The Avalanche are what the Leafs and Oilers were supposed to become

BB88

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
40,838
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Auston Matthews was always going to get the contract he got (AAV). 1st line Center, the top goal scorer in the league, the value he had on turning Toronto around (to losing in the 1st round ever year, yes). The guy lit the league up the second he came into it. I'd think lots of teams would still sign him to the contract he inked right now if they could.

Marner on the other hand, Leafs and Dubas lost big time. I don't think most teams would even touch Marner at the number he's signed at now.

MacKinnon was pure luck. He went from 50 point player to 100 point player, many had written him off, he signed the contract as a 50 point player when the Avs weren't competitive.

If you are signing you would have had to get him to a 8 year deal.
5 years with that money is and was absolutely insane.

Only McDavid was getting that kind of money and he was on max term and wayyyy better than Matthews.
Dubas just gave Matthews whatever he wanted without negotiations.

Just straight up gave UFA contract/money to RFA player

Adding Matthews/Marner/Nylander/Andersen in 1 offseason might have played a part in their turnaround, not just Matthews

The Leafs have been the favorite in one playoff series in the last five years. They lost their # 2 C in the first period of game one and entered without their # 1 goaltender. They then proceeded to lose their # 1 D in G6.

"choking".

What is different from what happened this year to the Leafs then what happened last year to the Avs against Dallas aside from the Avs being in Round 2?

And Dallas was way more beat up against that Avs squad than the Canadiens were against the Leafs.

How were they not favourites against Columbus?
 
Last edited:

Sanchise90

Registered User
Sep 6, 2019
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I'm gonna preface what I say by stating I give all the credit in the world to Jared Bednar and Joe Sakic. That being said, what Colorado built and developed also came with a lot of luck and timing as well. Those are honestly the main differences between the Avs and the Leafs/Oilers:

1) Nathan MacKinnon going from a 0.75 PPG player before signing his deal to then becoming a top 3 player in the NHL after signing his deal. That allowed the Avs to get him at a massive discount and use that money towards resources elsewhere. To get that quality of play on that price can't be understated. The Oilers and Leafs had to pay their stars like stars because they performed like top 10 players in the NHL prior to getting their deals done. In some capacity, that's affected their ability to fill the surrounding pieces

2) The year the Avs had the worst record in the league and worst in the cap era until Detroit last year, they slipped to 4th . That year, the draft 1 and 2 was basically between Nolan Patrick and Nico Hischier. I remember cause the Stars finished 3rd in the lottery and the media was lamenting not being able to select either. I mean the trajectory changes a lot if the Avs stay at 1...

3) Just the timing of the contracts. Combine MacKinnon's discount with Makar's entry level, Landeskog and Grubauer not hitting FA this year and you're able to fill that with surplus talent relative to other teams. Other teams don't get the luxuries provided by timing there. Remember when the Blackhawks were constantly jettisoning players to get under cap restraints during their cup years? Guys like Byfuglien, Versteeg, Leddy, Boychuk...

I give Sakic a lot of credit for filling the holes in the roster (i.e. acquiring Graves, Toews, Doonskoi), but the Avs becoming what they were aren't an indictment on the Leafs or Oilers. It's not an apples to apples comparison. It just shows an optimal outcome of when good drafting and trading meets luck and timing.
 

SaltNPeca

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Jan 9, 2017
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I think Makar, the Avs D-Core, and their upcoming D-prospects are underrated. Lots of talent there & totally different approach than say Montreal. Edmonton has some good D-prospects, but the Avs are very strong in this position with speedy, high hockey IQ puck movers.

Especially w/ Makar & MacKinnon out it seems like such a cohesive 5-man unit. Dunno how many MacKinnon goals I've seen lately from the left point or these tic-tac-toe (always the same names in the box scores).

The 2018 offseason trade and immediate signing of Grubauer is an example of good asset management.
 

