The (basically) end of regular season report cards

[Gurglesons]

*ALLVIN

 

[theicebox]

A+ Anne Hathaway appeared out of no-where and appears to have helped us win the division.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

A+ Anne Hathaway appeared out of no-where and appears to have helped us win the division.

And then the playoffs happened.

 

[Tom Hanks]

A+ Anne Hathaway appeared out of no-where and appears to have helped us win the division.

Appearances can be deceptive

 

[ColePens]

You think Marino played up to expectations?



His 5v5 production was really bad. I know he made up for it elsewhere but I struggle to give an A to someone who gets a full season with Sid and doesn't put up better 5v5 numbers.



Lafferty?

1) I think Marino absolutely lived up to expectations of a 2nd year young dman finding his way in the NHL. I think if anyone expected Kris Letang out of Marino, their expectations were insanely too high. To me, he's a young dman learning how to be a top 4 dman. I think he's grooving into it quite well.

I think both Marino and Matheson do a lot of transition work for this team that doesn't show well on tv. Fans don't see it as easily. Codi Ceci actually, and oddly, might be one of the best at it. CONSTANTLY giving outlets to our wingers and pushing space because they are active. It's so valuable to how the Pens want to play hockey. It literally is our motor.

And Pets is the worst at it. That's not a knock on him, but it does hinder transition/puck keeps when its his responsibility. Any time he takes a penalty, is typically when he's trying to join rushes but can't like Matheson/Marino. On the flip side, his floor is a lot less than guys like Matheson/Marino and he's very consistent in his position. But that's what makes a great team. A little bit of everything can really make a great team.

I think people can critique Marino and it's valid, but I question how much hockey a user watches or played because I can look around the league at young dmen and see this on a nightly basis. I also think we are quite blessed with Letang that we expect Letang and he's really a special player. He was never replaceable in any way and we've said that for probably 8 years now when the debate to move on from Letang comes up. You will never replace that. You will just fill it differently.


2) This is an easy one. I will not budge. Rust was the unsung hero of L1 and he's been one of the best Penguins. You can feed any chart/stat you want at me. I won't budge. I think giving Rusty anything but an A is unacceptable. We are on a message board and it is okay to agree to disagree. I'm just saying right now, I will not budge a single inch from this position.


3) What was Laff's expectation prior to the season? #14/15 forward, right? Okay.. he came in and gave us some good games. His performance against Washington is exactly what I want to see out of a player in/out of the lineup. He didn't solidify himself as a regular NHL player, but that wasn't his ask prior to the season. Guys lie Sceviour, Jank, Gaudreau, AA, RZ, etc were all fighting for that spot. GOAT won. So IMO season expectations vs. what we got would be a C+ at the very very least. It's just like Ruh. His expectation is to be a #8 dman and come in and perform when asked. He does it. He gets a C+ because he just constantly does it.


We have to be real with our expectations here. I think you have a great hockey mind. Others here just have unreasonable expectations.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The thing with Marino that surprises me is that people assumed he would stay at his top 2 level this year. Outside of Letang, I don't know a rookie Pens defenseman who didn't have a massive sophomore slump, it's just not a realistic expectation for anyone outside of a future HHOF first ballot blueliner (like Letang is/will be). I think the things to keep in mind with Marino are that a) he had periods of really good play and b) his partner and the team in general struggled mightily during parts of the season. So, there's lots of good stuff to build on there, it's just that the consistency isn't quite there yet-- you can see he has the tools, it's just a matter of putting it all together. Lots of guys don't start putting it together until they're significantly older than Marino (like Matheson's age).

I know some people would argue that it's just surprising that he sunk that low for stretches, and that's a fair criticism, but it's also been a weird offseason and season and the dude hadn't played professional hockey before last year. So, he's in a weird situation that I would hesitate to draw too much from.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I also feel like we need to have a real conversation about grade inflation here.

 

[ColePens]

I also feel like we need to have a real conversation about grade inflation here.

Do share with me your profession again.........

