The Athletic: Flames were worst forchecking team

[InfinityIggy]

I'm mostly done predicting where people will fall into the forward lineup, if it started today I'd still go:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal
Tkachuk-Lindholm-Bennett
Frolik-Backlund-Ryan
Mangiapane-Janko-Czarnik

I believe Lindholm is best suited at C, and that depth down the middle is not something that should be overlooked. I would also like to find a way for Bennett to get a top 6 shot, see what he can bring with Tkachuk on his opposite wing.

I don't hate it, but the big questions for me are that 2nd line. Can Lindholm be a better 2c than Backlund? If no, he shouldn't be in that slot. Can Bennett be a better 2RW (which he looked awful at previously) than Neal AND Lindholm? If not then he shouldn't be in that slot either.

If both of those guys play up to their potential that'd be an amazing lineup. I am pretty skeptical they are a fit for those slots at this point in time though.

 

[The Gnome]

I don't hate it, but the big questions for me are that 2nd line. Can Lindholm be a better 2c than Backlund? If no, he shouldn't be in that slot. Can Bennett be a better 2RW (which he looked awful at previously) than Neal AND Lindholm? If not then he shouldn't be in that slot either.

If both of those guys play up to their potential that'd be an amazing lineup. I am pretty skeptical they are a fit for those slots at this point in time though.

Definitely not sold on it, just saying it would be ideal. Bennett is the 2nd biggest X factor this year after Mike Smith's groin. Lindholm may not be ready to hold down a C spot in the top 6, pushing him to RW somewhere in the top 6. I'm just mocking based on my hopes, not reality...and to be honest, until we see at least some pre-season, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[The Gnome]

I don't hate it, but the big questions for me are that 2nd line. Can Lindholm be a better 2c than Backlund? If no, he shouldn't be in that slot. Can Bennett be a better 2RW (which he looked awful at previously) than Neal AND Lindholm? If not then he shouldn't be in that slot either.

If both of those guys play up to their potential that'd be an amazing lineup. I am pretty skeptical they are a fit for those slots at this point in time though.

Actually, I kind of f***ed up anyway on that 2nd line:

Bennett-Lindholm-Tkachuk

I imagine Tkachuk can transition to his off wing...Bennett needs all the help he can get, no reason to move him to his off-wing yet.

 

[hooknshoot]

Bennett and Jankowski showed some chemistry at times last year, I'd like to see them kept together. Add a veteran presence a la Frolik and I think you have an able third line that can pressure bottom pairing defence effectively.

 

[Lunatik]

Bennett and Jankowski showed some chemistry at times last year, I'd like to see them kept together. Add a veteran presence a la Frolik and I think you have an able third line that can pressure bottom pairing defence effectively.

I have a feeling that if Janko and Bennett are kept together, it will be more of a 3B situation because quite frankly they don't deserve to be ahead of Derek Ryan and Michael Frolik at this point in time. Since Peters likes "pairs", I think our LW & C will be said pairs (Frolik can swap to RW if needed).

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm/Neal
Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm/Neal
Frolik - Ryan - Czarnik/_______
Bennett - Jankowski - Czarnik/_______

But, I am starting to agree with Volica in that Janko and Bennett will be broken up, with one of them moving to the 4th line. I think it is more likely we see one of the following as the bottom 6....

Bennett - Ryan - Frolik
_______ - Jankowski - Czarnik

Frolik - Jankowski - Ryan
Bennett - Czarnik - _______

Honestly, I think either of these combos could work and we will probably see both at some point in time.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I have a feeling that if Janko and Bennett are kept together, it will be more of a 3B situation because quite frankly they don't deserve to be ahead of Derek Ryan and Michael Frolik at this point in time.

Why not? Shouldn't the organization have a bit more priority on developing two former first round picks and putting them in positions to succeed over a couple of utility veterans? I agree that I think we see a 3A - 3B situation but I'd have either Frolik or Ryan with Bennett and Janko. Small preference to Ryan, think they could do well with a bit more of a playmaker who can take faceoffs. Frolik or Czarnik might also be a good fit.

Bennett and Jankowski had some really nice stretches last year. They also had some bad ones. Most of the bad ones were with them being chained to Hathaway from what I remember. That could be a really effective line if they were to be given someone top 9 quality.

 

[Lunatik]

Why not? Shouldn't the organization have a bit more priority on developing two former first round picks and putting them in positions to succeed over a couple of utility veterans? I agree that I think we see a 3A - 3B situation but I'd have either Frolik or Ryan with Bennett and Janko. Small preference to Ryan, think they could do well with a bit more of a playmaker who can take faceoffs. Frolik or Czarnik might also be a good fit.