Islay1989

Registered User
Feb 24, 2020
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What's integral to the Avs success is having good two-way forwards across the whole 4 lines, they skate well, they compete at a high degree, they backcheck relentlessly, and always on the puck. Bednar turned Nate from a one-dimensional volume shooter who took poor shots into a driver who backchecks like a madman. Castoffs like Nuke or Calvert are given roles they fit well, Nuke was turned into a defensive specialist, a guy who uses his speed and size to hound defensemen on the forecheck and backchecks like crazy turning him into a top tier defensive winger, Calvert was an emotional leader whose energy set the tone and they try to replace guys like that with others who play a similar game - O'Connor, Ranta ... The most lethargic players on the roster are probably Compher and Kadri and even they aren't soft.

They also don't throw away the puck needlessly, dump and chase is the last resort. You attack the neutral zone with speed, penetrate it and outnumber the defense. What their speed also does is it forces the defensive pair to sit back which allows easier entry, and if you try to defend the blue line they have sets that allow Nate and others to get behind the D for odd-man rushes.

But the most important thing, that they lacked in the past, is having viable puck-moving defensemen on every single pairing. They even have multiple high-end ones per single pairing. And every single one of them is at worst an above-average defender as well when talking about the top 4. With how they are playing now they have Makar, Girard and Toews who are all high-end transition D and while Graves isn't a prototypical puck-mover and people see his size they tend to think of someone who sits back, he's at his best when given a bit of a free roam. He can be frustrating and a bit too confident in which cases Makar or another defensive partner actually stays back while Graves pinches or carries. Then you have Timmins who had struggled at times this season, but started to play better as time went on, as another guy who can move the puck effectively. McDonald is an interesting option for Seattle, because both his analytics and the eye test suggest he is a pretty damn good NHL D, albeit a late bloomer. The only regular with below-average - he is quite poor actually - puck skills is Nemeth, whose role is to eat minutes on PK and play a low event game at ES. If Byram or EJ feature back in you'd get:

Graves - Makar
Girard - Toews
Byram - Timmins/EJ
Nemeth - McDonald

That's an absurd amount of PMDs who are all very good in their own end. Even if EJ doesn't come back from his concussion and Graves is lost in the ED you had all of that plus Barron and Helleson.
 

smokes lets go

Registered User
Oct 18, 2008
4,039
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Im veeeeeery curious to see how he manages the salary cap with regards to landeskog, makar, and grubauer this summer. Sakic and co have done a fantastic job building this team for success, and now that big pay days are going to start to trickle in, the big challenges start. NM still has a few years on his insanely value deal so it wouldnt surprise me to see them put all their chips onto the table before he needs a new contract.
 

GirardSpinorama

Registered User
Aug 20, 2004
21,114
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Im veeeeeery curious to see how he manages the salary cap with regards to landeskog, makar, and grubauer this summer. Sakic and co have done a fantastic job building this team for success, and now that big pay days are going to start to trickle in, the big challenges start. NM still has a few years on his insanely value deal so it wouldnt surprise me to see them put all their chips onto the table before he needs a new contract.

I don't think the NM contract matters that much. We have EJ's contract coming off in the same year. We played the entire season pretty much with that contract as dead space. What matters more is really how long the prime years of the players are and ensuring a decent about of overlap. Makar in his prime at roughly age 25 while Mack is still under 30 is probably when the Avs need to go all in.
 

tucker3434

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Apr 7, 2007
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Im veeeeeery curious to see how he manages the salary cap with regards to landeskog, makar, and grubauer this summer. Sakic and co have done a fantastic job building this team for success, and now that big pay days are going to start to trickle in, the big challenges start. NM still has a few years on his insanely value deal so it wouldnt surprise me to see them put all their chips onto the table before he needs a new contract.

We have a handful of guys that are decent players that make decent money. Kadri, Graves, and Donskoi should all be pretty easy to move if necessary. Compher and EJ would be a bit more challenging but they also expire the same year Mack needs his raise. Both Byram and Newhook could be good-impact ELC’s the next couple years. When their ELC’s expire, things start to get really tricky.

