The Biggest Changes Needs to Be Leadership and Team Culture

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rboomercat90

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Mar 24, 2013
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Ah yes, McDavid sure has suffered as an individual since being named captain. Only won a couple Art Ross, Lindsay’s and a Hart.


It’s amazing people actually believe that making him captain was a mistake. He’s done fine. There’s so many issues worth more concern than this crap.

Literally a couple posts ahead of mine, OP says he doesn’t think McDavid is a great captain.

What evidence does the OP have to the contrary? It’s a bunch of horse ****.
Again, nobody said he wasn’t a good leader. What was said was that too much pressure to have to do too much was put on him too soon. He should have been left to grow into that position and just be able to concentrate on being a young player in the league. Yes, he’s won a couple Art Ross trophies and an MVP. Nobody is denying he’s played well. Would you deny he’s been awfully frustrated with the team the last couple seasons? It’s been talked about an awful lot on these boards with people even suggesting he’ll ask for a trade at some point. As the captain and the face of the franchise he’s the one who has to talk to the media about it all the time. He’s done as good a job dealing with it as he could, I have no complaints about how he’s done but I think he’d have been better off not having to be that guy until he was older.
 

Aceboogie

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i urge you to talk to anyone who's played in the NHL or any high level hockey and they'll tell you culture is equally as important if not more so than talent. go ahead. call strudwick on the gregor show and see what he'll tell you about your take.

why do some highly skilled teams succeed and some highly skilled team fail and always disappoint? culture. you set the foundation of a good culture and you bring the talent in who abide by it and build something great.

I know they would all say culture is super mega important. Thats because its baked into their dumb skulls like it is in yours. That is why high level GMs and presidents of hockey clubs trade Hall for Larsson, or RoR for scraps, or Forsberg for Erat. Its cause of culture, culture, culture baby.

NHL front offices preach culture non stop because you cant measure it, so you can invent whatever narrative you want to justify anything. Your team did bad? culture. You traded away a 30 goal scorer for a bottom line player- that guy has culture duh. Failed to bring in a player who can score actual goals, well this guy has culture and heart.

Then those people spread the BS to the media and hope fans accept what they say at face value, and some people (like you) buy it hook, line and sinker
 

MaxR11

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Mar 28, 2017
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I know they would all say culture is super mega important. Thats because its baked into their dumb skulls like it is in yours. That is why high level GMs and presidents of hockey clubs trade Hall for Larsson, or RoR for scraps, or Forsberg for Erat. Its cause of culture, culture, culture baby.

NHL front offices preach culture non stop because you cant measure it, so you can invent whatever narrative you want to justify anything. Your team did bad? culture. You traded away a 30 goal scorer for a bottom line player- that guy has culture duh. Failed to bring in a player who can score actual goals, well this guy has culture and heart.

Then those people spread the BS to the media and hope fans accept what they say at face value, and some people (like you) buy it hook, line and sinker


extremely dumb post. your arrogance to think you'd know better than nhl players is ridiculous given the only sports you probably played was on xbox. just because YOU fail to grasp the concepts of culture properly doesn't mean it's not vital. the examples you give are stupid as well. culture isn't defined or constrained into simple trades and single players etc. it's an overarching and dynamic concept. it involves interactions amongst the entire team and organization. just drop it. you don't have the ability to understand it.

laughable. the nhl players and execs are far from perfect, no question, but they still know 1000x more than you about how to run things and how things really happen and work.
 

Mr Tadakichi

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Nov 23, 2014
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extremely dumb post. your arrogance to think you'd know better than nhl players is ridiculous given the only sports you probably played was on xbox. just because YOU fail to grasp the concepts of culture properly doesn't mean it's not vital. the examples you give are stupid as well. culture isn't defined or constrained into simple trades and single players etc. it's an overarching and dynamic concept. it involves interactions amongst the entire team and organization. just drop it. you don't have the ability to understand it.

laughable. the nhl players and execs are far from perfect, no question, but they still know 1000x more than you about how to run things and how things really happen and work.

 

DerpMorg

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You know why people like to talk about culture and how it’s so vital?

Because it’s not f***ing quantitative.

You can use it to mask all your other incompetencies.

You trade quantitatively good players for bullshit like “leadership” and “grit” and “down to earth” and “tough” and this is what you get. We don’t lose games because we miss the leadership of Hendricks. We lose because over the past decade 90% of our starting roster have been put in roles that are above their relative skill level. This how you end up with Ty Rattie articles in August about how he’s the possible solution as the missing part of the Draisatl/McDavid line. He must be a good kid though. Lotta heart I hear.
 

Mr Positive

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the problem with saying that is that we really have never seen this team with the proper balance of skills. For instance there was a 'culture' issue with Dallas (I bring them up a lot nowadays), in that Seguin was partying still and Benn was even called out for not being a good enough leader, and in general people said that was the issue.

