The bible of pro hockey has confirmed NHLPA has an offer for next week....

[Morbo]

I bet this offer is merely a formality as well.

This will be the players' opportunity to throw up their hands and say "see? we negotiated, they turned us down, we want to bargain, they don't, it's their fault there will be no season".

 

[FLYLine27*]

Coulda sworn I heard Goodenow say at least 5 times yesterday on leafs lunch that there was NO proposal coming .

maybe he's inviting Gary over to play some nhl2005

Winner gets there plan as the new CBA! (Best of 7 of course )

 

[Iceman23]

In that case, I think the short geeky guy might have a leg up :lol

The PA has gotta make a real nice offer. Otherwise, the public will remain against them and I think we will see an impasse declared soon.

 

[Sinurgy]

From what we've heard, the PA proposal will be a luxury tax. From what we've heard from Bettman, the NHL will reject it because it isn't their brand of cost certainty. At this point, one would have to assume that both sides are playing out their arguments like lawyers who know the outcome of the trial, they are just positioning themselves with their ducks in a row for the Court of Appeal.

The NHLPA goes into the NLRB or a court arguing it is they who are locked-out and they tried to compromise. The NHL will go in arguing as a large multi-billion dollar business that is threatened with extinction if it doesn't get what it wants.

We'll see what happens.

Exactly! This proposal is nothing more than to say they offered up a proposal. It's completely for show. Lets face it folks, there will be no hockey and both sides seem very ok with that.

Without the NHL the owners are still successful millionaires, without the NHL what are the players?

 

[swflyers8*]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=106699

Fingers crossed that something constructive might come of this.......

Guess which fingers are crossed for me?

 

[Pepper]

I'm very afraid that this is indeed nothing but a PR-trick from the PA, they are really taking it up the ass from the public, the overwhelming majority of fans support the owners so they gotta do something.

Their first offer was so bad it wasn't even ridiculous so let's hope they put a real effort in to this one.

Dollar for dollar luxury tax starting at $40M, arbitration changes (so that arbitrator has to choose either of the proposals, not something in between), strict entry-level contract cap ($1M per year, bonuses included) and a 80% qualifying offer.

That will greatly help the league and is a solid start for negotiations.

 

[HAWKSWINHAWKSWIN]

Aww ****. Well this proposal will not amount to anything. Get ready of scabs in 05.

Not sure if I agree with the scabs, but i wouldn't hold out much hope for anything happening. The players have said over and over, "no cap" so unless they changed their minds recently, I would say that the official statement from Bettman would read just like his others ..."... there is nothing in this proposal which guarantees cost certainty...." and then that will be the end of any hopes, folks. At least now I can watch the Rock/Paper/Scissors World championships without fear of being pre-empted by a hockey game.....

 

[Puck]

I wasn't implying it was a PA public relations trick. I was saying that we will soon see the bottom line proposal from each side. The closer we get to a potential 'season closure', the closer we'll see the true final positions. Just because that final position isn't what the NHL wants, doesn't demean that position IMO. We all know both sides don't agree. If the PA doesn't agree with the NHL, that's not illegal.

The NHL has its points and so does the PA. The final outcome is not based on a popularity contest.

 

[shakes]

Does it matter why he lied? He still did. I am just wondering how this info fits into your picture that the NHLPA all walk around with wings playing harps and the Owners want nothing more then to chew on the souls of young babies.

EDIT: I should throw in that this is an exaggeration I have never seen a post where you claimed anything about angels or soul eating.

Listening to people spouting off about how bad the Union is because they "lied" to the media just bugs the hell out of me. Give me a break. Historically speaking, the NHLPA has NOTHING on the owners in that department.

I'm sure the league does not want this to be a serious offer, because if it is, say good bye to any hope they may have had in getting an arbitrator to declare an impasse.

 

[Larry Melnyk]

I have a serious question, in quite a few posts in this thread and others I have seen it stated that "the majority of the fans support the owners"...Where are the numbers that support this and where might this be true? Maybe this is true in Canada where fans seem to just want the game they love to be played again by the BEST players, and have trouble seeing why the players won't give in more when they already have it made....But not sure this is true in the US where the majority of the teams are and where, unfortunately, it matters most...

