Music: The Beatles, greatest "popular consensus" band of all time?

[DaaaaB's]

I'm trying to understand why you think Hitler being mentioned as an example of people/things can be iconic but not a good thing when the discussion has a precedent of iconic bands who people enjoy is relevant? Obviously iconic bands are things who people enjoy and aren't iconic because they were a pos.

Because the person I replied to stated that nothing positive came from the Black album so it's not iconic. I simply pointed out that bad things can be iconic too. I guess my example was too extreme for a touchy fella like you.

And no not all iconic bands are bands people enjoy listening too. Spice girls are an iconic band and their music makes me wanna hove an ice pick in my ears. Obviously, they have their fans too but music is very subjective so don't except everyone to agree that n iconic band/album is good. Most diehard Metallica dont care much for the Black album. If you do then that's fine too.

 

[ORRFForever]

It's pretty sad that I can't use Hitler to make a simple point without people freaking out. Especially when I clearly stated that he is the biggest piece of shit in the history of the world. Once again, there was no comparison made at all. Simply pointing out that the definition of an icon includes people remembered for bad things too.

Don't worry about it, my friend. Life is good!

 

[Hammettf2b]

Because the person I replied to stated that nothing positive came from the Black album so it's not iconic. I simply pointed out that bad things can be iconic too. I guess my example was too extreme for a touchy fella like you.

And no not all iconic bands are bands people enjoy listening too. Spice girls are an iconic band and their music makes me wanna hove an ice pick in my ears. Obviously, they have their fans too but music is very subjective so don't except everyone to agree that n iconic band/album is good. Most diehard Metallica dont care much for the Black album. If you do then that's fine too.

I never questioned the person for liking/disliking the black album. I questioned him on at least recognizing its massive appeal and to reject that purely on ones likes/dislikes is very narrow minded. I think this is where we agree.

 

[Shareefruck]

I thought the Hitler point was reasonable and salient as well. For starters, it wasn't a comparison at all, it was an analogy to explain why something being iconic as a concept is not an undeniable good that must be acknowledged and appreciated as inherent value, which is true. Second of all, being offended by the mere mention of Hitler just because it's Hitler is a bit much. Third, the "but it's not something people enjoy so it's irrelevant" point doesn't fly because Hitler was certainly wildly compelling, influential, and successful in stoking people's fervor and enthusiasm (in a way that THEY viewed as positive) for something that in reality is a bad idea. The same mechanics can be at play here and it would be poor reading comprehension to treat it as a dumb "__ is as bad as Hitler" thing. It's not much different from saying "Disco or reality television is wildly iconic, influential and huge-- I can recognize the reality of that, but I don't have to appreciate it nor does it necessarily have to correlate with how good I think it is, as music." This attitude of strong-arming people into agreeing with your opinions about value with an appeal to popularity (and treating any contrary value judgment as narrow-minded) is very unfair, IMO, but we already got into that whole song and dance in the last thread, and it would be better to just agree to disagree on it.

In contrast, Bill Cosby is a bad example, but not for the reason implied. As an entertainer/comedian, his contributions to the world were positive and respectable despite horrific actions on the side that are unrelated to this. Hitler's bad ideas are what made him iconic, popular, and compelling.

 

[Aladyyn]

I never questioned the person for liking/disliking the black album. I questioned him on at least recognizing its massive appeal and to reject that purely on ones likes/dislikes is very narrow minded. I think this is where we agree.

Commercial success is only one aspect. The Beatles are the consensus greatest band because of a combination of popularity, influence, and undeniable quality. Black Album only has popularity going for it (its influence was undoubtedly very negative).

 

[Hammettf2b]

Commercial success is only one aspect. The Beatles are the consensus greatest band because of a combination of popularity, influence, and undeniable quality. Black Album only has popularity going for it (its influence was undoubtedly very negative).

I'm not arguing against that as I agree but I still find it hard to believe the Black Album as a whole has a very negative influence. Can you explain?

