The Best PLayer In The History of The NHL

charlio lemieux*

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You first.

Defensemen don't have nearly as many scoring opportunities as a forward. That's a fact.

Oh so now all his offensive stats need an asterix beside them because he didn't get as many scoring opportunities? Sheesh!!!!

Defensman or not, if Gretzky can win 9 Hart trophies, surely a player who is better than him should have won almost as many?
 

The_Eck

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Jan 5, 2006
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Well you would think the best player ever would be able to win the scoring title more than a measley 2 times. Espo, LaFleur, Jagr, Mikita, Hull, all won it more than twice, but are all considered well beneath Orr.

Whereas Gretzky won the Art Ross 10 times by beating players like;
Messier(2nd all-time points)
Francis (4th all-time)
Dionne(5th All-time)
Yzerman(6th All-time)
Coffey(10th All-time)
Sakic(11th All-time)
Trottier (14th All-time)
Oates(15th All-time)
Gilmour(16th All-time)
Hawerchuk(17th All-time)
Robitaille(19th All-time)
Hull(20th All-time)
D. Savard(23rd All-time)
P. Stastny(32nd All-time)
*Lemieux(7th All-time)*

Gretzky absolutely, overwhelmingly, dominated an era that produced 13 of the top 20 all-time point producers in the history of the NHL, not counting himself. The only Notable exception is #7 All-time in scoring, Mario Lemieux, who was entering his prime as Gretzky was ending his, and was the only player in the entire era who could even come close to Gretzky's skill and offensive prowess.

So sorry if I don't buy Bobby Orr being sooooo dominating when he was getting beat by his own teammates fo the Art Ross, and Hart Trophies. There were obviously players in Orr's era that weren't that far off his skill level. Otherwise he would have dominated the individual awards the same way Gretzky and, to a lesser extent, Lemieux did. So if we judge a player against his peers, Gretzky dominated his peers longer and by a bigger margin than Bobby Orr dominated his own peers.

To me that means Gretzky is #1 overall, All-time.

You do realize that Orr was a defencemen right??? :shakehead
 

The_Eck

Registered User
Jan 5, 2006
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0
Montreal
Thanks SenRule, but your kind words are not needed.

Best to ignore the child. Remember, it's summer and school's out.

He'll be gone soon enough, back on the playground learning his next new slogan which he will repeat continually ("get bent!"). :dunce:

It's amusing and nakedly evident when a fool comes on to the board attempting to talk to a subject about which he knows absolutely nothing. ;)


:biglaugh: Good one.
 

RUSqueelin*

Registered User
Nov 2, 2005
1,061
0
Funny, from reading these boards for a while I just noticed something. Of all the posters who have had the opportunity to watch both Orr and Gretzky play, they all say Orr was the best they saw (I might have missed one poster so we'll say 99% for safe measure). Could this be a coincidence?

For what its worth, like any reasonable person would say, it's a coin-flip, opinion etc etc so no one is wrong. But could we please stop the ridiculous commentary that Orr couldn't have been as good as Gretzky because he only won two Art Ross's.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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Funny, from reading these boards for a while I just noticed something. Of all the posters who have had the opportunity to watch both Orr and Gretzky play, they all say Orr was the best they saw (I might have missed one poster so we'll say 99% for safe measure). Could this be a coincidence?

I remember a sociological study which found that most sports fans remember the time when they started watching a sport as "the best era". I can't cite the paper, but I know that Carroll, Palmer and Thorn mention it in The Hidden Game of Football.

So someone who started watching hockey in the 1950s would naturally think of it as "the best", and would probably pick Gordie Howe as the best ever.

And someone who say Orr and Gretzky play would most likely (based on the study) pick Orr.
 

Trottier

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Feb 27, 2002
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I remember a sociological study which found that most sports fans remember the time when they started watching a sport as "the best era".

That's a GREAT point, and one I try to remain cognizant of all the time, as I watch the game. We do tend to romanticize the heroes of our youth. Or, as someone else once out it "the good old days weren't that great." ;)

It's why, as I suggest, some old cogers are incapable of acknowledging the evolution of the game, and greats of today...while some younger fans unfortunately tend to think the world - and NHL - started yesterday (or at least the day they were born.