First off, I think most sports fans in the US couldn't give a rats arse whether there is hockey or not...There is to much sports and entertainment to really give it a second thought---Basketball (pro and college), footbal (pro and college), baseball (season and hot stove), college hockey, soccer, and even games like darts, poker and tiddlywinks are more popular and watchable....Second, in regards to the miniscule amount that does care, from everything I have read and everybody I have talked to or heard from, there is just as much or more anger towards the owners...When it's billionaires vs millionaires, americans have no problem seeing entertainers/athletes getting as much as they can get, and more power to them....PERHAPS unlike many fans in Canada, the AMerican fans don't see it as the job of the players to agree to everything the owners want just for the love and return of the game...

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, of course both sides need to give in big time but I find it highly unlikely for either side to budge right now...I don't even think this season is a consideration---it's lost already.....As some have said, this is all for PR and legal reasons...I'm sure the NHLPA has compromised even further (but not enough) but while the NHL will agree to the meeting becuase of PR, legal and impasse issues, they will politely tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine...The PA knows this will be the outcome but it's all about perception and next September...

Unfortunately, come next September, PRO HOCKEY will basically be dead in the US..While Canadian fans will probably watch replacement players, IMO American fans will turn their noses to the thought of watching c-list players playing the marginalized game of hockey when there are so many other options competing for their time and money (See the XFL)...By next fall, with or without replacement players, AMERICAN public sports fans won't give a hoot if the big boys ever come back....

What all this means is thab Both the PA and the owners better stop acting chuckleheaads and start compromising if they don't want to have a corpse that can not be revived a year from now...

 

[FLYLine27*]

Good post Larry.

 

[YellHockey*]

I have a serious question, in quite a few posts in this thread and others I have seen it stated that "the majority of the fans support the owners"...Where are the numbers that support this and where might this be true?

Here's some results from a poll done by the Ottawa Citizen :

The poll also found more than half the population was either undecided or had no opinion on whether they supported the players or owners in the dispute. Among those who were decided, 38 per cent took the side of owners and only nine per cent favoured the players.

It seems like the majority don't care who's to blame.

 

[Cawz]

I have a serious question, in quite a few posts in this thread and others I have seen it stated that "the majority of the fans support the owners"...Where are the numbers that support this and where might this be true?

Are you looking for poll results or something? I have yet to talk to a player supporter here in Calgary. Hell, people even say "the players are striking for more money", even though we here all know that is not true. I've found thats the viewpoint of the casual fan who isnt really following along. And yes, I correct them, even though I dont agree with the PA's subborn stance.

But as for the informed fan, we know there are problems in the league (this is no suprise, the PA freely agrees to this), and we know that the PA has been taking full advantage and reaping the benefits of the system (rightfully so), and most feel that the PA is the group who has to make more concessions. As said previously, its not a middle ground comprimise if the league loses only 100 million as opposed to 200 million or whatever.

Second, in regards to the miniscule amount that does care, from everything I have read and everybody I have talked to or heard from, there is just as much or more anger towards the owners...When it's billionaires vs millionaires, americans have no problem seeing entertainers/athletes getting as much as they can get, and more power to them....PERHAPS unlike many fans in Canada, the AMerican fans don't see it as the job of the players to agree to everything the owners want just for the love and return of the game...

What have you been reading? Larry Brookes (or whatever that jokers name is)? I;m not sure what fans you are talking about, but this Canadian fan knows that something has to be fixed and the comprimise point is further away from the PA's standing offer. Hopefully their new offer is more realistic. I just hope they take the 5% rollback out and make a serious concession. Thats a joke.

What Canadian fans see it as the job of the players to agree to everything the owners want just for the love and return of the game? Who have you been talking to?

Edit: Ha, you got a poll result. Anyone with another City's poll or a Canada or US wide one?

 

[chara]

A lot of us, myself included, have been very hard on Bob Goodenow.

As a lawyer, he's trying to get the best deal possible for his clients. In 1994, he held out and succeeded. He had to do the same thing this time around but ultimately he knows it couldn't succeed. Bettman has painted him into a corner by passing the '8 rule', i.e. Bettman needs only 8 owners to keep the lockout going.

If he needed to, Bettman could have locked the players for 3 years and Goodenow knows it. But Goodenow had to try. Let's hope he finds some middle ground that will get something meaningful for the players. Ill will is not what hockey needs moving forward.

Let's get these guys back on the ice, NHL ice, where they belong.

 

[Larry Melnyk]

.