 

[Hammettf2b]

I thought the Hitler point was reasonable and salient as well. For starters, it wasn't a comparison at all, it was an analogy to explain why something being iconic as a concept is not an undeniable good that must be acknowledged and appreciated as inherent value, which is true. Second of all, being offended by the mere mention of Hitler just because it's Hitler is a bit much. Third, the "but it's not something people enjoy so it's irrelevant" point doesn't fly because Hitler was certainly wildly compelling, influential, and successful in stoking people's fervor and enthusiasm (in a way that THEY viewed as positive) for something that in reality is a bad idea. The same mechanics can be at play here and it would be poor reading comprehension to treat it as a dumb "__ is as bad as Hitler" thing. It's not much different from saying "Disco or reality television is wildly iconic, influential and huge-- I can recognize the reality of that, but I don't have to appreciate it nor does it necessarily have to correlate with how good I think it is as music." This attitude of strong-arming people into agreeing with your opinions about value with an appeal to popularity is very unfair, IMO, but we already got into that whole song and dance in the last thread.

In contrast, Bill Cosby is a bad example, but not for the reason implied. As an entertainer, his contributions to the world were positive and respectable despite horrific actions on the side that are unrelated to this.

"Second of all, being offended by the mere mention of Hitler just because it's Hitler is a bit much."
Not sure if that is directed at me or not since I never claimed I was offended nor did I imply it but just in case it is directed at me, I will reiterate. I think the Hitler comparison is out of context because it imply's that Metallica's Black Album could have as much hate as Hitler did when saying things can be iconic and still be horrible. The consensus is that Hitler was a horrible person. Is the consensus that the Black Album is a horrible album on the same level as Hitler? Do you have the numbers to back that up? If so I have no problem with conceding my point. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ORRFForever]

Commercial success is only one aspect. The Beatles are the consensus greatest band because of a combination of popularity, influence, and undeniable quality.

Yup.

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm not arguing against that as I agree but I still find it hard to believe the Black Album as a whole has a very negative influence. Can you explain?

Numerous metal bands shifted their sound in a more mainstream direction in attempts to replicate Black Album's success. 90s were basically a dead decade for heavy and thrash metal as a result of this.

 

[Shareefruck]

"Second of all, being offended by the mere mention of Hitler just because it's Hitler is a bit much."
Not sure if that is directed at me or not since I never claimed I was offended nor did I imply it but just in case it is directed at me, I will reiterate. I think the Hitler comparison is out of context because it imply's that Metallica's Black Album could have as much hate as Hitler did when saying things can be iconic and still be horrible. The consensus is that Hitler was a horrible person. Is the consensus that the Black Album is a horrible album on the same level as Hitler? Do you have the numbers to back that up? If so I have no problem with conceding my point. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

It was directed at ORRForever's suggestion that Hitler should be a taboo thing to bring up in an entertainment forum. That seems unnecessary to me.

Regarding your point, it does not imply that Metallica's Black Album is or can be as hated as Hitler is at all-- I think that's overly reactionary/presumptuous and jumping to conclusions (if anything THAT's taking it out of context). The only thing it implies is that the premise that iconic popularity is relevant to how good a band or album should be considered is faulty in principle-- not necessarily anything about comparable severity (this is why bad reading comprehension was brought up, because that implication was unreasonably assumed) or whether or not that's actually true of The Black Album specifically. The argument is that it's not a meaningful consideration.

That would not require counter-evidence, because the original point is not valid evidence/proof to begin with due to its faultiness as illustrated by that analogy. The relationship between iconic draw and actual goodness is very flimsy and should not be treated as needing to go hand-in-hand.

It's fair to argue that that's slightly off-topic, though, because the thread is technically asking about popularity, not overall greatness-- but overall greatness is generally being discussed as well, not just by DaaaaB's but by everyone.

 

[member 157595]

I have NEVER understood the love for Queen. I find them incredibly overrated.

