The Armchair Coaching Thread [MOD WARNING in OP]

Tiranis

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
23,097
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Toronto, ON
Sure and how did blocking shots help them? One injured player.

Who wasn't blocking a shot. Are you now expecting the Sedins to flee shooting lanes to avoid the same fate as Clowe?

You're not even trying to debate in good faith anymore.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
Clowe also wasn't injured. Just a stinger. Out there skating around again a couple shifts later.

But let's ignore that because it doesn't fit the current narrative.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
Sure and how did blocking shots help them? One injured player.

Or not.

Perhaps it's also important to note that there's a distinction between being willing and being forced to block shots. Every team in this league is willing. Not all are forced to, however.
 

Betamax*

Guest
Who wasn't blocking a shot. Are you now expecting the Sedins to flee shooting lanes to avoid the same fate as Clowe?

You're not even trying to debate in good faith anymore.

No ... but my expectations are for the Coach to mitigate injury risk to their top offensive stars who haven't historically been utilized on the Penalty Kill.

Would you not agree that blocking shot is a skill that is cultivated over time and via real world in-game playing experience?

In other words, don't go over board with putting them in the PK would be my expectations from the Coach. I would in most cases, prefer for them to be given the first shift after the end of the PK (unless the other PKers are struggling or it's near the end of the game and the team is in the PK and there's a couple of minutes remaining and they need a goal)

I would rather utilize their offensive talents versus their defensive acumen ... tactics such as putting them with "offensive zone starts" on ES or PP versus "defensive zone starts" that you have when you're on the PK instead.


Clowe also wasn't injured. Just a stinger. Out there skating around again a couple shifts later.

But let's ignore that because it doesn't fit the current narrative.

Clowe was "sufficiently injured" on the play and was incapacitated to be of any use in the play and was a liability on the ice for the remainder of his shift. It gave the Canucks an advantage which they capitalized and scored the GTG. That certainly fits the narrative.

Even if the "injury" doesn't knock him out of the game, it's still an injury if it limited the player's ability to perform on the ice as Clowe was seen struggle-ling to get to the bench.
 
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Jack Tripper

Vey Falls Down
Dec 15, 2009
7,250
64
Perth, WA
injuries from shot blocking, like most other forms of injuries, are a crapshoot...the rangers with their shot-blocking identity of the past few years had no injury crisis as a result, and i think alot of these identities are media narratives

you could argue that vigneault's instructions for the d-men to hold the puck as long as possible resulted in much more attrition than the more generic advice from tortorella to block shots in every situation

there isn't a coach in the league that won't encourage their players to block shots on the penalty kill, and i've always wondered why teams don't play top players more on the penalty kill considering how critical those situations are during a game
 

dave babych returns

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
4,977
1
I would rather utilize their offensive talents versus their defensive acumen ... tactics such as putting them with "offensive zone starts" on ES or PP versus "defensive zone starts" that you have when you're on the PK instead.

Why? It's clearly not directly related to their actual offensive output.. to provide a specific example, from 2011-12 to 2012-13 the Sedins offensive zone starts were reduced by nearly one fifth (specifically 18%) but both the rate at which the team scored while they were on the ice and their own point production rates only dropped by about 5%.

So what compelling reason is there, given you can't demonstrate that playing a defensive role makes a player more likely to get injured or even that it will directly impact the team's offensive production (especially in this case where it appears the Sedins will get more minutes than before, ie. added defensive minutes without subtracted offensive assignments), and that just about the only thing we can demonstrate is that the Sedins have requested this assignment and had done so in the past as well?

Do you know better than the Sedins what they should be doing on the ice?

Clowe was "sufficiently injured" on the play and was incapacitated to be of any use in the play and was a liability on the ice for the remainder of his shift. It gave the Canucks an advantage which they capitalized and scored the GTG. That certainly fits the narrative.

Even if the "injury" doesn't knock him out of the game, it's still an injury if it limited the player's ability to perform on the ice as Clowe was seen struggle-ling to get to the bench.

Yeah but it is an "injury" that was not incurred while attempting to block a shot so any point you are trying to draw with regards to shot blocking as a defensive tactic is moot.
 

Proto

Registered User
Jan 30, 2010
11,523
1
Malhotra's career went off the rails trying to block a pass in the neutral zone. Sedins should no longer block passes with their sticks imo.

If the Sedins were being forced to dive all over the ice needlessly, this would be a discussion worth having. I haven't seen much in terms of the Canucks selling out/getting out of position to block point shots. I'm thankful for that, as I don't see much utility in that at 5 v 5. I have seen the team get up on the wing more to try and block forward shots, and that's something I am a fan of.

I just don't see the point of arguing about this endlessly because of one quote Tortorella gave. It seems deeply silly.
 