So, did they go through maturity training, and that inspired the team to greatness?????

No! Instead the rise of the Stars coincides directly with the growth and development of Klingberg and then Heiskanen, and then fixing goaltending and depth with good signings. Then all of a sudden the "culture" doesn't seem like such a big deal.

It's all a mirage to me. If you have the right mix of skills, you get success, and then nothing seems toxic. If your team is losing for whatever reason, then everything seems toxic.
 
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Panthera

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Got to trade our way to some of that culture. McDavid's a pretty good trade chip, maybe we can get rid of him if any GMs out there are foolish enough to value skill at hockey over Being A Good Guy In The Room. Need to be careful with our target though. Lucic was a great character guy brought in for veteran leadership, then he got really bad at hockey and suddenly it turned out he was actually an evil locker room tumour (tumour? is that the right word?) all along. Need to make sure we don't spend our valuable (well, semi-valuable, McDavid doesn't make people better players by saying "hi" to them so he's not *that* special) assets on any of those fake leaders. Lot of them out there, you know. Turns out every guy that looks like a good leader that goes to a team that isn't good enough to win much was actually a Bad Guy In The Room all along. Real sneaky, those Bad Guys.

Leadership, man. Sometimes I think it's a quality we assign retroactively to successful people in an effort to trick ourselves into thinking that victory has a moral component to it as opposed to being something that even a total douchebag can achieve if they have the skill and put in the work, but that can't possibly be the case because it would mean that being good at something has more effect on performance than seeming like a cool dude to have a drink with.
 

Bangers

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McDavid isn’t a good leader because Pool Party whined his way out?

Gotta love random internet people who think they know what the hell culture is like for a sports team. Up there with the body language experts for uselessness.

On par with people who come onto message boards only to complain about other posters?
 
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Bangers

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You know why people like to talk about culture and how it’s so vital?

Because it’s not ****ing quantitative.

You can use it to mask all your other incompetencies.

You trade quantitatively good players for bull**** like “leadership” and “grit” and “down to earth” and “tough” and this is what you get. We don’t lose games because we miss the leadership of Hendricks. We lose because over the past decade 90% of our starting roster have been put in roles that are above their relative skill level. This how you end up with Ty Rattie articles in August about how he’s the possible solution as the missing part of the Draisatl/McDavid line. He must be a good kid though. Lotta heart I hear.

Talent and culture aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
 

Jumptheshark

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The thread title is correct... Not sure about the OP though.

There does seem to be a weird culture around the Oilers that it seems all ex-players comment about.


Been like that for awhile

Petry commented on it. Perron, several players who bolted to europe and a few others.

The comments started shortly after the cup run. Not sure if it was THE OBC or something in the water.. but something has been wrong for awhile
 
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Fourier

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Again, nobody said he wasn’t a good leader. What was said was that too much pressure to have to do too much was put on him too soon. He should have been left to grow into that position and just be able to concentrate on being a young player in the league. Yes, he’s won a couple Art Ross trophies and an MVP. Nobody is denying he’s played well. Would you deny he’s been awfully frustrated with the team the last couple seasons? It’s been talked about an awful lot on these boards with people even suggesting he’ll ask for a trade at some point. As the captain and the face of the franchise he’s the one who has to talk to the media about it all the time. He’s done as good a job dealing with it as he could, I have no complaints about how he’s done but I think he’d have been better off not having to be that guy until he was older.
He'd have to talk about it anyways. The media will want to know what he is thinking, captain or not, since he is not only the face of the franchise but one of a handful of faces of the League.

I doubt being the captain increased the pressure on him outside the team. He's been dealing with that sort of thing for years. It could put somewhat more pressure on him internally to be a leader on and off the ice. On the ice I think he has more than exceeded anyone's expectations. We don't know about in the room but from players comments it sure seems like they respect his maturity.

Looking at the 2016 team, if the captain was to be some vet your choices were Lucic (new to the team), Russell (new to the team), Sekera (seems very quiet) and Letestu (Also new to the team). Hendricks had the respect but in today's NHL and effective captain should at least be a regular. It would have taken someone pretty special to be chosen ahead of McDavid. It was pretty clear from the minute he first stepped onto the ice in an Oiler uniform that he was going to be the guy.
 
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Tad Mikowsky

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mansome of you have to work on comprehension skills. i think you're blinded by your own triggerness when someone says something less than glowing about connor. I NEVER said he was a bad leader. do i question whether he's a great one at this point? yes. that doens't mean he's not ok for his age as a leader. and nowhere did i say making him cpt was a mistake. the mistake is NOT SURROUNDING HIM WITH GOOD QUALITY VET LEADERSHIP TO HELP HIM. even IF he was a great leader it's still very difficult for a young guy like him to be a leader on the ice, on the bench, in the room, off the ice, etc etc etc. AND be the best player in the league. i'm sure a lot of focus for him is to always fine tune his own game and be prepared. he NEEDS HELP. you just want to make it about bashing me which is why you automatically went to interpret the post to be based all around me bashing connor. grow up.