They were guilty of some filler output, especially on some of their 1980's albums, but they were just otherworldly in front of a live audience. Led Zeppelin's discography may be superior but in terms of putting on a show, Queen absolutely blew them out of the water in my opinion.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Numerous metal bands shifted their sound in a more mainstream direction in attempts to replicate Black Album's success. 90s were basically a dead decade for heavy and thrash metal as a result of this.

But that's not what is being discussed. The discussion is if its iconic or not. Your reasoning for it not even being discussed is because you say it killed thrash metal. What do other bands trying to replicate the Black Album but failing to do so have to do with the actual Black Album being an iconic album?

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Once again, there was no comparison made at all.

You are losing your time. ;-)

I thought the Hitler point was reasonable and salient as well.

I admire your patience, it was clear to me at first glance this was no use.

Is the consensus that the Black Album is a horrible album on the same level as Hitler? Do you have the numbers to back that up?

Ahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahah. Good question. @DaaaaB's do you have the numbers? Let's discuss numbers.

 

[OzzyFan]

But that's not what is being discussed. The discussion is if its iconic or not. Your reasoning for it not even being discussed is because you say it killed thrash metal. What do other bands trying to replicate the Black Album but failing to do so have to do with the actual Black Album being an iconic album?

Hitler aside, I think a discussion of the Black Album's significance and positive/negative impact is worth having and I am not nearly as dismissive on it as most seem to be in this thread.

Did the Black Album hurt thrash metal as a whole? More than likely, but the impact it had on heavy metal itself should not go unnoticed. The Black Album alone increased the popularity of "heavy metal" around the globe in a very noteworthy fashion and definitely (as stated by Aladdyn) turned many bands and created some bands to change their image/sound through influence and mimicking of said album.

While my personal tastes match most people in this thread (The first 4 albums were far and away Metallica's best and the first 2 were legendarily epic for me), the Black Album was a "bad turning point" for lovers of Early Metallica (or more specifically Metallica's original sound), but the Black Album had a notable positive influence on metal/heavy metal as a whole across the globe. You can take away the Metallica name and band members for The Black Album and attach anyone else to it, and it's positive impact on metal will still undoubtedly be duly noted. The Black album is one of the top 20-30 selling albums of all time, and IS THE BEST SELLING METAL ALBUM OF ALL-TIME. It's significance on metal's popularity across the globe today and the number of metal bands in existence today is being incredibly undermined in this thread.

 

[Pilky01]

I genuinely love The Beatles. I kinda assumed they were corny and lame as a kid. They were so ubiquitoous that they seemed uncool. Then in my late teens the "trippy" stuff of theirs became really cool, so I started getting into that, but still not into their "real" music. But it was just a slow process. Now I love literally all of their albums. They all have more than a couple tremendous songs.

Abbey Road, Revolver, White Album are probably my top 3.

 

[Hammettf2b]

I genuinely love The Beatles. I kinda assumed they were corny and lame as a kid. They were so ubiquitoous that they seemed uncool. Then in my late teens the "trippy" stuff of theirs became really cool, so I started getting into that, but still not into their "real" music. But it was just a slow process. Now I love literally all of their albums. They all have more than a couple tremendous songs.

Abbey Road, Revolver, White Album are probably my top 3.

This describes my experience with them as well.

 

[ORRFForever]

I genuinely love The Beatles. I kinda assumed they were corny and lame as a kid. They were so ubiquitoous that they seemed uncool. Then in my late teens the "trippy" stuff of theirs became really cool, so I started getting into that, but still not into their "real" music. But it was just a slow process. Now I love literally all of their albums. They all have more than a couple tremendous songs.

Abbey Road, Revolver, White Album are probably my top 3.

 

[Pilky01]

This describes my experience with them as well.

Yeah I think for lots of people, particularly millenials, thats how it went.

