The better career: Larionov vs Oates

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John Flyers Fan

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Reilly311 said:
and you came to this conclusion how?

By watching hockey for the last 30 years.

Reilly311 said:
Based on numbers, yes, Oates had a better career. I bet he would trade some of his points for a stanley cup though.

I'm sure that Oates would trade some of his points for a Stanley Cup.

Problem for you is that winning Cups doesn't make you better.

Larionov was never one of the Red Wings 4 or 5 most important players during their Cup years.

If Ray Bourque finished his career in Boston and never won a Stanley Cup, he still would have been the best defenseman of his generation.

Reilly311 said:
What does "more willing to play in traffic" mean exactly? Why does this even matter?

:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead
 

acr*

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I've said it before and I'll say it again-

Adam Oates is the most underrated player of the past 20 years.

For my money, he's the best pure centerman of that period. He was never as good a hockey playeras Gretzky or Lemieux(so don't think I'm trying to say that), but they played different styles. Oates was the ideal centerman, as opposed to the others being ideal offensive players. His passing skill was amazing, and he could put it in when necessary.
 

Juicer

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Reilly311 said:
and you came to this conclusion how?

I don't mean to step in and answer for John Flyers Fan, but I agree Oates was the better goal scorer. He proved it in Boston when Neely got hurt when he had 45 goals and 142 points in one year.

I pick Oates for the NHL career by far, and Larionov for the overall career.
 

Juicer

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Reilly311 said:
that would be Ron Francis


I don't think so, he was on every underrated list you could find and it got to the point where everyone knew he was really good.
 

acr*

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Yeah, Francis is underrated, but he's not as underrated as Oates IMO. Everyone knows Ron Francis is a franchise player and Hall of Famer whenever you bring up his name, but I never hear Oates getting the credit he deserves, especially when it comes to being a defensive forward. He was Selke-worthy in his prime. He's just always being buried under his former linemates in Hull and Neely. His numbers were influenced by them, but on the other hand, it's not a crime to say that their numbers were influenced by him(I'd say moreso for Neely). When Cam was hurt for the last half of his career, there were times when Oates pretty much carried the offensive load for the B's. He was on lines with guys like Dmitri Kvartalnov and Joe Juneau(he may have been linemates with little Kenny Hodge too, but don't hold me to that). The only other major offensive threat the Bruins had at the time was Ray Bourque, and he was at the blueline.

I didn't realize just how good Oates was until watching some old games a couple months ago. I remembered him being good, but I didn't remember him being that good. I was amazed at his PK ability.
 

Higgy4

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These boards are so funny. In 1 thread people will totally discount points and only talk about championships and intangibles, and this that and the other thing.

Than you get a thread like this where people are basically saying Oates is better based on points.

LOL...I cant figure these boards out. :)
 

Higgy4

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John Flyers Fan said:
Kirk Maltby has 3 stanley Cups, that doesn't make him better than Oates with none. Larionov was a good player for the Red Wings, but he was never one of their 4 or 5 most important players on the Cup winning teams.

Larionov did exactly what you said, he put up decent numbers in the NHL, while Oates has put up great numbers.

Also Larionov did come over at 29, so I wouldn't say all his prime years were spent in Russia.



Oates by a huge margin, and rightly so as he played his entire career in the NHL, and flip a coin overall.

1) We arent compaing Kirk Maltby to Adam Oates. Larionov is the player in comparison.

2) If you dont think Larionov was extremely instrumental to the Wings cups, than you are sadly mistaken.

3) 29 is pretty old to make a debut in the NHL. Its safe to say his numbers were hurt a bit by his late arrival. I am not saying that he would have put up better numbers than Oates. Simply stating that some of his best years were in Russia.

Ya know...you were the same guy trying to discount Mike Gartners number and his induction into the Hall. You said his 708 goals were the only reason. He was only in becuase of his consistency and his stats. You brought up the fact that Gartner never won a cup. Welll...now, here you are defending another consistently good NHLer who has great stats and never won a cup.

Which is it?
 

Higgy4

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VanIslander said:
San Jose first upset Detroit in the playoffs a decade ago in large part because of the play of Larionov. After that, the Red Wings decided to buy his services. I stopped watching him then because I can't stand Detroit.

The Wings didn't "buy" his services. He was traded from San Jose in October of 1995 ( a full 18 months after the Sharks beat the Wings in the 94 Playoffs ) for Ray Sheppard. Sheppard was coming off a season in which he had just scored 30 goals in 43 games during the strike shortened season. He had 36,32,52 and 30 goals in his last 4 years with the Wings.

So, the Wings didnt buy or steal Larionov from anyone.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Higgy4 said:
1) We arent compaing Kirk Maltby to Adam Oates. Larionov is the player in comparison.

2) If you dont think Larionov was extremely instrumental to the Wings cups, than you are sadly mistaken.

3) 29 is pretty old to make a debut in the NHL. Its safe to say his numbers were hurt a bit by his late arrival. I am not saying that he would have put up better numbers than Oates. Simply stating that some of his best years were in Russia.

Ya know...you were the same guy trying to discount Mike Gartners number and his induction into the Hall. You said his 708 goals were the only reason. He was only in becuase of his consistency and his stats. You brought up the fact that Gartner never won a cup. Welll...now, here you are defending another consistently good NHLer who has great stats and never won a cup.

Which is it?

ICups are importnant, but they aren't the be all end all when comparing two players. The fact that Larionov has 3 Stanley Cups is certainly a plus side when discussing his career, but Larionov was a nice player, harldy one the the Wings focal points during the 3 Stanley Cup wins.
 

hockeytown9321

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John Flyers Fan said:
Larionov was a nice player, harldy one the the Wings focal points during the 3 Stanley Cup wins.