Proto

Registered User
Jan 30, 2010
11,523
1
Also, given the fact that the Canucks blocked more defenseman shots than 90% of the league last season and far less forward shots than any other team in the NHL (seriously, less than anyone), I think it would be very difficult for Tortorella to do much harm in this regard. If he encourages better gap control/collapsing to the net front to block forward shots, that's a good thing.

It's the only thing I've seen that indicates any sort of team to team shot quality variance (albeit a small one), and Tortorella's Rangers mastered it.
 

Evidence

Registered User
Jul 3, 2013
126
0
Vancouver
The Sedin's quote on killing penalty's "Canucks captain Henrik Sedin, who was on hand for the presser, said he embraces the new role.

“It’s something we’ve asked for all along,†said Sedin. “We did it with Crow (Crawford) for a year and really enjoyed it, and we did it at the world championships back in Sweden (in May).

“To be a great player in this league you have to be put in those spots. For us, we were counted on to score goals, and if we didn’t score goals we were terrible. When we went back to Sweden for the world championships, we played in all situations. I think you grow as players when you do that.

“I think we can help this team more than what we do. We might not score 100 points, but if we can put up 80 to 90 points and play PK and help defensively, we’re going to be better players, and I think the team is going to be bettr.â€
 

Betamax*

Guest
Why? It's clearly not directly related to their actual offensive output.. to provide a specific example, from 2011-12 to 2012-13 the Sedins offensive zone starts were reduced by nearly one fifth (specifically 18%) but both the rate at which the team scored while they were on the ice and their own point production rates only dropped by about 5%.

If you could provide the relevant links for reference, I'd appreicate it.

So what compelling reason is there, given you can't demonstrate that playing a defensive role makes a player more likely to get injured or even that it will directly impact the team's offensive production (especially in this case where it appears the Sedins will get more minutes than before, ie. added defensive minutes without subtracted offensive assignments), and that just about the only thing we can demonstrate is that the Sedins have requested this assignment and had done so in the past as well?

Let's see in a compressed schedule with multiple back-to-back games, being a west coast team with just about the toughest travel schedule, they have a "sleep doctor", I'd like to know if they keep track of the total KMs each players skate per game. In other words, it just seems logical to me that they would have to pace themselves the more ice time they receive, especially if it's for stressful defensive purposes i.e. the PK with a lot of starts and stops.

Do you know better than the Sedins what they should be doing on the ice?

Didn't Bobby Lu pretty much every starting goalie wanted/wants to play every game? Does that mean he knows best?


Yeah but it is an "injury" that was not incurred while attempting to block a shot so any point you are trying to draw with regards to shot blocking as a defensive tactic is moot.

It occurred in the defensive zone, therefore, if you put the Sedins more in a defensive role where they are facing shots and they are actively encouraged to be in the shooting lanes, they are putting themselves at a higher risk of getting hit by the puck whether it be via "active" shot blocking or allegedly in a "passive" manner re: Clowe.

I think getting hit by the puck @ 90-100mph, is blunt force trauma. That generally leads to some sort of "injury" ... even if they don't miss a shift or games ... it could affect their performances for the rest of the game and for subsequent games.
 

Tiranis

Registered User
Jun 10, 2009
23,097
28
Toronto, ON
If you could provide the relevant links for reference, I'd appreicate it.

It's amazing how you want everybody to back up their opinions but to support your own you throw out a few individual cases like Gregory Campbell and Ryane Clowe.

Before this conversation progresses any further, I think the burden should be on you to provide something tangible that disputes the work done by Cam Charron on the ties between shot blocking and injuries. If I'm being honest, I would also like you to factor into it the study done by mc79hockey on the distribution of shot blocking and the effects on shot attempts taken against.

And that "something" better not be another anecdote about a player who got injured blocking a shot. I expect you to do solid research.
 

RobertKron

Registered User
Sep 1, 2007
15,410
8,493
No ... but my expectations are for the Coach to mitigate injury risk to their top offensive stars who haven't historically been utilized on the Penalty Kill.

Would you not agree that blocking shot is a skill that is cultivated over time and via real world in-game playing experience?

In other words, don't go over board with putting them in the PK would be my expectations from the Coach. I would in most cases, prefer for them to be given the first shift after the end of the PK (unless the other PKers are struggling or it's near the end of the game and the team is in the PK and there's a couple of minutes remaining and they need a goal)

I would rather utilize their offensive talents versus their defensive acumen ... tactics such as putting them with "offensive zone starts" on ES or PP versus "defensive zone starts" that you have when you're on the PK instead.




Clowe was "sufficiently injured" on the play and was incapacitated to be of any use in the play and was a liability on the ice for the remainder of his shift. It gave the Canucks an advantage which they capitalized and scored the GTG. That certainly fits the narrative.

Even if the "injury" doesn't knock him out of the game, it's still an injury if it limited the player's ability to perform on the ice as Clowe was seen struggle-ling to get to the bench.

The Sedins were the second PK unit the year before AV showed up.
 
