into the 1980's versus Gretzky.

Does Gretzky win all those Hart Trophies vs a healthy Bobby Orr who retired at age 30? Doubt it.

Don't know why you doubt it. I think Gretzky's trophies would be unaffected. Just because Orr can recover from knee problems doesn't mean he can overcome age. Gretzky and Lemieux slowed down in their 30's, and Orr would as well. In year 2 Gretzky had the points record, and by year three he was starting his run of 200 point years. Gretzky year one is Orr's only chance to steal the trophy, but Gretzky had better offensive numbers than Bobby Clarke did when Clarke got the award during one of Orr's best seasons. Voters like offense, and Orr turns 32 in Gretzky's first season. I admit it is a cool twist that he would play The Great One in Gretzky's first game, likely on the first shift.

Why? Healthy knees still leave him with Eagleson, so Bobby's a Black Hawk in 76. But on a new team that is devoid of finishers like Esposito (well without PHIL anyway,) he may not be the Bobby Orr you remember. Chicago remains devoid of finishers on offense until after Gretzky hits year 2 and the points record. And Orr would miss playing with Esposito in the slot, to distract the defense and knock in all those rebounds. In the 73 playoffs Espo went down and for the rest of the series Orr vanished. Records say he played, but it doesn't look like he accomplished anything of note. Playing in Chicago would be a lot like that.

Boston fans would probably lose their minds as the Brad Park-led 78 Bruins eliminate the Orr-led Black Hawks in the first round, although it might be a 4-2 series instead of a sweep. Wonder how they'd handle Bourque vs Orr games? Orr probably stays at 2 Cups, since he couldn't beat the Habs in his prime, let alone now that he's aging, on a team where ancient Stan Mikita is one of the primary sources of offense, and is in the middle of Lafleur/Robinson/Savard/Gainey/Lapointe/Dryden's 4-year run.

If Orr kept going, his Norris run may not have. Modern medical science doesn't mean instant recovery from knee surgery, with 80 game seasons (or 76) at full strength. Like Cam Neely and Pavel Bure after him, seasons would still be cut short, or ended. And you can only go to the arthroscopic well so many times before the knee can't be saved. Maybe Orr can come back sooner, but can he outdo Denis Potvin's physicality and scoring, or Larry Robinson's Orr-like +/- totals on 120-point Habs teams while playing shortened seasons to win another Norris? Maybe in Boston, but not even Bobby Orr could do that on the Black Hawks.

Long story short, if Bobby Orr kept playing, he would have been a Black Hawk in an era when they had no offense, and his decline in play would tarnish his lofty place in history and perhaps your memories of him, just like that red uniform would tarnish his highlight reels. Black Hawk Bobby Orr wouldn't win any MVPs after age 32, when Gretzky shows up.

...

This What If? game can be depressing.
 

RH

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Nov 2, 2009
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What is Gretzky's plane landed in Winnipeg instead of Edmonton
 

TheGreatGodsby*

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Well Mario is the GOAT. People just don't realize it. So him I guess.
 

Crosbyfan

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Nov 27, 2003
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Don't know why you doubt it. I think Gretzky's trophies would be unaffected. Just because Orr can recover from knee problems doesn't mean he can overcome age. Gretzky and Lemieux slowed down in their 30's, and Orr would as well. In year 2 Gretzky had the points record, and by year three he was starting his run of 200 point years. Gretzky year one is Orr's only chance to steal the trophy, but Gretzky had better offensive numbers than Bobby Clarke did when Clarke got the award during one of Orr's best seasons. Voters like offense, and Orr turns 32 in Gretzky's first season. I admit it is a cool twist that he would play The Great One in Gretzky's first game, likely on the first shift.

Why? Healthy knees still leave him with Eagleson, so Bobby's a Black Hawk in 76. But on a new team that is devoid of finishers like Esposito (well without PHIL anyway,) he may not be the Bobby Orr you remember. Chicago remains devoid of finishers on offense until after Gretzky hits year 2 and the points record. And Orr would miss playing with Esposito in the slot, to distract the defense and knock in all those rebounds. In the 73 playoffs Espo went down and for the rest of the series Orr vanished. Records say he played, but it doesn't look like he accomplished anything of note. Playing in Chicago would be a lot like that.