Bennett and Jankowski had some really nice stretches last year. They also had some bad ones. Most of the bad ones were with them being chained to Hathaway from what I remember. That could be a really effective line if they were to be given someone top 9 quality.

The priority is winning. Frolik and Ryan are simply better players at this point in time and will give us a better chance to win unless Bennett and Janko step up

 

[Bounces R Way]

The priority is winning. Frolik and Ryan are simply better players at this point in time and will give us a better chance to win unless Bennett and Janko step up

So give em that chance. Give them a reliable and consistent vet to help with the aspects of the game they struggle with. Skilled young players need ice time to get better. I think you're limiting the potential and stalling the development of these two players if you cut their ice time even by a couple minutes. If Frolik and Ryan are so much better they should be able to produce in that kind of depth role anyways.

 

[Anglesmith]

The priority is winning. Frolik and Ryan are simply better players at this point in time and will give us a better chance to win unless Bennett and Janko step up

I think you need to wait until training camp to really make that assessment. We've never seen Ryan with this group, and Frolik last year was a worse player than any of the other three, albeit in a season marred by an injury.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I think you need to wait until training camp to really make that assessment. We've never seen Ryan with this group, and Frolik last year was a worse player than any of the other three, albeit in a season marred by an injury.

A worse player than Bennett and Janko? How do you figure? Especially with the hand injury?

He had nearly the same offensive output despite it being his worst season by far, and playing significantly harder minutes than the both of them playing the shutdown role.

 

[Anglesmith]

A worse player than Bennett and Janko? How do you figure? Especially with the hand injury?

He had nearly the same offensive output despite it being his worst season by far, and playing significantly harder minutes than the both of them playing the shutdown role.

Just visually, he was a draining force on his line, made a lot of mistakes and turned the puck over a lot in the neutral zone. He also had much more talent alongside him than the other two did, I would say. So QoT/QoC is a bit of a wash IMO.

I'm a big fan of Frolik, loved his signing, and have loved what he's brought to the team since that signing. But I was extremely disappointed by his play last year. Just an abberation for Frolik, I think, but you never know. He has plenty to prove coming into camp this year.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Just visually, he was a draining force on his line, made a lot of mistakes and turned the puck over a lot in the neutral zone. He also had much more talent alongside him than the other two did, I would say. So QoT/QoC is a bit of a wash IMO.

I'm a big fan of Frolik, loved his signing, and have loved what he's brought to the team since that signing. But I was extremely disappointed by his play last year. Just an abberation for Frolik, I think, but you never know. He has plenty to prove coming into camp this year.

Compared to a whole third line that didn't produce at all?

Frolik didn't have a great season, he won't deny that, I won't deny that. But the third line was trash almost the entire year, outside of a brief period in the fall/early winter and when Hathaway was first called up. Or in Jankowski's case, the literal meaningless last game of the season.

Given Frolik's contribution to two way play and the PK, I'd argue heavily that he brought more.

 

[Lunatik]

So give em that chance. Give them a reliable and consistent vet to help with the aspects of the game they struggle with. Skilled young players need ice time to get better. I think you're limiting the potential and stalling the development of these two players if you cut their ice time even by a couple minutes. If Frolik and Ryan are so much better they should be able to produce in that kind of depth role anyways.

Why can't they earn it? Why should a better player be buried for someone not as good?

Also, you agreed it'd be more of a 3a/3b situation, so they'd have plenty of opportunity to earn it.

Also, Peters is a notorious line juggler.

That said, splitting them up and having one with Ryan and the other with Frolik could make sense both now and long term.

I think you need to wait until training camp to really make that assessment. We've never seen Ryan with this group, and Frolik last year was a worse player than any of the other three, albeit in a season marred by an injury.

Frolik was easily better than Bennett and Janko both offensively and defensively

 

[Anglesmith]

Compared to a whole third line that didn't produce at all?

Frolik didn't have a great season, he won't deny that, I won't deny that. But the third line was trash almost the entire year, outside of a brief period in the fall/early winter and when Hathaway was first called up. Or in Jankowski's case, the literal meaningless last game of the season.

Given Frolik's contribution to two way play and the PK, I'd argue heavily that he brought more.

I think you're confusing Frolik's reputation and what he normally brings with what last year was. Frolik's two-way play was disappointing last year, so it doesn't really help an argument. He looked just as lost as the other two at times last year, but I think a lot of that had to do with injury.