 

[ColePens]

I definitely grade upon the expectation prior to the season. For my entire career here at HF, I've been hit a couple times because I do this. Sid/Geno/Letang/MAF at the time had the highest expectations prior to the season. Living up to that is difficult. That's what is simply amazing that 87, 71, and 58 keep delivering. That's freaking remarkable.

So idk how to be express in words my theory but Sid can get a B+ but a 4th liner can get an A+ and that doesn't mean the 4th liner had a better season. The 4th liner just had a better season based on expectations. For example - AA before injury. He was moving into A+ territory because I didn't even expect him to be a 15th forward and the guy was looking like an NHL regular at times. But that's because his expectation was nil.

I think Gaudreau would be the A+ for me. His expectation at the time of puck drop this season vs. where he is leading into the playoffs is crazy.

 

[TKalltheTime]

Appearances can be deceptive

Still would…

 

[Andy99]

Appearances can be deceptive

I honestly don’t get the appeal of the no-eyebrow look...she looks like a vampire here

 

[Gurglesons]

The thing with Marino that surprises me is that people assumed he would stay at his top 2 level this year. Outside of Letang, I don't know a rookie Pens defenseman who didn't have a massive sophomore slump, it's just not a realistic expectation for anyone outside of a future HHOF first ballot blueliner (like Letang is/will be). I think the things to keep in mind with Marino are that a) he had periods of really good play and b) his partner and the team in general struggled mightily during parts of the season. So, there's lots of good stuff to build on there, it's just that the consistency isn't quite there yet-- you can see he has the tools, it's just a matter of putting it all together. Lots of guys don't start putting it together until they're significantly older than Marino (like Matheson's age).

I know some people would argue that it's just surprising that he sunk that low for stretches, and that's a fair criticism, but it's also been a weird offseason and season and the dude hadn't played professional hockey before last year. So, he's in a weird situation that I would hesitate to draw too much from.

I think Marino was far more of the struggling culprit on his pairings this year then the opposite.

I guess the big question mark I have is how people butcher Pettersson for being consistently out worked in front of the net and in the corners and then turn around and say Marino showed good things when he was by far our worst player in that regards.

I also think the expectations thing is frankly bullshit. He wasn’t expected to do much heading into the season. Carry our second pairing. It’s not like we were asking Marino to be our top D, top PP guy our top PKer. He was just needing to be a solid 3/4 and he’s in general been bad enough to be our #6 some nights. That contract is ugly as f*** if he doesn’t improve from this year and nothing about the positives he’s shown makes me confident about him going into a series against the Isles or Bruins if Matheson is hurt. I think it is pretty telling Pettersson is the one stepping up on that pairing in terms of where Marino’s confidence and game is at right now.

 

[Peat]

I agree some sort of slump was to be expected from Marino. I wasn't expecting it to be so brutal that he was arguably the worst dman in the league for a period. And eyetest, at the start of the season, he was making so many bad decisions. I guess that's part of a guy feeling the need to prove he's worth his big new contract, that he's not some one season wonder, and overthinking it. but it still shocked me a little for a guy who was so ice cool last year.

And yeah, he recovered... some. But I think he was still making too many mistakes. We saw his ability to be a fantastic puck mover return but it wasn't leading to much actual offence. And the fact that he couldn't establish himself as taking second pairing minutes even then disappointed me. And I don't think that's on Pettersson.

I also think if we're talking expectations then Pettersson's puck movement - well, what were we expecting there? He was a fine puck mover his first season but not the next. He settled into a safe defensive role with okay production and meh puck moving last season, which is pretty much what he did this. For me, Pettersson pretty much lived up to expectations there. I think it's actually a bit uncanny just how like last season he was.

But with Marino? I expected problems, but I didn't expect so many. I didn't expect him to be Letang, but I didn't expect him to finish the season as a 3rd pairing dman. Some of that's on Ceci being great, but quite a bit of that's on Marino.


Re Rust - I've no particular argument with anyone giving him an A - just I think there's fair reason to give him less. Me, myself, I honestly can't decide how I'd grade the 1st line.


