The Best Players To Never Have Been THE Best...

[VanIslander]

Slava Fetisov.

Gretzky said in 1983 that Fetisov was the best defenseman he's ever played against. This was after Gretz's 4th Hart trophy NHL season where he knew Potvin, Robinson and a young Bourque (Raymond already had two 1st team, 2 2nd team all star seasons). It was giving credit to the Soviet defenseman for his role on the dominant international team that had beated NHLers several times.

Note: One could argue Tretiak or Makarov over parts of their career, though Fetisov may be the best candidate at the tail end of the seventies at/after the end of Lafleur's 6-year peak and before/at about when Gretzky left the WHA for the NHL.

 

[Troubadour]

Gretzky said in 1983 that Fetisov was the best defenseman he's ever played against.

Time to remember the real world has never seen as many best and greatest players as Gretzky has seen over the years. Wayne's seeing of things was different from everybody else. On and off the ice.

 

[VMBM]

Time to remember the real world has never seen as many best and greatest players as Gretzky has seen over the years. Wayne's seeing of things was different from everybody else. On and off the ice.

Well, is there a contradictory quote from Gretzky circa 1983? Like "Potvin is the greatest defenceman I've ever played against"...

And I know that Gretzky has said a lot of things, but I don't think the quote is worthless because of that; he was pretty consistent in his praise of Fetisov, and he was certainly not alone with this opinion around that time.

 

[Troubadour]

Well, is there a contradictory quote from Gretzky circa 1983? Like "Potvin is the greatest defenceman I've ever played against"...

Does it really matter?

And I know that Gretzky has said a lot of things, but I don't think the quote is worthless because of that; he was pretty consistent in his praise of Fetisov, and he was certainly not alone with this opinion around that time.

I don't think it's worthless because of Gretzky's tendency to heap praise on people either. Even then, getting mentioned as the greatest player he's ever played with or against, you're still in some good company of the other guys he called the greatest or the best before he got to talk about you or after he had forgotten you

Anyway... It's always good to remember that Gretzky tends to use superlatives rather loosely. And I don't think that tendency just came out of the blue.

Which has nothing to do with how I view Fetisov.

 

[MXD]

That leaves on your list Esposito, Yzerman, Messier, Clarke and Malkin. Malkin has never been far behind Crosby and at times has looked more dominant. I'd give him 2012 as the best player in the world for sure. Messier won the Hart in 1990, but I am guessing everyone still wants Gretzky and Lemieux on their team. Ditto for Yzerman in 1989. Clarke was never the best, I don't think because there was always Orr and then Lafleur, but maybe 1976 for him? That being said he still isn't #1 on this list.

Bossy might come to mind too. Gretzky unseats him right away and Trottier/Lafleur were ahead of him prior.

I think the answer here is Esposito. I don't think anyone peaked higher than him that was still never considered the best in the world. Imagine winning 5 scoring titles, 4 of them in a row, leading the NHL in goals 6 times and winning the Hart twice but still being considered inferior to your teammate. That is about as good as it gets. Maybe 1969 you hand it to Esposito either way, but we could debate that one all day. I'll give it to Esposito here.

...You forgot two things Phil.
Netminders. And D-Men.

D-Men, well, it might be a positionnal bias thing; Doug Harvey might, afterall, have been the best player, it's just that, by the time he was, everyone would've answered "Beliveau" or "Howe" or even possibly "Hull" to this question. Hell, Lidstrom might have been such a player at some point, too.

But, strictly on topic... We're gonna start that whole Top-100 players of all-time sooner or later, and I can probably guarantee that the player who will rank the highest, all the while having absolutely no claim at any point at having been considered the best hockey player on Earth, will be one of :

77 or 33.

I'm firmly in 33's camp myself.

 

[Big Phil]

...You forgot two things Phil.
Netminders. And D-Men.

D-Men, well, it might be a positionnal bias thing; Doug Harvey might, afterall, have been the best player, it's just that, by the time he was, everyone would've answered "Beliveau" or "Howe" or even possibly "Hull" to this question. Hell, Lidstrom might have been such a player at some point, too.