Telling someone to grow up while having a complete and utter meltdown because someone thinks your argument is bad. is deliciously ironic.

I think being critical of McDavids leadership ability is as useful as the usher at Rogers suggesting line changes. Completely useless, kinda like this thread.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, was complaining about leadership when the Oilers made the playoffs.

Let’s focus on stuff that actually matters, like winning, instead of arbitrary bullshit that nobody outside the locker room knows jack all about.

I’m glad others are picking up on the badness of this thread.
 
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Aceboogie

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extremely dumb post. your arrogance to think you'd know better than nhl players is ridiculous given the only sports you probably played was on xbox. just because YOU fail to grasp the concepts of culture properly doesn't mean it's not vital. the examples you give are stupid as well. culture isn't defined or constrained into simple trades and single players etc. it's an overarching and dynamic concept. it involves interactions amongst the entire team and organization. just drop it. you don't have the ability to understand it.

laughable. the nhl players and execs are far from perfect, no question, but they still know 1000x more than you about how to run things and how things really happen and work.

Buddy, you are the one who championed the Hall for Larsson deal because it shipped out a locker room cancer and improved "culutre". You are the last one who has any authority to speak on how culture impacts an NHL team. I would also imagine you loved the Lucic signing and are a big fan of Russell

I also played high-level hockey for 15 years, including junior hockey. Whats your resume
 
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Aceboogie

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Aug 25, 2012
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Been like that for awhile

Perry commented on it. Perron, several players who bolted to europe and a few others.

The comments started shortly after the cup run. Not sure if it was THE OBC or something in the water.. but something has been wrong for awhile

Where culture is rotten ( and I 100% agree) is with the front office. Its not with the players. When former players rip on the Oilers, its mostly about the front office. Listen to Penner/Whitney/POS etc speak, its all about how inept Lowe & co were.

I will say this, leadership is important because NHL players value it. If you are building a team, you need to build it to make the players love the roster. If players thought blue Gatorade was the key to winning, you bring in all the blue Gatorade in the world. Now I do believe leadership plays a role, but I also believe you can bring in that leadership at a low cost. Look at someone like Matt Hendricks. He was loved by teammates and heralded as a great leader. Those guys cost next to nothing. The issue becomes when fans/GMs want to pay a ton to acquire a "leader" or a guy with grit and heart. If you are treading away an impactful top 6 player for an intangibles player who lacks the same skills, you will likely regret it strongly.
 

frag2

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Mar 8, 2006
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Buddy, you are the one who championed the Hall for Larsson deal because it shipped out a locker room cancer and improved "culutre". You are the last one who has any authority to speak on how culture impacts an NHL team. I would also imagine you loved the Lucic signing and are a big fan of Russell

I also played high-level hockey for 15 years, including junior hockey. Whats your resume

Culture wizard
 

Tad Mikowsky

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Buddy, you are the one who championed the Hall for Larsson deal because it shipped out a locker room cancer and improved "culutre". You are the last one who has any authority to speak on how culture impacts an NHL team. I would also imagine you loved the Lucic signing and are a big fan of Russell

I also played high-level hockey for 15 years, including junior hockey. Whats your resume

Resume: some random internet guy who thinks he’s knowledgeable about culture
 

Jamin

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Aug 25, 2009
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The issue with culture is how do you explain the fluke playoff year?

Team is bad with bad culture and drafs 4th overall. Next year team makes second round of playoffs. Next year team is bad and is bottom 10.

Im with the people who say winning fixes/creates culture. Isnt it a coincidence the only year we had a healthy d core and good/great goaltending the team makes the playoffs and has good culture. Lose Sekera, Klef, Eberle etc and Talbot falls off a cliff and all of a sudden we have bad culture again.
 

MaxR11

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The issue with culture is how do you explain the fluke playoff year?

Team is bad with bad culture and drafs 4th overall. Next year team makes second round of playoffs. Next year team is bad and is bottom 10.

Im with the people who say winning fixes/creates culture. Isnt it a coincidence the only year we had a healthy d core and good/great goaltending the team makes the playoffs and has good culture. Lose Sekera, Klef, Eberle etc and Talbot falls off a cliff and all of a sudden we have bad culture again.

i do think the culture was better in 2016-17 but i knew part of it was a bit of a fluke. i was harping on that even during the last 1/4 of that season and still, after the playoff run, wasn't completely convinced the team was going to be as going to be as good in 17-18. i was pleading for them to add quality veteran fwd depth. chia sat on his hands, the summer of 2017. maybe there was no deal or signing to be had, who knows.