What have you been reading? Larry Brookes (or whatever that jokers name is)? I;m not sure what fans you are talking about, but this Canadian fan knows that something has to be fixed and the comprimise point is further away from the PA's standing offer. Hopefully their new offer is more realistic. I just hope they take the 5% rollback out and make a serious concession. Thats a joke.

What Canadian fans see it as the job of the players to agree to everything the owners want just for the love and return of the game? Who have you been talking to?

Edit: Ha, you got a poll result. Anyone with another City's poll or a Canada or US wide one?

No need for the Brooks wise crack..I read everything I can get my eyes on, be it from the Canadian or US paper and mags...Do you hear me spouting 100% pro-layer Brooksian ramblings?

And your post as well as BLACKREDGOLD's survey (Thanks!) are both from the Canadain perspective while my post was trying to point out how I seem to see (and I am not saying I am right!) a big difference in how many of the AMerican fans see the blame game and what needs to be done as compared to the Canadian fans

 

[JFPIV]

Darren Pang reported on ESPN radio that the NHLPA offer does not include a hard cap. I suspect this means that it is dead on arrival.

 

[Cawz]

No need for the Brooks wise crack..I read everything I can get my eyes on, be it from the Canadian or US paper and mags...Do you hear me spouting 100% pro-layer Brooksian ramblings?

And your post as well as BLACKREDGOLD's survey (Thanks!) are both from the Canadain perspective while my post was trying to point out how I seem to see (and I am not saying I am right!) a big difference in how many of the AMerican fans see the blame game and what needs to be done as compared to the Canadian fans

It wasnt a wise crack. He's a joker who writes to get a reaction, and he does get a reaction so I guess he's good at what he does. He's pretty much the only thing I've read that is pro-PA. I basically just get news from these boards (ie, the links that people post here). I didnt mean to insult you.

There are many factors that will result in different viewpoints, like hockey teams moving from a country that lives and breathes the sport, to a country that only has a passing interest in it, and then it goes into financial ruin. Thats definatly going to skew the perspective.

But as for the "blame game", for what I've seen, people here are past that and its all about 'how should it be fixed'. Its not about millionaires vs billionaires, its about a league that needs a better system. As said above, looking at the poll "It seems like the majority don't care who's to blame."

But then again, that was in Ottawa, a town of politicians who are bred to be ambiguous (just kidding).

 

[Larry Melnyk]

It wasnt a wise crack. He's a joker who writes to get a reaction, and he does get a reaction so I guess he's good at what he does. He's pretty much the only thing I've read that is pro-PA. I basically just get news from these boards (ie, the links that people post here). I didnt mean to insult you.

There are many factors that will result in different viewpoints, like hockey teams moving from a country that lives and breathes the sport, to a country that only has a passing interest in it, and then it goes into financial ruin. Thats definatly going to skew the perspective.

But as for the "blame game", for what I've seen, people here are past that and its all about 'how should it be fixed'. Its not about millionaires vs billionaires, its about a league that needs a better system. As said above, looking at the poll "It seems like the majority don't care who's to blame."

But then again, that was in Ottawa, a town of politicians who are bred to be ambiguous (just kidding).

I know Brooks is as sensationalist as they come, but his pro-player stance has been far from the only article I have read that puts the onus as much or even more on the owners...ALthough I have to admit that almost everybody BUT BROOKS has stopped writing about it in the States!...And I'm not really sure it is a skewed perspective but rather just a different perspective that reflects the history (of the game), interest and alternatives of the fans of the two countries..

And while I agree that the game has been ruined financially and artistically by the powers that ran the game over the past 10 years (That's a different arguement!), I agree that it SHOULD be all about jsut fixing the damn thing (with compromise on both sides--prrobably more on the players side) but where I disagree from you is what I've see on the HF boards where the points seems too often to be showing/saying over and over again why the other side (be it the NHLPA or the owners/Count Chocula) is totally to blame and needs to surrender to save the game..Both sides need to..

 

[Cawz]

I know Brooks is as sensationalist as they come, but his pro-player stance has been far from the only article I have read that puts the onus as much or even more on the owners...ALthough I have to admit that almost everybody BUT BROOKS has stopped writing about it in the States!...And I'm not really sure it is a skewed perspective but rather just a different perspective that reflects the history (of the game), interest and alternatives of the fans of the two countries..