But, strictly on topic... We're gonna start that whole Top-100 players of all-time sooner or later, and I can probably guarantee that the player who will rank the highest, all the while having absolutely no claim at any point at having been considered the best hockey player on Earth, will be one of :

77 or 33.

I'm firmly in 33's camp myself.

True enough, and I guess I should have thought of them more. Patrick Roy definitely comes to mind. Always among the elite goalies in the NHL for his whole 18 year career. Considered the best goalie for sure at times and is the all-time best goalie on some lists. But with Gretzky and Lemieux in the NHL he never had a chance. Then Hasek and Jagr in his later years............yeah, I am trying to think hard of a season where one might have said Patrick Roy is the best player in the NHL. The best I can come up with was a perfect storm in 2002, but that is far from a reality.

Bourque fits in nicely here too. Best defenseman in the NHL several times, but with Gretzky and Lemieux in the NHL he doesn't win here. Lidstrom to a lesser extent than Bourque of course, but there are at least gaps in the NHL where you can at least argue Lidstrom may have been the game's best (2002 perhaps?). Bourque doesn't have that chance. Harvey like Lidstrom has that chance too although Howe probably still wins here.

So yeah, as a forward I am going to stick with Esposito while all-time it is definitely Roy or Bourque. Hasek was definitely considered the best player in the NHL in 1998 I would say.

 

[streitz]

Esposito,Clarke, Dionne, Hawerchuk, Yzerman, Sakic


Roughly in that order chronologically. I'm sure I forgot some.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Bossy & Trottier

 

[authentic]

I think it's Lidstrom. He has many seasons you could say he was 2nd or 3rd but I don't believe he was ever the best player in the world, Jagr/Sakic/Forsberg/Crosby/Ovechkin were responsible for that.

 

[authentic]

Actually then again, it's probably Steve Yzerman in 1988-89.

 

[a79krgm]

I hope I'm not missing the point of this thread … but I consider Frank Mahovlich a very underrated player. His prime playing years fell during the golden years of the sport. Most agree that playing in Toronto (and under Imlach) took a toll on the guy. I can't help but wonder how good he would have been if he played with Howe and Delvecchio his whole career.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzky 81-88
Lemieux 89-97
Hasek\Jagr 98-01
Throne vacated
Thornton/Crosby 05-07
Ovechkin 08-10
Crosby 11-17
Mcdavid 18-

 

[VanIslander]

Gretzky 81-88
Lemieux 89-97
Hasek\Jagr 98-01
Throne vacated
Thornton/Crosby 05-07
Ovechkin 08-10
Crosby 11-17
Mcdavid 18-

Vacated? ... Forsberg was the Art Ross and Hart winner in 2003 before the lockout. After the lockout ended, Petr scored 12 assists in the first six games. He was injured but put up 75 points in just 60 games in Colorado. Then he became the captain of the Flyers. Yeah, injuries would later plague him, but between 1998-03 Forsberg was three times 1st team all star center, identified by Gretzky as a possible next greatest when Wayne retired.

For a few years Forsberg's awesome performances and injuries (abdominal and foot) were seen as Mario like - an Achilles' heel to a demigod.

 

[Jumptheshark]

The guys who could have been the absolute best in the NHL or entire hockey world if not for another player or couple of players... who are your picks?

Jean Beliveau? Bobby Hull? Phil Esposito? Bobby Clarke? Mark Messier? Steve Yzerman? Alex Ovechkin? Evgeni Malkin? Connor McDavid?


I consider Ovechkin to have been the top or at least co-best player circa 2009 (for me personally he was the best at that point) and McDavid to be the best currently.