I personally find it distasteful when the latter demean players that came before their time. It's a blatant disrespect for the great game itself, is poor form and born of ignorance and lack of curiousity.

All that said, I think your Orr/Gretzky point is not a great example, as their time periods as players butted up against one another. I think the bias comes into play when, for example, one were comparing a contemporary player like Crosby with Orr, where a relatively huge gap in time (an entire generation+) has passed.

***

I personally think the best judge are NHL players, coaches and executives. For example, when one hears Milt Schmidt, a man as old as the hills (and middle aged when Orr was breaking in, so he saw many before and after) state unequivocally that he will never see a bettter player (a common refrain among many in the game), it's pretty presuasive. Likewise, when a contemporary like Bobby Clarke, a man who would be hard-pressed to say a kind thing about his own mother ;) , let alone an opposing player, states that Bobby Orr was the epitome of what every hockey player should ever strive to be, it holds a lot of weight. Moreso, than say, a poster on HF, or even my own personal recollections of #4.
 
Last edited:

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
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Bentley reunion
"Stats are for losers" Eh?

So Why the hell are you bragging up Orr's Art Ross' for then?

Oh Stats are good for Orr, but not Gretzky? What a crock. LMAO
I didn't say that Orr's the best because he won two Art Ross Trophies from the blue-line. It certainly helps the argument of those who support Orr in the best ever argument. My statement was simply refuting your problem that Orr only won two Art Ross Trophies.

Bobby Orr is the best player in NHL history, not because of the Art Ross Trophies, but because he dominated all aspects of the game, in a way that nobody else ever has. Likely the fastest skater of all time, and maybe the best skater of all time. Speed, agility, balance, strength on his skates, he had it all. Not quite as smart as Gretzky, but not far behind. Tremendous strength. Excellent defensively and not afraid to get involved physically. Was known to kill off penalties by himself.
 

soulok*

Guest
Bobby Orr was not as good as Gretzky, Wayne Gretzky is the GREATEST player to put on a pair of skates. I've watched games and videos of both these players on several occasions, what strikes me most about Orr is he commands attention and loves to skate all over the ice with the puck, but what Strikes me even more about Gretzky is he's unbeleivable perception of the play on the ice. He was a Chess player playing chess while the rest of the players on the ice were playing snakes and ladders :). It is without a doubt if Bobby and Wayne played on the same team who would be more dominant. Bobby would attract the attention and Wayne would score all the points! There are good players such as Yzerman, Dionne, Hull, etc, there are great players such as Lemieux, Howe , Orr, Messier, then there is this player named GRETZKY- He was a freak of nature. Not physically but mentally. He was soo freakishly good at what he did it kind of made the rest of his generation look average at best. We are talking about Players like Hawerchuck, Statsny, Yzerman, Messier, Coffey, Hull, Dionne, Lafleur, Bourque etc. Wayne schooled all of these guys and he did it on a nightly basis. I remember Harry sinden once saying " that Gretzky kid, i would trade my whole TEAM! just to have him play on my side for 1 day" . Sinden had Neely, Bourque, Janney, Oates on his team. Its mind boggling to concede Gretzky as inferior to anyone in any era. He will always be the greatest. His records will stand for a very long time. It will take a machine of some sort to break his single season goal scorong records, or his assists!!!!! the man has more assists then anyone else has points !!!!!!! and Bobby Orr is better??????? for anyone doubting Gretzky ..maybe you should check out the record books. Its obsolete because one man was the sole reason why.

Gretzky

Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Messier
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
I remember a sociological study which found that most sports fans remember the time when they started watching a sport as "the best era". I can't cite the paper, but I know that Carroll, Palmer and Thorn mention it in The Hidden Game of Football.

So someone who started watching hockey in the 1950s would naturally think of it as "the best", and would probably pick Gordie Howe as the best ever.