Finally, on Lafferty... I'm not sure what my expectations were pre-season tbh. But I certainly thought he was in the same group jockeying for NHL time along with Jankowski, Angello, Sceviour, etc.etc. and I think his results were Jankowski bad. Yeah he had some good games but so did Jankowski who opened the season strong, was great on the 5v3 PK vs Boston, had a weird 5 in 4 burst of production before getting HSed... a few good games aren't enough for me. Most of our spare forwards showed they belonged in the NHL and I'm not sure Lafferty did.

 

[Andy99]

I agree some sort of slump was to be expected from Marino. I wasn't expecting it to be so brutal that he was arguably the worst dman in the league for a period. And eyetest, at the start of the season, he was making so many bad decisions. I guess that's part of a guy feeling the need to prove he's worth his big new contract, that he's not some one season wonder, and overthinking it. but it still shocked me a little for a guy who was so ice cool last year.

And yeah, he recovered... some. But I think he was still making too many mistakes. We saw his ability to be a fantastic puck mover return but it wasn't leading to much actual offence. And the fact that he couldn't establish himself as taking second pairing minutes even then disappointed me. And I don't think that's on Pettersson.

I also think if we're talking expectations then Pettersson's puck movement - well, what were we expecting there? He was a fine puck mover his first season but not the next. He settled into a safe defensive role with okay production and meh puck moving last season, which is pretty much what he did this. For me, Pettersson pretty much lived up to expectations there. I think it's actually a bit uncanny just how like last season he was.

But with Marino? I expected problems, but I didn't expect so many. I didn't expect him to be Letang, but I didn't expect him to finish the season as a 3rd pairing dman. Some of that's on Ceci being great, but quite a bit of that's on Marino.


Re Rust - I've no particular argument with anyone giving him an A - just I think there's fair reason to give him less. Me, myself, I honestly can't decide how I'd grade the 1st line.


Finally, on Lafferty... I'm not sure what my expectations were pre-season tbh. But I certainly thought he was in the same group jockeying for NHL time along with Jankowski, Angello, Sceviour, etc.etc. and I think his results were Jankowski bad. Yeah he had some good games but so did Jankowski who opened the season strong, was great on the 5v3 PK vs Boston, had a weird 5 in 4 burst of production before getting HSed... a few good games aren't enough for me. Most of our spare forwards showed they belonged in the NHL and I'm not sure Lafferty did.

a low key reason for Marino’s regression has to come from the change in the defense from last season to this season...a lot more aggressive offensive system now and I don’t think it plays to his current strengths as much as last year did

 

[Peat]

a low key reason for Marino’s regression has to come from the change in the defense from last season to this season...a lot more aggressive offensive system now and I don’t think it plays to his current strengths as much as last year did

Hmm. I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. What change in the system are you seeing?

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree some sort of slump was to be expected from Marino. I wasn't expecting it to be so brutal that he was arguably the worst dman in the league for a period. And eyetest, at the start of the season, he was making so many bad decisions. I guess that's part of a guy feeling the need to prove he's worth his big new contract, that he's not some one season wonder, and overthinking it. but it still shocked me a little for a guy who was so ice cool last year.

And yeah, he recovered... some. But I think he was still making too many mistakes. We saw his ability to be a fantastic puck mover return but it wasn't leading to much actual offence. And the fact that he couldn't establish himself as taking second pairing minutes even then disappointed me. And I don't think that's on Pettersson.

I also think if we're talking expectations then Pettersson's puck movement - well, what were we expecting there? He was a fine puck mover his first season but not the next. He settled into a safe defensive role with okay production and meh puck moving last season, which is pretty much what he did this. For me, Pettersson pretty much lived up to expectations there. I think it's actually a bit uncanny just how like last season he was.

But with Marino? I expected problems, but I didn't expect so many. I didn't expect him to be Letang, but I didn't expect him to finish the season as a 3rd pairing dman. Some of that's on Ceci being great, but quite a bit of that's on Marino.