But unless Byram or Newhook make really big leaps before the end of their ELC’s, this is the deepest team we’ll have.
 

falconski

Unregistered User
Jan 21, 2008
11,956
2,016
I'm gonna preface what I say by stating I give all the credit in the world to Jared Bednar and Joe Sakic. That being said, what Colorado built and developed also came with a lot of luck and timing as well. Those are honestly the main differences between the Avs and the Leafs/Oilers:

1) Nathan MacKinnon going from a 0.75 PPG player before signing his deal to then becoming a top 3 player in the NHL after signing his deal. That allowed the Avs to get him at a massive discount and use that money towards resources elsewhere. To get that quality of play on that price can't be understated. The Oilers and Leafs had to pay their stars like stars because they performed like top 10 players in the NHL prior to getting their deals done. In some capacity, that's affected their ability to fill the surrounding pieces

2) The year the Avs had the worst record in the league and worst in the cap era until Detroit last year, they slipped to 4th . That year, the draft 1 and 2 was basically between Nolan Patrick and Nico Hischier. I remember cause the Stars finished 3rd in the lottery and the media was lamenting not being able to select either. I mean the trajectory changes a lot if the Avs stay at 1...

3) Just the timing of the contracts. Combine MacKinnon's discount with Makar's entry level, Landeskog and Grubauer not hitting FA this year and you're able to fill that with surplus talent relative to other teams. Other teams don't get the luxuries provided by timing there. Remember when the Blackhawks were constantly jettisoning players to get under cap restraints during their cup years? Guys like Byfuglien, Versteeg, Leddy, Boychuk...

I give Sakic a lot of credit for filling the holes in the roster (i.e. acquiring Graves, Toews, Doonskoi), but the Avs becoming what they were aren't an indictment on the Leafs or Oilers. It's not an apples to apples comparison. It just shows an optimal outcome of when good drafting and trading meets luck and timing.
In fairness for 2), I believe our scouting department said we had Heiskanen and Makar 1/2 for 2017 (I don't think they said who they had #1, which meant that it was probably Heiskanen)
 

Ararana

Registered User
Sep 22, 2013
17,624
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Two Rivers
MacKinnon --- Makar
Rantanan --- Girard
Landeskog --- Toews
Kadri -- Byram

The Avs are as balanced as they are skilled. Hockey is played on both sides of the ice.

Credit to Sakic for building that balance and not pigeon holing himself into four forwards at any cost. "We can and we will". Thank god the Avs dodge a bullet and Dubas stayed in Toronto.
 

QJL

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
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They lost to another top 3 team in the league. Still a fantastic team with tons of potential to win for a decade.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
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They are still much, much better than the Oilers or the Leafs. Leafs star players can never show up, Oilers star players can't play defense, once the Av's tweak their depth they'll be champs, they're very similar to the early Lightning.
 

gr8haluschak

Registered User
Jul 25, 2004
3,269
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They are still much, much better than the Oilers or the Leafs. Leafs star players can never show up, Oilers star players can't play defense, once the Av's tweak their depth they'll be champs, they're very similar to the early Lightning.

Ha tweak thier line up, man where has the hockey world heard that before. Sounds just like the same comments made by oilers and leafs fans, just a a d man here or a winger there.
 

Sky04

Registered User
Jan 8, 2009
29,031
18,063
Ha tweak thier line up, man where has the hockey world heard that before. Sounds just like the same comments made by oilers and leafs fans, just a a d man here or a winger there.

Adding bottom 6 forwards is far easier than finding #1 dmen and top line wingers but surely you knew that or maybe not.
 

Sempiternal

Registered User
Jul 5, 2014
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Avalanche defense core showed their inexperience the past few games. Still going to be a scary team for years to come though.
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
Jan 14, 2003
27,100
5,734
Toronto
MacKinnon --- Makar
Rantanan --- Girard
Landeskog --- Toews
Kadri -- Byram

The Avs are as balanced as they are skilled. Hockey is played on both sides of the ice.

Credit to Sakic for building that balance and not pigeon holing himself into four forwards at any cost. "We can and we will". Thank god the Avs dodge a bullet and Dubas stayed in Toronto.

yeah thank god
 

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