The Beatles felt like a Sesame Street schtick when I was under 13 or 14. Like I say, there were so ubiquitous that they seemed corny and lame, but thats only because they were so influential in their time and that reverberated for decades.

 

[ORRFForever]

Yeah I think for lots of people, particularly millenials, thats how it went.

The Beatles felt like a Sesame Street schtick when I was under 13 or 14. Like I say, there were so ubiquitous that they seemed corny and lame, but thats only because they were so influential in their time and that reverberated for decades.

If you start from their early stuff and listen/go forward, you see how much they grew. Rubber Soul was a HUGE step and a beautifully moving album. And to think a lot of people hated it when it came out.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Numerous metal bands shifted their sound in a more mainstream direction in attempts to replicate Black Album's success. 90s were basically a dead decade for heavy and thrash metal as a result of this.

I'm not a fan of the black album personally but I think thrash metal's popularity was going decline regardless of the Black album. There's been a lot of genres blowup for 5-10 years then start to fade in popularity. I also think there was still some good thrash metal in the 90s. I'm pretty sure Rust in Peace and Countdown to Extinction were both released after the black album. Slayer, Testament and Exodus all put out some good thrash albums in the 90s too.

Overall, I'd say the 90s was a great decade for metal music with groove metal bands(Pantera, Machine Head), sludge metal (Crowbar,Down, Corrosion of Conformity), Industrial metal (NIN, Manson, Zombie), and other bands like Tool, Rage, SOAD, Slipknot, Fear Factory, Deftones, Soulfly, Korn. Older metal bands like Sepultura and Motorhead put out some good music in the 90s too. Not to mention all the European death/black metal bands I discovered after the 90s ended.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Where do you guys who are really big into 60s/70s rock bands rank CCR?

They're my 2nd favorite behind the Stones just based on who I enjoy listening to the most. For the most part I've only listened to the hit songs from bands of that era tho.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

I'm not a fan of the black album personally but I think thrash metal's popularity was going decline regardless of the Black album. There's been a lot of genres blowup for 5-10 years then start to fade in popularity. I also think there was still some good thrash metal in the 90s. I'm pretty sure Rust in Peace and Countdown to Extinction were both released after the black album. Slayer, Testament and Exodus all put out some good thrash albums in the 90s too.

I'm not a big fan of trash metal (apart from Slayer, one of my favorite bands), so I wasn't even aware the black album was regarded as a genre killer. If anything, I think Nirvana's Nevermind killed the 90s genre music at large.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I'm not a big fan of trash metal (apart from Slayer, one of my favorite bands), so I wasn't even aware the black album was regarded as a genre killer. If anything, I think Nirvana's Nevermind killed the 90s genre music at large.

The rise in popularity of first grunge then alternative definitely hurt metal's popularity.

 

[ORRFForever]

The rise in popularity of first grunge then alternative definitely hurt metal's popularity.

Tastes change and every generati0n seems to need their own kind of music. The worst was EDM(?).

 

[67 others]

Whoever #2 is, they are a long, long ways away.

From Business Insider:


Their collection of greatest hits, called "1", was released in 2000 and has sold 33 million units so far and counting, the fourth best selling album in the US since 1991 when Nielsen Soundscan started tracking sales. Overall the Beatles have sold over 65 million albums this century:


According to CBS, The Beatles sold 1.6 BILLION singles.


As of 2020, the Beatles have now sold 186 million albums in the US, 280 million worldwide, over doubling Michael Jackson's total as well as comfortably ahead of Elvis Presley (146.5 in the US) --Business Insider

To quote Andreas from Sepultura

"The rolling stones have 50 years of longevity, still selling out stadiums and could play all their songs live. The beatles couldn't. They broke up after 10 years, which is pretty unimpressive"


I don't particularly care for either band though. Black Sabbath and gentle Giant had more of an influence on the bands I listen to today.

Zepplin and Sabbath people often argue over who really started metal. Its Sabbath. In attitude and sound