Re Rust - I've no particular argument with anyone giving him an A - just I think there's fair reason to give him less. Me, myself, I honestly can't decide how I'd grade the 1st line.


Finally, on Lafferty... I'm not sure what my expectations were pre-season tbh. But I certainly thought he was in the same group jockeying for NHL time along with Jankowski, Angello, Sceviour, etc.etc. and I think his results were Jankowski bad. Yeah he had some good games but so did Jankowski who opened the season strong, was great on the 5v3 PK vs Boston, had a weird 5 in 4 burst of production before getting HSed... a few good games aren't enough for me. Most of our spare forwards showed they belonged in the NHL and I'm not sure Lafferty did.

Yep. You can’t say Pettersson was bad this year or really anything but a B or above if you are going off expectations because to start and now he’s stepped up and been a top four LD which I don’t think was ever the expectation for him.

 

[Andy99]

Hmm. I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. What change in the system are you seeing?

They’re bringing the D men up to pinch more often this year and getting involved in the play a la Dallas last season...that’s why we’re one of the highest scoring teams from D men...offensive ability and scoring wasn’t Marino’s strength last year and while he’s solid at it, he’s not anywhere near Adam Fox for example at it....it’s going to take him a little more time

 

[Peat]

They’re bringing the D men up to pinch more often this year and getting involved in the play a la Dallas last season...that’s why we’re one of the highest scoring teams from D men...offensive ability and scoring wasn’t Marino’s strength last year and while he’s solid at it, he’s not anywhere near Adam Fox for example at it....it’s going to take him a little more time

Marino's p/60 last year was .04 lower than Letang's; borderline 1D. It was a strength last year. I mean, pretty much everything was a strength last year for him, but he definitely showed the ability to create offence.

And now his 5v5 points have fallen in half. If he was still productive, but his defence was suffering, fine, I'd buy that. But it didn't. He just got worse at everything. His defence has recovered more than his offence tbf. Does our style mean he's been more exposed? Maybe a little but last year he was very adept at killing odd man rushes and defending zone entries anyway; now, not so much.

Yep. You can’t say Pettersson was bad this year or really anything but a B or above if you are going off expectations because to start and now he’s stepped up and been a top four LD which I don’t think was ever the expectation for him.

My expectation was safe complimentary vanilla 4D. I think he mostly did that, save his role was reduced for a lot of the season, but I think he showed he could do it when it was his turn. I can buy putting him a little below expectations, but I'm not sure I buy having him alone there.

 

[ColePens]

They’re bringing the D men up to pinch more often this year and getting involved in the play a la Dallas last season...that’s why we’re one of the highest scoring teams from D men...offensive ability and scoring wasn’t Marino’s strength last year and while he’s solid at it, he’s not anywhere near Adam Fox for example at it....it’s going to take him a little more time

This 100 percent. Sully has talked about it. Our gap is incredible in the neutral as well. 100 percent this. And you can tell it's schematic.

 

[End of Line]

Having Ceci play a role and not be depended on like he was in Toronto and Ottawa helped insulate him + go under the radar in the best of ways.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Do share with me your profession again.........

Guilty as charged.

But it's interesting to see who among us views "C" as an average grade for a player that met expectations and did nothing more, and people that put that at, say, a B or so. There's no right or wrong way about it-- it's just differing expectations for what the score actually means.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Guilty as charged.

But it's interesting to see who among us views "C" as an average grade for a player that met expectations and did nothing more, and people that put that at, say, a B or so. There's no right or wrong way about it-- it's just differing expectations for what the score actually means.

Yeah it’s weird. I think Lafferty isn’t really cut out for the NHL and he didn’t change my mind. So he met expectations but he’s bad so I’d give him a F.

 

[Shwag33]

JR gets an A for the season. Too many people are attributing the GM change to the team turn around. JR was getting crushed for a lot of his moves that have turned out to be key cogs in the success this year.

This board gets an F as usual for bad takes on JR and sullivan. People apparently think winning every year is possible. After watching bylsma, sullivan gets a much longer leash. No coach is going to make perfect moves every time.

 

[Tom Hanks]