I'm not praising Bennett and Janko beyond what they earned. I just think Frolik was that bad and only avoided being further exposed because he plays with two very talented linemates. I think a lot of Backlund's sudden rise in penalties and sudden drop in +/- had to do with Frolik not being himself.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I think you're confusing Frolik's reputation and what he normally brings with what last year was. Frolik's two-way play was disappointing last year, so it doesn't really help an argument. He looked just as lost as the other two at times last year, but I think a lot of that had to do with injury.

I'm not praising Bennett and Janko beyond what they earned. I just think Frolik was that bad and only avoided being further exposed because he plays with two very talented linemates. I think a lot of Backlund's sudden rise in penalties and sudden drop in +/- had to do with Frolik not being himself.

Agree to disagree then. While Frolik's two way play wasn't it's norm, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you suggest.

 

[Anglesmith]

Agree to disagree then. While Frolik's two way play wasn't it's norm, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you suggest.

I was pretty exasperated with him by the end of the season.

 

[Lunatik]

I agree with FF and as you know, I much prefer to argue with him

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I was pretty exasperated with him by the end of the season.

I think I lost my patience with the amount of posts and time he was just missing the net with his shots by mid season. But I don't think there were many players post Smith's injury I was particularly happy with on the team in general.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I mean his face was broken. I am totally willing to let that season be a write off for Frolik and see if he can back to his usual self.

 

[SKRusty]

The priority is winning. Frolik and Ryan are simply better players at this point in time and will give us a better chance to win unless Bennett and Janko step up

Ryan played last season with a very weak line-up. At best Ryan is Stajan from 3 years ago. Janko is better all round than either Stajan or Ryan. People got to quit looking through rose tinted glasses when looking at other players brought in from other teams and look at the real situation the player was in before coming to Calgary. Ryan will be a great 4th line energy person.

Frolik while snake-bitten more than his average shooting percentage will never be a goal scorer. Bennett, Backlund, Frolik, Lazar for whatever reason can't finish. All three will likely fall down the depth charts this year. Lazar's only redeeming quality is his PK abilities.

Player	Career Shooting Percentage
James Neal	12.1%​
Sean Monahan	14.9%​
Johnny Gaudreau	12.2%​
Mark Jankowski	14.4%​
Elias Lindholm	8.9%​
Matthew Tkachuk	11.2%​
Mikael Backlund	8.9%​
Micheal Frolik	7.8%​
Curtis Lazar	5.7%​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Backlund and Frolik are not prolific set-up guys and with the addition of Lindholm and Neal the reliance on their defensive game will be less relied on and their ice time will slide in favour of more dangerous lines. Calgary will not be in the bottom third in forchecking because their offensive will be way more potent. Realistically Calgary should be rolling 3 dangerous lines.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Why can't they earn it? Why should a better player be buried for someone not as good?

Because Derek Ryan and Micheal Frolik are known quantities. Their success is not vital to the long term health of this franchise. They are done developing and should be happy to play wherever they can be useful. Getting 45 points out of Sam Bennett is inherently more valuable than getting 45 points out of Frolik. This is a crucial year for Bennett especially, that he shows he can be a capable producer is paramount for this hockey team. Why handicap him to prefer a vet you'd probably get similar production from wherever they'd play? It's about the big picture.

That said, splitting them up and having one with Ryan and the other with Frolik could make sense both now and long term.

Could be, think we can agree either is an upgrade on Hathaway and should help the youth with consistency. Probably not arguing over anything all that tangible anyways as I suspect everyone in the bottom 6 will be getting similar ice time anyways.

 

[Lunatik]

Because Derek Ryan and Micheal Frolik are known quantities. Their success is not vital to the long term health of this franchise. They are done developing and should be happy to play wherever they can be useful. Getting 45 points out of Sam Bennett is inherently more valuable than getting 45 points out of Frolik. This is a crucial year for Bennett especially, that he shows he can be a capable producer is paramount for this hockey team. Why handicap him to prefer a vet you'd probably get similar production from wherever they'd play? It's about the big picture.



Could be, think we can agree either is an upgrade on Hathaway and should help the youth with consistency. Probably not arguing over anything all that tangible anyways as I suspect everyone in the bottom 6 will be getting similar ice time anyways.