Larionov was much more vital than you think. His contributions were easy to miss if you only watched him once in a while. I saw every game he played for Detroit and really didn't appreciate how good he was until watching some of those games on tape recently. He was clearly their best forward in the 1997 conference finals, he was a great influence on Kozlov, Fedorov and Konstantinov. The Red Wings were clearly a different team after he left as a free agent in the summer of 2000 and they jumped at the chance to get him back.

I have no doubt that had he played his entire career in North America that he'd be top 5 in all time points and people would consider him one of the absolute best of all time. No question.
 

David Puddy

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During Igor Lariovov's stay in the NHL, Adam Oates was a much better player. Even if one is to adjust for the two years difference in their ages, Oates has much more impressive numbers. Larionov never appeared in the Top 10 in the NHL in Assists or Points, so Oates clearly had a better NHL career than Larionov.

Adam Oates on the Leader Board:
1988-89: 7th Assists
1989-90: 3rd Assists, 10th Points
1990-91: 2nd Assists, 3rd Points
1991-92:4th Assists, 10th Points
1992-93: 1st Assists, 3rd Points
1993-94: 3rd Assists, 3rd Points
1994-95: 4th Assists, 10th Points
1996-97: 6th Assists
1997-98: 5th Assists
1999-00: 2nd Assists
2000-01: 1st Assists
2001-02: 1st Assists, 7th Points
All-Time: 6th Assists, 13th Points


Here are Larionov's Russian Elite League and National Hockey League statistics:
LEG____GP__G__A___PTS

REL... 440 201 230... 404
NHL... 921 169 475... 644

TOT 1,361 370 705 1,048

Even combined, the Professor's numbers don't match what Oates did in the NHL. It is unfortunate that Larionov couldn't play in the NHL during his prime.

Also, they both have a place in the Hall of Fame if I had a vote.
 

KOVALEV10*

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hockeytown9321 said:
Larionov was much more vital than you think. His contributions were easy to miss if you only watched him once in a while. I saw every game he played for Detroit and really didn't appreciate how good he was until watching some of those games on tape recently. He was clearly their best forward in the 1997 conference finals, he was a great influence on Kozlov, Fedorov and Konstantinov. The Red Wings were clearly a different team after he left as a free agent in the summer of 2000 and they jumped at the chance to get him back.

I have no doubt that had he played his entire career in North America that he'd be top 5 in all time points and people would consider him one of the absolute best of all time. No question.

I wouldnt go as far as that. I mean a guy who cant score for his life being considered one of the best of all time? Nope!
 

hockeytown9321

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KOVALEV10 said:
I wouldnt go as far as that. I mean a guy who cant score for his life being considered one of the best of all time? Nope!

I wouldn't say he couldn't score for his life. He never looked to shoot. When he did, he was far from lost.
 

Higgy4

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John Flyers Fan said:
ICups are importnant, but they aren't the be all end all when comparing two players. The fact that Larionov has 3 Stanley Cups is certainly a plus side when discussing his career, but Larionov was a nice player, harldy one the the Wings focal points during the 3 Stanley Cup wins.

I never said Cups were the "be all, end all". But you downgrade Mike Gartner's career because he never won a cup. I am just asking you to be consistent. Oates has never won a damn thing.

On a WHOLE, Igor Larionov has had a MUCH more succesfull career than Adam Oates. That is simply a fact. Oates doesnt have 1 championship to his name. I would venture to say that Larionov has more than a dozen. That means a ton. If one guy has 2 championships to another guys zero, than you can argue it. But Larionov has probably a dozen or more titles to his name.

Had Larionov played in the NHL from the age or 22-29, he would be alot closer to Oates in points too. But sadly, we didnt get to see him for all of those early years.

I love Adam Oates, I really do. Worst trade in Red Wings history is Oates/Paul McLean for Bernie Federko/Tony McKegney.

But Larionov has had the better career.
 

Higgy4

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KOVALEV10 said:
I wouldnt go as far as that. I mean a guy who cant score for his life being considered one of the best of all time? Nope!

Ask a Carolina Hurricane fan about that ( if you can find 1).
 

Big Phil

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Put it this way. To me Larionov is should be in the HOF based on his career. Not just NHL but in the Soviet system too. Both Larionov and Oates could thread the needle like no other guy not named Gretzky. I think eventually both will make it in there. Oates was good and he put up good enough numbers to make it in eventually I think. This is a good debate and its closer than people think. But Larionov was just too dominant on the KLM line in the 80s that its hard to put Oates over him. Oates was good but he still never made a Canada Cup/Olympic team even if he should have in like '91 or even '96. Both good, but I'll give the nod to the better career to Larionov.
 

kdb209

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Higgy4 said:
The Wings didn't "buy" his services. He was traded from San Jose in October of 1995 ( a full 18 months after the Sharks beat the Wings in the 94 Playoffs ) for Ray Sheppard. Sheppard was coming off a season in which he had just scored 30 goals in 43 games during the strike shortened season. He had 36,32,52 and 30 goals in his last 4 years with the Wings.

So, the Wings didnt buy or steal Larionov from anyone.

The Wings didn't buy or steal him, but they did get him at a discount in trade. He pretty much demaned a trade after the Sharks cut Sergei Makarov in training camp - he felt the Sharks didn't even give Sergei a chance. And Ray Sheppard was one of the least valuable 30 goal scorers in the league - a locker room cancer who the Wings were glad to get rid of.

I still love the unnamed player who referred to Sheppard and Craig Janney as Carcinoma and Melanoma.
 

Block

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Oates. I agree that he was the best pure center in the game for his time period.
 
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