Try to focus on the historical side of things.

people would say you lost the argument when you named hall of famers


Messier was considered the best for awhile, Hull the best scorer and user of a wig, Esp--goals, Yserman all around best player, Clarke in the 70's was considered one of the toughest, all around around players and one of the best centers--Beliveau--he has in name on the cup 17 times--he must have done something right

just realized OP is a leaf fan so he has Matthews over McDavid, Malkin and Alex C

 

[GlitchMarner]

people would say you lost the argument when you named hall of famers


Messier was considered the best for awhile, Hull the best scorer and user of a wig, Esp--goals, Yserman all around best player, Clarke in the 70's was considered one of the toughest, all around around players and one of the best centers--Beliveau--he has in name on the cup 17 times--he must have done something right

just realized OP is a leaf fan so he has Matthews over McDavid, Malkin and Alex C

I don't think Matthews is better than McDavid. If you had read and comprehended the OP, you would have noted I said I consider McDavid the best currently.

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky 81-88
Lemieux 89-97
Hasek\Jagr 98-01
Throne vacated
Thornton/Crosby 05-07
Ovechkin 08-10
Crosby 11-17
Mcdavid 18-

The most notable players in that stretch to very clearly never be the best in my opinion are Bourque and Lidstrom. It doesn't mean they're necessarily the 2 "best" players missing - but they were close to the top for more years than most without ever really being #1. Can probably lump in Roy there too - I don't think he was ever #1, but at least with playoffs here and there you might argue at some points it made sense to pick him first.

Guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Malkin, Messier...all missing and i think they're all relevant to the discussion - but at least in very short spurts you might argue they were the best (on a season per season basis - worthy hart winners and such). I don't think that's ever true for Bourque and Lidstrom.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

I'm firmly in 33's camp myself.

Marty McSorley appreciates your endorsement.

 

[Hot Water Bottle]

Steve Yzerman? Don Cherry flat out said that he was currently THE best player, at 0:53 of this video:

 

[streitz]

Bossy & Trottier

Trottier was king for a few years after Lafleur and before Gretzky

 

[whcanuck]

I'd say Joe Sakic. Probably his 2000-01 season he was the best player in the league, but his great year almost got overshadowed a bit by Mario's return and Jagr winning another scoring title as a result. Sakic's 95-96 season was also overshadowed by those two guys who both hit 60+ goals and 140+ points.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Messier takes the cake for me here. Sure, he won two Hart Trophies, but at no point in time was he ever considered better than Gretzky or Lemieux.

 

[Allan92]

Aside from the guys mentioned I'd also mention Mike Bossy, Rod Gilbert, Bobby Clarke.

From modern times, I'm gonna go with Erik Karlsson

EDIT

Bossy and Clarke were mentioned but I'd throw them alongside Messier and Park at the top of the list

 

[GlitchMarner]

Aside from the guys mentioned I'd also mention Mike Bossy, Rod Gilbert, Bobby Clarke.

From modern times, I'm gonna go with Erik Karlsson

EDIT

Bossy and Clarke were mentioned but I'd throw them alongside Messier and Park at the top of the list

Was Gilbert a top five player over any extended period of time or at all, though?

 

[Allan92]

Was Gilbert a top five player over any extended period of time or at all, though?

That's a fair question, but for me he's the all time leading scorer on his team and was part of an epic line (the GAG line)....but now that I think of it, yeah I suppose an argument could be made that Hadfield and Ratelle were also very instrumental to his success. It has to be noted though that he often played through injury and was still the best player on a pretty good series of ranger teams that had the misfortune of being around alongside the Habs.

So in short, I guess you could say I reached here. But I still think being the best player on a non-habs roster in the 60's and 70's means you were pretty good or at least in the conversation for top 5 player(s) at the time

 

[The Panther]

Messier takes the cake for me here. Sure, he won two Hart Trophies, but at no point in time was he ever considered better than Gretzky or Lemieux.

Right, but even around 1990 or 1991, did people think Messier was the 3rd-best player in the League? Certainly some did, but I don't think he had any advantage there over, say, Yzerman or Bourque. Two Harts in three years is exceptional, though, for a guy not considered 'the best'.