The Best Players To Never Have Been THE Best...

[vadim sharifijanov]

up through the 1950 season, which was howe's first peak season, rocket richard had played seven full seasons. in those seasons, he was the first team all-star RW six straight times, and was the 2nd team all-star the other time (his first full season, which ended with him breaking newsy lalonde's 25 year old single-season playoff goals record and taking home the cup).

he had the 50 in 50 of course, but also two other goal scoring titles. and even though assists weren't really his thing, he also finished second in points twice. he owned three of the five highest goal scoring seasons ever; had hart finishes of 1, 2, and 3; won two cups; led the league in playoff goals three times (and points once), had the most career playoff goals ever (8 goals over #2), and had by far the highest playoff goals/game average of anyone with double-digit games played (he had 34 goals/46 games).

i get that greatest of all time is a high bar but tbh that's not super far off, accomplishments-wise, from orr's entire career.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Between Orr & Gretzky, there was no clear number one, but a few guys stepped up to make a claim for being number one on a season-to season basis, including Bobby Clarke, Guy Lafleur, Bryan Trottier & Marcel Dionne. Personally, for that time period, I'd pick Denis Potvin as the best player overall, as in he's the one I'd choose if I was serious about building a Cup-winning franchise around a key player.

 

[sharkhawk]

Beliveau
Mikita
Esposito

 

[tony d]

Eric Lindros. Guy was a dominant talent but injuries derailed him and prevented him from being the best.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Eric Lindros. Guy was a dominant talent but injuries derailed him and prevented him from being the best.

When healthy... the best, most dominant player of the 90's not named Lemieux or Jagr.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Eric Lindros. Guy was a dominant talent but injuries derailed him and prevented him from being the best.

Oh yeah, forgot about him. I don't know if he was quite as good as Fedorov in '94 (even on a per game basis), but he may have been on his level or better that season. He was the best in the shortened '95 season but behind Lemieux and Jagr in '96 and then he had trouble staying healthy for the rest of the 90s.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg... oh, what could've been.

From 2002-2005 he was the best, by far.

 

[FerrisRox]

Was Maurice Richard ever (outside of Quebec) considered the best player in the game? I guess there's an argument for c.1944 to 1950, but the competition (even his teammate, Lach, in 1945) was pretty stiff.

Richard was absolutely considered the best in the game for a juncture of his career.

I spoke to many players of that era and it was not uncommon at all to hear them sing The Rocket's praises as the best in the league and there were multiple guys that told me they thought he was a better player than Howe.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Was Maurice Richard ever (outside of Quebec) considered the best player in the game? I guess there's an argument for c.1944 to 1950, but the competition (even his teammate, Lach, in 1945) was pretty stiff.

LOL really? Rocket Richard was the best player for a good stretch of his career and not only "inside of Quebec" but he was victim of discrimination by the so-called "English Canadian elite".

 

[Neutrinos]

Bobby Hull has 3 scoring titles and back-to-back Hart trophies, so I think a case could certainly be made that at some point he was considered the best player in hockey

 

[VanIslander]

LOL really? Rocket Richard was the best player for a good stretch of his career and not only "inside of Quebec" but he was victim of discrimination by the so-called "English Canadian elite".

LOL. He was 7 times top-3 in scoring but 14 times an all star (the league MORE than recognized him). He was waaaaay behind Geoffrion in dynasty playoff scoring (even factoring in one suspension and one injury). He was also behind Beliveau.

 

[The Panther]

LOL really? Rocket Richard was the best player for a good stretch of his career and not only "inside of Quebec" but he was victim of discrimination by the so-called "English Canadian elite".

Calm down there, I'm a huge fan of Richard's. I'm just mentioning 'outside of Quebec' because it's normal for the local fanbase (esp. given the very discrimination you mention) to impartially rank their own stars.

If the top guys / coaches / GMs for Boston and Detroit and Toronto said Richard was the best player in the NHL in the 1940s, it holds a little more weight with me.

 

[The Panther]

From 2002-2005 he was the best, by far.

I think Forsberg probably was the best player, pound-for-pound, in the NHL circa 2000 to 2004, but it definitely was not "by far".
- 2000-01: Jagr and Mario go crazy for half a season in Pittsburgh
- 2001-02: Forsberg doesn't play
- 2002-03: Forsberg is the best player and gets the hardware, but note that NHL players voted Naslund best player
- 2003-04: Forsberg is probably the best player, but plays less than half a season

 

[authentic]

I think Forsberg probably was the best player, pound-for-pound, in the NHL circa 2000 to 2004, but it definitely was not "by far".
- 2000-01: Jagr and Mario go crazy for half a season in Pittsburgh
- 2001-02: Forsberg doesn't play
- 2002-03: Forsberg is the best player and gets the hardware, but note that NHL players voted Naslund best player
- 2003-04: Forsberg is probably the best player, but plays less than half a season

That's why I said 2002-05 not starting at 2000. I'm also not sure anyone heavier than him outscored him from 2002-05 either.

 

[Terry Yake]

lindros, ovechkin, and roy just to name a few. you can throw bourque in there too

 

[Nick Hansen]

What about Doug Harvey? Damn stellar record on that guy through his prime.