And someone who say Orr and Gretzky play would most likely (based on the study) pick Orr.
This is an excellent point. As recently as a decade ago, there were fans in Boston who would tell you that Eddie Shore, not Bobby Orr, was the greatest defenceman of all-time. These are people who grew up watching Shore win four Hart Trophies as league MVP for his dominant all-round play. (Shore was likely the best pre-Original 6 player). Now these fans are rapidly dwindling, as most of them would be in their early 80s, at the earliest. But it's still an interesting perspective.
 

chooch*

Guest
Bobby Orr was not as good as Gretzky, Wayne Gretzky is the GREATEST player to put on a pair of skates. I've watched games and videos of both these players on several occasions, what strikes me most about Orr is he commands attention and loves to skate all over the ice with the puck, but what Strikes me even more about Gretzky is he's unbeleivable perception of the play on the ice. He was a Chess player playing chess while the rest of the players on the ice were playing snakes and ladders :). It is without a doubt if Bobby and Wayne played on the same team who would be more dominant. Bobby would attract the attention and Wayne would score all the points! There are good players such as Yzerman, Dionne, Hull, etc, there are great players such as Lemieux, Howe , Orr, Messier, then there is this player named GRETZKY- He was a freak of nature. Not physically but mentally. He was soo freakishly good at what he did it kind of made the rest of his generation look average at best. We are talking about Players like Hawerchuck, Statsny, Yzerman, Messier, Coffey, Hull, Dionne, Lafleur, Bourque etc. Wayne schooled all of these guys and he did it on a nightly basis. I remember Harry sinden once saying " that Gretzky kid, i would trade my whole TEAM! just to have him play on my side for 1 day" . Sinden had Neely, Bourque, Janney, Oates on his team. Its mind boggling to concede Gretzky as inferior to anyone in any era. He will always be the greatest. His records will stand for a very long time. It will take a machine of some sort to break his single season goal scorong records, or his assists!!!!! the man has more assists then anyone else has points !!!!!!! and Bobby Orr is better??????? for anyone doubting Gretzky ..maybe you should check out the record books. Its obsolete because one man was the sole reason why.

Gretzky

Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Messier


Gretzky is 12th on Choochs all time list since 1971.

btw Sinden said Orr was the best player ever and Lafleur was the most goal dangerous. And after watching what Mario did to Bourque, I think Harry just went back to his bourbon and was rendered speechless.
 

OvechkinDomination*

Guest
You do realize that Orr was a defencemen right??? :shakehead

It doesn't matter if you're a defensman or forward or goaltender, the Hart Trophy can be ANYONE in the league and Gretzky had that award 9 times.

Orr? 2? 3?

Lemieux? 3 maybe even 4?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y4YF_dLWSg

That guy in that vidoe, IS the greatest and no one will ever, EVER dominate the game of Hockey like Wayne Gretzky did.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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Gretzky is 12th on Choochs all time list since 1971. .

The kind of "greatest" list that has Gretzky the 12th best player in the past 35 years is the kind of list I would expect to be put together by someone who refers to themselves in the third person. Well-done. :shakehead
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
I didn't say that Orr's the best because he won two Art Ross Trophies from the blue-line. It certainly helps the argument of those who support Orr in the best ever argument. My statement was simply refuting your problem that Orr only won two Art Ross Trophies.

Bobby Orr is the best player in NHL history, not because of the Art Ross Trophies, but because he dominated all aspects of the game, in a way that nobody else ever has. Likely the fastest skater of all time, and maybe the best skater of all time. Speed, agility, balance, strength on his skates, he had it all. Not quite as smart as Gretzky, but not far behind. Tremendous strength. Excellent defensively and not afraid to get involved physically. Was known to kill off penalties by himself.

OK sure, let me know when you remember how he used to jump tall buildings in a single bound.

You can't compare a player pre-1980 to todays players when it comes to things like speed and strength.
 

DayWalk3r

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Sep 13, 2005
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The greatest player in my eyes is Orr slightly followed by Gretz.

The best player tho, dunno.. like I said in another thread, you cant compare how good the players is/was from different era's.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
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OK sure, let me know when you remember how he used to jump tall buildings in a single bound.

You can't compare a player pre-1980 to todays players when it comes to things like speed and strength.

The difference in training regiments and diet is very little between the early 70's when Orr dominated and the 1980's when Gretzky did. It is only ten years. There wasn't even that much of a chnage in equipment except that nearly everyone began to wear helmets and the skates were a bit better.