Boston fans would probably lose their minds as the Brad Park-led 78 Bruins eliminate the Orr-led Black Hawks in the first round, although it might be a 4-2 series instead of a sweep. Wonder how they'd handle Bourque vs Orr games? Orr probably stays at 2 Cups, since he couldn't beat the Habs in his prime, let alone now that he's aging, on a team where ancient Stan Mikita is one of the primary sources of offense, and is in the middle of Lafleur/Robinson/Savard/Gainey/Lapointe/Dryden's 4-year run.

If Orr kept going, his Norris run may not have. Modern medical science doesn't mean instant recovery from knee surgery, with 80 game seasons (or 76) at full strength. Like Cam Neely and Pavel Bure after him, seasons would still be cut short, or ended. And you can only go to the arthroscopic well so many times before the knee can't be saved. Maybe Orr can come back sooner, but can he outdo Denis Potvin's physicality and scoring, or Larry Robinson's Orr-like +/- totals on 120-point Habs teams while playing shortened seasons to win another Norris? Maybe in Boston, but not even Bobby Orr could do that on the Black Hawks.

Long story short, if Bobby Orr kept playing, he would have been a Black Hawk in an era when they had no offense, and his decline in play would tarnish his lofty place in history and perhaps your memories of him, just like that red uniform would tarnish his highlight reels. Black Hawk Bobby Orr wouldn't win any MVPs after age 32, when Gretzky shows up.

...

This What If? game can be depressing.

I've never heard anyone suggest this before. Orr would surely have remained a Bruin if he had healthy knees.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
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I've never heard anyone suggest this before. Orr would surely have remained a Bruin if he had healthy knees.

Why did Alan Eagleson want Orr to go to Chicago? Does that change in What If? world if Orr is healthy? I imagine that Eagleson, the infamous purloiner of player pension funds, received some benefit from Wirtz, the inspiration for campaign finance reform laws in the state of Illinois to convince Orr to leave when his contract was up.

Why did Orr accept Eagleson's advice? Orr accepted whatever Eagleson told him, and since Orr says he never knew about details of the Bruins offer, it's reasonable to assume Whatif? Eagleson is willing to lie to and/or withold details from his client in a wildly successful effort to mislead him.

That's why I think Eagleson moves Orr under whatever pretext he can find, maybe even the same one if Boston is still hesitant about Orr's knee surgery, (I was going with "Orr's knees saved by modern surgery" version,) and still convinces him that Boston offered a slave pact, and Chicago offered the world.
I don't think the anti-Boston tone of this article would change:
From http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1091672/index.htm#ixzz1AWkBbzdi
At 28, Orr was a Black Hawk after having spent half his life in what he has called "servitude" to the Bruins. He had signed with Boston as a 14-year-old amateur for a few hundred dollars in cash, a new coat of stucco for the Orr family's house in Parry Sound, Ontario, a secondhand car and the promise—never fulfilled—of some new clothes.

I freely concede I can be wrong on the Orr/Boston/Chicago situation.
 

RECsGuy*

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What if Pavel Bure's knees held up? 600 goals? 700 goals?

Scored 472 goals despite playing an average of only 64 games per season over the span of his 12-year career (766 games), scoring at a rate of 51 goals/82 games. At that snail pace, he still would have potted 700 by the age of 38.

*all stats incl. playoffs
 
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CHGoalie27

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Oct 5, 2009
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What if Pavel Bure's knees held up? 600 goals? 700 goals?

Scored 472 goals despite playing an average of only 64 games per season over the span of his 12-year career (766 games), scoring at a rate of 51 goals/82 games. At that snail pace, he still would have potted 700 by the age of 38.

*all stats incl. playoffs

I'd call it a call it 9 year career if you discount the time lost to those knee injuries during those 12 years.

He was a goal scoring machine of the most exciting kind. Might he have been the first to brake 1000 regular season goals??
If he scored at least 30 while healthy(which for him is low as hell), he'd have 566 in 12 seasons...and also playing into this era, he'd be exactly what we consider Lidstrom to be except on the O side.
 

The Sting

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Oct 23, 2010
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I'd have to say Orr. That's simply because I don't believe what a few posters have stated, that we saw Orr's best. Despite his knee deteriorating, we saw his play improve every season. He scored more goals his last full season than any previous season(sixth in the league), led in assists, points and plus/minus all while showing his ever improving defensive abilities, on essentially one good knee. 76 Canada Cup was MVP again on one knee.
No, I don't believe we saw Orr's best years.
 

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