Doug Harvey Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

LOL. He was 7 times top-3 in scoring but 14 times an all star (the league MORE than recognized him). He was waaaaay behind Geoffrion in dynasty playoff scoring (even factoring in one suspension and one injury). He was also behind Beliveau.

LOL, I've never said he was the best player for all his career, Beliveau was not there before 1950 and not the better player before 1954, same for Boom Boom Geoffrion but nice try though. And you are waaaaay so wrong if you don't think Rocket Richard was not victim of discrimination because he was a French Canadian.

 

[Austerlitz]

I don't think Doug Harvey was ever considered the best player in the world, but I have him as the 5th best player ever.

I really think this is the answer.

 

[Killion]

I really think this is the answer.

Well, maybe Im misinterpreting the threads title but Doug Harvey was considered the best player by some, best Defenceman by many during his salad days in Montreal, a year in Manhattan..... Some old timers Ive encountered claiming he was better than Orr. Certainly one of the most influential game changing players of the past 100+ years of hockey history.

 

[crobro]

Brad Park

 

[VMBM]

Brad Park

Was he ever "the 2nd best player in the world"?! Or even 3rd best? The 2nd best defenceman after you-know-who, maybe.

 

[daver]

When healthy... the best, most dominant player of the 90's not named Lemieux or Jagr.

I think most had him as the best, or the best in waiting, after Mario retired in 1997. He could not close the deal the next year though.

 

[bobholly39]

Players who WERE the "best" in the world include:

Richard (starting with him), Howe, Hull, Mikita (? i'm assuming maybe he was, but could be corrected if not), Orr, Lafleur, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Hasek, Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid

Maybes to:

Beliveau - 1955 is only 1 year hardly counts - and he overlaps pretty heavily with Howe, than Hull/Mikita. I'm tempted to say "no" but maybe others disagree
Forsberg - 2002-2004 as others have said. I feel as though that period was a bit fluid, Forsberg certainly wasn't head and shoulders above others - but maybe you can give that stretch to him and include him
Malkin - He was right there with Ovi and Crosby many years - does this count? Maybe.

Pick your top 20 of all time player list and list the names who don't appear above and you have your answer. Two notable names i'll mention are Bourque and Lidstrom. Bourque could have been in running but Lemieux/Gretzky (and than Jagr/Hasek) prevented him. And Lidstrom - well he simply never was, even during some "weaker" competition some years. Fantastic player - but his peak isn't his strength.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Forsberg - 2002-2004 as others have said. I feel as though that period was a bit fluid, Forsberg certainly wasn't head and shoulders above others - but maybe you can give that stretch to him and include him

Pretty safe bet to include him, based on the per-82 breakdowns of the first five years of the century:

2001-2005 (Season/Playoffs)

Player	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	P/G	G-82	A-82	PTS-82	+/-82
Peter Forsberg	237	93	237	330	123	1.392	32.2	82.0	114.2	42.6
Mario Lemieux	186	81	158	239	-30	1.285	35.7	69.7	105.4	-13.2
Jaromir Jagr	324	155	230	385	24	1.188	39.2	58.2	97.4	6.1
Markus Naslund	339	173	209	382	39	1.127	41.8	50.6	92.4	9.4
Joe Thornton	316	123	230	353	52	1.117	31.9	59.7	91.6	13.5
Joe Sakic	364	171	229	400	55	1.099	38.5	51.6	90.1	12.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Big Phil]

The guys who could have been the absolute best in the NHL or entire hockey world if not for another player or couple of players... who are your picks?

Jean Beliveau? Bobby Hull? Phil Esposito? Bobby Clarke? Mark Messier? Steve Yzerman? Alex Ovechkin? Evgeni Malkin? Connor McDavid?


I consider Ovechkin to have been the top or at least co-best player circa 2009 (for me personally he was the best at that point) and McDavid to be the best currently.

Try to focus on the historical side of things.

Beliveau for sure in 1956 and with all things considered arguably the best player in the world from 1955-'61, Howe is the only other to possibly be ahead of him at this time, and maybe he is, but I would say based on everything that happened in 1956 you pick Beliveau at least.

Hull was definitely the best more or less in the 1960s. Ovechkin at the very worst was co-best up until 2010 with Crosby. There were pockets of time when he was ahead of Crosby. They flip flopped those years. McDavid is considered by many to be the best today, although let's wait until the end of the year to see if he truly has surpassed Sid.

That leaves on your list Esposito, Yzerman, Messier, Clarke and Malkin. Malkin has never been far behind Crosby and at times has looked more dominant. I'd give him 2012 as the best player in the world for sure. Messier won the Hart in 1990, but I am guessing everyone still wants Gretzky and Lemieux on their team. Ditto for Yzerman in 1989. Clarke was never the best, I don't think because there was always Orr and then Lafleur, but maybe 1976 for him? That being said he still isn't #1 on this list.

Bossy might come to mind too. Gretzky unseats him right away and Trottier/Lafleur were ahead of him prior.

I think the answer here is Esposito. I don't think anyone peaked higher than him that was still never considered the best in the world. Imagine winning 5 scoring titles, 4 of them in a row, leading the NHL in goals 6 times and winning the Hart twice but still being considered inferior to your teammate. That is about as good as it gets. Maybe 1969 you hand it to Esposito either way, but we could debate that one all day. I'll give it to Esposito here.