The big changes were in the later 80's and early 90's. The difference between Orr and Gretzky is ten seasons. If not for Orr being injured they would have ended up playing in the same league for 5-10 seasons.
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
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Bentley reunion
OK sure, let me know when you remember how he used to jump tall buildings in a single bound.

You can't compare a player pre-1980 to todays players when it comes to things like speed and strength.
Yet people who have been watching for a long time will tell you that Tim Horton is the strongest player of all-time. Guys like Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Rocket Richard, Jean Beliveau, the Mahovlichs and Orr rate among the strongest in the history of the game.

Two major changes happened in 1979: the death of the WHA, and the advent of the 18-year-old draft. It's not like the players became instantly stronger and faster in 1980. Larry Robinson was a star in the 1970s. At age 34 (turned 35 a few days after the season ended), he was a second team all-star and keyed the Habs Cup victory in 1985-86. Players who started their career in the early 1970s continued to thrive into the 1980s. Those who started in the first half of the 1980s were still top players in the 1990s and even the 2000s. Some players who started or were drafted in the late 1980s are still elite players today.
 

alanschu

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
8,658
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Edmonton, Alberta
I remember a sociological study which found that most sports fans remember the time when they started watching a sport as "the best era". I can't cite the paper, but I know that Carroll, Palmer and Thorn mention it in The Hidden Game of Football.

So someone who started watching hockey in the 1950s would naturally think of it as "the best", and would probably pick Gordie Howe as the best ever.

And someone who say Orr and Gretzky play would most likely (based on the study) pick Orr.

Yep.

I see the same thing in basketball. For a long time I refused to acknowledge any current basktball player as being anywhere near as good as Jordan. Jordan was who I grew up watching, and made the biggest impact on me.

There are people that prefer Johnson and Bird. And older people still will start prefering players like Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem.


Nostalgia is an important factor, and clouds things in a very positive aura.

It takes a very special player to uproot the defacto "special player" in our hearts.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
Yet people who have been watching for a long time will tell you that Tim Horton is the strongest player of all-time. Guys like Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Rocket Richard, Jean Beliveau, the Mahovlichs and Orr rate among the strongest in the history of the game.
Which leads me to my conclusion that most hockey memories are like fish stories, they get better every time they are told. But anyway, you have listed some of the elite. Sure they may still be among the fastest or strongest, but they wouldn't dominate the current NHL players the way they dominated the players from their own era. On average, as a whole, with the training done today, players are stronger and faster than they have ever been The same thing will likey be said 20 years from now aswell. Humans in general are always improving.

Two major changes happened in 1979: the death of the WHA, and the advent of the 18-year-old draft. It's not like the players became instantly stronger and faster in 1980. Larry Robinson was a star in the 1970s. At age 34 (turned 35 a few days after the season ended), he was a second team all-star and keyed the Habs Cup victory in 1985-86. Players who started their career in the early 1970s continued to thrive into the 1980s. Those who started in the first half of the 1980s were still top players in the 1990s and even the 2000s. Some players who started or were drafted in the late 1980s are still elite players today.


If you check though, those players that lasted, into the 1990's and 2000's are players who went the extra step. Cris Chelios and Rod Brind'amour are great examples of two older players who are probably in better shape than 80% of the NHL players under 30. It is the training, diet and preparation that is making the players better for longer. Have you not noticed that "prime years" have gone from the early to mid 20's, even during the 80's, to now the late 20's to the early 30's. Players now need time to develop their strength, and even a #2 overall draft pick like Spezza has had to work on his skating.

All I'm saying is that with todays training and health awareness the players and league as a whole, is stronger and faster than it ever was. It is not fair, or reasonable to compare the pre-personal trainer/fitness awareness, pre-1980's, to the health and fitness movement that has been here for the last 20 years.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
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Which leads me to my conclusion that most hockey memories are like fish stories, they get better every time they are told. But anyway, you have listed some of the elite. Sure they may still be among the fastest or strongest, but they wouldn't dominate the current NHL players the way they dominated the players from their own era. On average, as a whole, with the training done today, players are stronger and faster than they have ever been The same thing will likey be said 20 years from now aswell. Humans in general are always improving.