16-17, they came together and felt tighter knit and even keep quoting that that year they were playing for each other more (almost certainly rallying around getting rid of a controversial figure in hall that summer). so ya there was definitely that improvement in unity and culture that i knew was temporary. which was why i begged for additions of quality leadership vet fwd presence after the season.

sure enough they were overconfident the following season (as todd mclellan and even the players said) and things fell apart. i knew it was partly to do with the lack of good quality experienced veteran leadership and voices in the room that should have been pounding it home to the team that "we still need to work hard, we need to build on last year and not get complacent and listen to all the bs the media is saying about how we're the greatest team and a cup contender "etc etc. They clearly did not have enough of that voice and vet presence and along with injuries they reverted back to their mentally weak form and the culture sank back down.

culture is complex. it's not as black and white as people want to make it. i DO think at times that winning can help create a good contributions to culture, for sure. you can roll that dice and hope that these young guys develop that winning culture on their own and i'm not going to say for sure that won't work because it certainly can.... we've seen young groups figure it out. however, the safer and prudent way is to ensure you have enough good leader veteran voices on the team to AID the youngsters in developing the proper culture and habits and off ice unity etc etc etc. many times even the young groups who seemingly figure it out always refer to those 1, 2 or 3 great vets that helped mentor them along.

quality leaders who've been there before and know how to create a good atmosphere with good hard working habits and showing other players how they should conduct themselves etc is huge to building a good team culture. when things are good and stable it really helps with performance on the ice. people always forget that these are human beings and they need to feel comfort and stability and a strong sense of buy in to the team culture in their daily lives to be able to perform close to peak as possible. a united team of 75 out of 100 skill guys are going to outperform a fragmented group of 88/100 players more often than not.
 

Tad Mikowsky

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i do think the culture was better in 2016-17 but i knew part of it was a bit of a fluke. i was harping on that even during the last 1/4 of that season and still, after the playoff run, wasn't completely convinced the team was going to be as going to be as good in 17-18. i was pleading for them to add quality veteran fwd depth. chia sat on his hands, the summer of 2017. maybe there was no deal or signing to be had, who knows.

16-17, they came together and felt tighter knit and even keep quoting that that year they were playing for each other more (almost certainly rallying around getting rid of a controversial figure in hall that summer). so ya there was definitely that improvement in unity and culture that i knew was temporary. which was why i begged for additions of quality leadership vet fwd presence after the season.

sure enough they were overconfident the following season (as todd mclellan and even the players said) and things fell apart. i knew it was partly to do with the lack of good quality experienced veteran leadership and voices in the room that should have been pounding it home to the team that "we still need to work hard, we need to build on last year and not get complacent and listen to all the bs the media is saying about how we're the greatest team and a cup contender "etc etc. They clearly did not have enough of that voice and vet presence and along with injuries they reverted back to their mentally weak form and the culture sank back down.

culture is complex. it's not as black and white as people want to make it. i DO think at times that winning can help create a good contributions to culture, for sure. you can roll that dice and hope that these young guys develop that winning culture on their own and i'm not going to say for sure that won't work because it certainly can.... we've seen young groups figure it out. however, the safer and prudent way is to ensure you have enough good leader veteran voices on the team to AID the youngsters in developing the proper culture and habits and off ice unity etc etc etc. many times even the young groups who seemingly figure it out always refer to those 1, 2 or 3 great vets that helped mentor them along.

quality leaders who've been there before and know how to create a good atmosphere with good hard working habits and showing other players how they should conduct themselves etc is huge to building a good team culture. when things are good and stable it really helps with performance on the ice. people always forget that these are human beings and they need to feel comfort and stability and a strong sense of buy in to the team culture in their daily lives to be able to perform close to peak as possible. a united team of 75 out of 100 skill guys are going to outperform a fragmented group of 88/100 players more often than not.

Hahahahaha what actual statistical evidence do you have for the bottom part?

Please quantify leadership and culture.
 

MaxR11

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Hahahahaha what actual statistical evidence do you have for the bottom part?

Please quantify leadership and culture.

not everything has to be quantifiable to absolutely be a huge factor. if you can't understand how much leadership and culture aids in the success... we'll then we're done here.
 

Tad Mikowsky

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not everything has to be quantifiable to absolutely be a huge factor. if you can't understand how much leadership and culture aids in the success... we'll then we're done here.

Well, If you’re going to spout nonsense like 77/100 of United guys are going to 88/100 fragmented guys, I’d expect something to back it up.

I’m not arguing that leadership and culture isn’t important. Winning and production is more important, something you can at least quantify.
 
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