And while I agree that the game has been ruined financially and artistically by the powers that ran the game over the past 10 years (That's a different arguement!), I agree that it SHOULD be all about jsut fixing the damn thing (with compromise on both sides--prrobably more on the players side) but where I disagree from you is what I've see on the HF boards where the points seems too often to be showing/saying over and over again why the other side (be it the NHLPA or the owners/Count Chocula) is totally to blame and needs to surrender to save the game..Both sides need to..

Ya, totally agree.
There are some stupid posters on here. It gets to the point that when I see someones picture that I associate with assinine comments, I just quickly skim over it. Mabye 10% of the posts on here are worthwhile, but I've learned a lot from that 10%. Thats where you get the different perspectives, the word on the street, the inside info from other teams etc.

 

[hockeyfan33]

I can't believe how closed mined most of you are and are already disregarding the proposal before knowing what it actually consists of. This is more evidence of how the owners have brainwashed the average fan with the theory:

Lower salaries = lower ticket prices for you

 

[two out of three*]

This is nothing than a PR stunt by the PA... theres no Cap invoved in the proposal so its a non-starter.

When the NHL rejects this the PA will be hooting and hollering "but we tried to negotiate... we tried to come to the table"...

Ya, with a NON STARTER that the NHL have said will NOT solve anything.

Break the PA. Bring in a cap. And Lets get hockey back.

Exactly.

They aren't going to accept anything but a cap, and they know that.. But hey at least they are meeting. It is sort of progress.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

I bet this offer is merely a formality as well.

This will be the players' opportunity to throw up their hands and say "see? we negotiated, they turned us down, we want to bargain, they don't, it's their fault there will be no season".

Why would they do that? You really dont think the players care about the game at all? Hockey is there lives and you would have to think that they are smarter and have better motives than simply looking to find a scapegoat so that they can sit around forever and say "we made a proposal , its not our fault."

These guys want to play hockey and they deserve a fair share of NHL revenue. Maybe that share is too high right now but to place such a high percentage of the blame on players right now is ignorant and absurd.

The NHL is the group that has failed to manage its business smartly and therefore they are the ones who should be working harder to find a creative solution that works for everyone instead of just trying to find a way to somehow win a PR battle and guarentee themselves of profits.

 

[Strangelove]

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, of course both sides need to give in big time but I find it highly unlikely for either side to budge right now...I don't even think this season is a consideration---it's lost already.....As some have said, this is all for PR and legal reasons...I'm sure the NHLPA has compromised even further (but not enough) but while the NHL will agree to the meeting becuase of PR, legal and impasse issues, they will politely tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine...The PA knows this will be the outcome but it's all about perception and next September...

Unfortunately, come next September, PRO HOCKEY will basically be dead in the US..... By next fall, with or without replacement players, AMERICAN public sports fans won't give a hoot if the big boys ever come back....

What all this means is thab Both the PA and the owners better stop acting chuckleheaads and start compromising if they don't want to have a corpse that can not be revived a year from now...

Here are your two conclusions:

1). The owners and the PA have already written-off the season and are only going through the motions for the sake of "PR" and "perception".

2). The NHL will be forever dead in the USA if this season is written-off.



Sorry there Sport, but *both* cannot be true.

Ummmm unless you...... Larry...... have much greater knowledge, insight, and wisdom than can be found within either of the two aforementioned parties....

 

[Larry Melnyk]

Here are your two conclusions:

1). The owners and the PA have already written-off the season and are only going through the motions for the sake of "PR" and "perception".

2). The NHL will be forever dead in the USA if this season is written-off.



Sorry there Sport, but *both* cannot be true.

Ummmm unless you...... Larry...... have much greater knowledge, insight, and wisdom than can be found within either of the two aforementioned parties....

Ah, but I do, especially the wisdom.....Nah, Of course that is just my opinion and the way I read the tea leaves...I honestly believe 1) feeling that both sides have too much hope for a pie-in-the-sky slam dunk..And both sides can't get it.....And 2) is, of course, only conjecture based on 1) coming true (and what it signals about the goals of each side--i.e., going the impasse route and maybe replacemnt players), the idiocy of both sides and the utter insignificance of Hockey in the states...And all just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less....Most of all, I hope I am entirely wrong, which I often am...

 

[PecaFan]

Lower salaries = lower ticket prices for you

Don't bet on it. The whole point is to improve profits, and if you lower revenues at the same time as expenses, you're right back where you started from.

Like most of you, I don't expect anything from this offer. I suspect it's mostly PR, and will still be an offer that doesn't change the fundamental structure of the game, just shuffles some numbers around.