If you check though, those players that lasted, into the 1990's and 2000's are players who went the extra step. Cris Chelios and Rod Brind'amour are great examples of two older players who are probably in better shape than 80% of the NHL players under 30. It is the training, diet and preparation that is making the players better for longer. Have you not noticed that "prime years" have gone from the early to mid 20's, even during the 80's, to now the late 20's to the early 30's. Players now need time to develop their strength, and even a #2 overall draft pick like Spezza has had to work on his skating.

All I'm saying is that with todays training and health awareness the players and league as a whole, is stronger and faster than it ever was. It is not fair, or reasonable to compare the pre-personal trainer/fitness awareness, pre-1980's, to the health and fitness movement that has been here for the last 20 years.


The 2 points that lead to the failure of your argument are that the AVERAGE player has increased with better training and nutrition. Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe etc are not average players. They are the best ever.

The second point of failure in your argument is that you cite 1980 as some kind of date where training and nutrition vastly improved. That simply is not the time it happened. It happened in the very late 80's and early 90's. Extensive weight training was not practiced by most players and teams for most of the 1980's. A player like Scott Stevens was on the cutting edge of that movement in the mid 1980's. It was not fully adopted by even the majority of players until later in the 1980's and the early-mid 1970's were not much different then the mid 80's.

Mario Lemieux smoked, as well as many other players in the lateer 80's and early 90's. Wayne Gretzky could not bench press his weight when he was on the Oilers. He did not really do extensive weight training until later in his career past his peak. He was far, far stronger at 35 then at 25.

Players like Tim Horton, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe were just masively strong genetically. They did not need to lift a ton of weights to make them that way. Look at a picture of Bobby Hull with his shirt off in the 1960's. He is ripped and he didn't lift weights. Look at Gordie Howe's shoulders even as a 60 or 70 year old he is a freak of a man built like a truck.
 

charlio lemieux*

Guest
The 2 points that lead to the failure of your argument are that the AVERAGE player has increased with better training and nutrition. Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe etc are not average players. They are the best ever.

The second point of failure in your argument is that you cite 1980 as some kind of date where training and nutrition vastly improved. That simply is not the time it happened. It happened in the very late 80's and early 90's. Extensive weight training was not practiced by most players and teams for most of the 1980's. A player like Scott Stevens was on the cutting edge of that movement in the mid 1980's. It was not fully adopted by even the majority of players until later in the 1980's and the early-mid 1970's were not much different then the mid 80's.

Mario Lemieux smoked, as well as many other players in the lateer 80's and early 90's. Wayne Gretzky could not bench press his weight when he was on the Oilers. He did not really do extensive weight training until later in his career past his peak. He was far, far stronger at 35 then at 25.

Players like Tim Horton, Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe were just masively strong genetically. They did not need to lift a ton of weights to make them that way. Look at a picture of Bobby Hull with his shirt off in the 1960's. He is ripped and he didn't lift weights. Look at Gordie Howe's shoulders even as a 60 or 70 year old he is a freak of a man built like a truck.


Ofcourse you would find problems. What a vulture.

First, What the hell are you talking about? On average, as a whole. You have trouble with that?

Second, What decade did the health craze start in? The 1980's. So get a grip take a pill and chill man. Infact why don't you just put me on your ignore list. I know I won't miss these nice little chats.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
Ofcourse you would find problems. What a vulture.

First, What the hell are you talking about? On average, as a whole. You have trouble with that?

Second, What decade did the health craze start in? The 1980's. So get a grip take a pill and chill man. Infact why don't you just put me on your ignore list. I know I won't miss these nice little chats.

Why don't you put me on your ignore list then. I write what I think is true and I don't need you to personally attack me for posting in this thread. How am I a vulture. I have posted in pretty much every thread in the NHL History boards for the last year. I am not following you around attacking you. You are the one who seems to want to pick some kind of fight with me in multiple threads for no reason.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
You write garbage. Cup-boy you started this **** in another thread.

Why don't you and Trottier go take a jar of vasoline and rent a room, and get to know one another?

If you keep posting stuff like that you won't be able to post in any thread.
 

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