I don't think saying, you outplay player "x" and you get more ice-time is handicapping. But the bolded is probably quite accurate

I do however like the lines I suggested in the line-up thread, where I have Bennett with Ryan and Czarnik (a more offensive line, with a couple passers and a shooter, where tehy can gain extra time on the 2nd PP unit) and Jankowski with Frolik and one of Dube or Klimchuk (more of a two-way line, no real snipers or playmakers, just 3 guys that can shoot as well as move the puck, where they gain extra ice-time by being penalty killers as well)

 

[SKRusty]

I do however like the lines I suggested in the line-up thread, where I have Bennett with Ryan and Czarnik (a more offensive line, with a couple passers and a shooter, where tehy can gain extra time on the 2nd PP unit) and Jankowski with Frolik and one of Dube or Klimchuk (more of a two-way line, no real snipers or playmakers, just 3 guys that can shoot as well as move the puck, where they gain extra ice-time by being penalty killers as well)

According to the stats Bennett has no business in the top 6. Czarnik like Johnny in his rookie year will likely be slotted in the bottom 6 to start off --with maybe some PP time.

Jankowski, Backlund, and Lindholm will be in the discussion for the second line center. The only finisher in that group is Jankowski. So my guess is he will earn his time with Lindholm and I am hoping Chucky.

That would leave Bennett with Backs and either Frolik or Czarnik. The chemistry Bennett had with Backlund was the best success Sam has had in the NHL so with a little luck he can start gaining some confidence.

Ryan is going to be the fourth line center. Despite how many here yammer on, he is a depth center with good energy. Nothing more. Before anybody says oh he is not paid like a fourth liner remember Stajan was earning the exact same $3.125M a season.

Ryan will fill in well for injuries and will definitely get some major PK time. His role was decided before he signed.

 

[super6646]

According to the stats Bennett has no business in the top 6. Czarnik like Johnny in his rookie year will likely be slotted in the bottom 6 to start off --with maybe some PP time.

Jankowski, Backlund, and Lindholm will be in the discussion for the second line center. The only finisher in that group is Jankowski. So my guess is he will earn his time with Lindholm and I am hoping Chucky.

That would leave Bennett with Backs and either Frolik or Czarnik. The chemistry Bennett had with Backlund was the best success Sam has had in the NHL so with a little luck he can start gaining some confidence.

Ryan is going to be the fourth line center. Despite how many here yammer on, he is a depth center with good energy. Nothing more. Before anybody says oh he is not paid like a fourth liner remember Stajan was earning the exact same $3.125M a season.

Ryan will fill in well for injuries and will definitely get some major PK time. His role was decided before he signed.

No, just no. Jank could barely handle being a #3 centre at times, so why would he be made the #2 now?

Also, Ryan in his own words is a middle sixer, and I think it's more likely he plays second line minutes over fourth line minutes (Ryan is a favourite of peters).

Finally, lindholm likely plays top line minutes unless the chemistry between him and Gaudreau and Monahan is terrible.

 

[SKRusty]

No, just no. Jank could barely handle being a #3 centre at times, so why would he be made the #2 now?

Also, Ryan in his own words is a middle sixer, and I think it's more likely he plays second line minutes over fourth line minutes (Ryan is a favourite of peters).

Finally, lindholm likely plays top line minutes unless the chemistry between him and Gaudreau and Monahan is terrible.

Jankowski had no real talent on his line and put up respectable numbers and to clarify I said it will be between Janko, Backs and Elias.

Ryan played on a team short on centers and even with all the TOI with he only put up 38 points playing much of it with Aho and Teravainen or Skinner and Stempniak. The question is with all that talent how did he not do better. He had plenty of PP time. Ryan will be a 4th liner used more than Stajan and will be able to fill in higher up if injuries happen but he is not as talented as others in the Calgary line-up.

Ryan maybe a favorite of Peters but that is more because Peters can expect a complete game out of Ryan no matter where he is in the line-up. Ryan's view of where he falls into the line-up is his hope and if Neal wouldn't have signed there was a real possibility of him playing on the right with the second unit whatever it is. With Neal in Calgary all of that changed.

Jankowski was given only one opportunity and he unlike Bennett or even Backlund he showed he has it in spades. Mark got held back because of a coach that insisted on sticking with vets like Brouwer, Stajan, and to an extent Backlund when he was struggling.

Contrary to what many believe Janko propped up Sam ... not the other way around. The most common other line-mates were Hathaway and Brouwer. Talk about boat anchors. Jagr showed great promise on the line but could not get healthy and that was a real shame. Of Jagr's 7 points Mark was in on 3 of them. It was no accident that this was also Sam's most productive time of the season as Jagr spent great amounts of TOI with Janko and Sam. It is amazing what a little talent does. Sam was actually learning some things. If he would have had a season with Jagr his game would have been much better for it. 2 weeks later and Sam disappeared.