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SpecialK139

Bo Hor-fat
Aug 8, 2012
210
3
Burnaby
CA is often a crapshoot with their opinion pieces, but I find their interest in statistics to be fun and informative. I could care less about the shot blocking injury argument because I have my own opinion and don't feel like arguing about it, but here is data taken from the last few seasons regarding man games lost and total cap hit lost to injury for the entire league

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/10/8/a-point-about-tortorella-and-shot-blocking
 

carolinacanuck

Registered User
Apr 5, 2007
2,549
92
The Carolinas
CA is often a crapshoot with their opinion pieces, but I find their interest in statistics to be fun and informative. I could care less about the shot blocking injury argument because I have my own opinion and don't feel like arguing about it, but here is data taken from the last few seasons regarding man games lost and total cap hit lost to injury for the entire league

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/10/8/a-point-about-tortorella-and-shot-blocking

the only for sure thing i garnered from that article is that poster betamax is without a doubt, blake price

:laugh:
 

ddawg1950

Registered User
Jul 2, 2010
11,269
569
Pender Island, BC Palm Desert, CA
It's amazing how you want everybody to back up their opinions but to support your own you throw out a few individual cases like Gregory Campbell and Ryane Clowe.

Before this conversation progresses any further, I think the burden should be on you to provide something tangible that disputes the work done by Cam Charron on the ties between shot blocking and injuries. If I'm being honest, I would also like you to factor into it the study done by mc79hockey on the distribution of shot blocking and the effects on shot attempts taken against.

And that "something" better not be another anecdote about a player who got injured blocking a shot. I expect you to do solid research.

Well, that ended that discussion.

Demanding facts will do that.
 

BeardyCanuck03

@BeardyCanuck03
Jun 19, 2006
10,823
410
twitter.com
CA is often a crapshoot with their opinion pieces, but I find their interest in statistics to be fun and informative. I could care less about the shot blocking injury argument because I have my own opinion and don't feel like arguing about it, but here is data taken from the last few seasons regarding man games lost and total cap hit lost to injury for the entire league

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/10/8/a-point-about-tortorella-and-shot-blocking

I posted this in the old thread before it got shutdown.
 

dave babych returns

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
4,977
1
If you could provide the relevant links for reference, I'd appreicate it.

http://www.behindthenet.ca

Enjoy.

Let's see in a compressed schedule with multiple back-to-back games, being a west coast team with just about the toughest travel schedule, they have a "sleep doctor", I'd like to know if they keep track of the total KMs each players skate per game. In other words, it just seems logical to me that they would have to pace themselves the more ice time they receive, especially if it's for stressful defensive purposes i.e. the PK with a lot of starts and stops.

So you are working backwards from your assumptions? Interesting to hear you come out and state that outright..

As for the Sedins pacing themselves, they are (with Mike Santorelli being a possible exception) our best conditioned athletes. They have historically not been in the upper echelon for TOI/G (for Henrik, 2012-13: 42nd out of forwards, 2011-12 59th, 2010-11 54th, etc.. source: http://www.nhl.com/) furthermore the vast majority of the players with more ice time are playing a PK role for their team.

Many of the players ahead of them in ice time over the years have been guys like Corey Perry, Patrick Marleau, Joe Pavelski, Jarome Iginla, Loui Eriksson, Mike Ribeiro, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Ryan, Dustin Brown.. none of them strangers to west coast travel demands.

Didn't Bobby Lu pretty much every starting goalie wanted/wants to play every game? Does that mean he knows best?

No, it doesn't. Of course those aren't even remotely similar to players wanting to play roles commensurate to their ability. The Sedins want what other first liners get (the list of exceptions is real small, maybe 10 guys? Tavares, Ovechkin, Kane... ?) which is the chance to make an impact in all situations.

It occurred in the defensive zone, therefore, if you put the Sedins more in a defensive role where they are facing shots and they are actively encouraged to be in the shooting lanes, they are putting themselves at a higher risk of getting hit by the puck whether it be via "active" shot blocking or allegedly in a "passive" manner re: Clowe.

Well to use the same sophistry you just used to equate first liners wanting to take a couple of shifts on the PK every game to a goaltender wanting 82 starts every year, I guess we should just ban them from the defensive zone.

I think getting hit by the puck @ 90-100mph, is blunt force trauma. That generally leads to some sort of "injury" ... even if they don't miss a shift or games ... it could affect their performances for the rest of the game and for subsequent games.

Yeah and it's unavoidable. Whether they play the kind of role they did over the last couple of years (like they played when Daniel broke his foot getting hit by a shot) or they play a role like Tortorella is asking them to, like they are asking to play, like virtually all other top tier players play in this league.

But anyway as Tiranis stated, it's time for you to stop dealing in anecdotes and youtube clips and start dealing in actual numbers and figures that represent real trends in the league relating to shot blocking and injuries.

Until you do that your argument - no matter how insistently you make it - is pretty well based on your assumptions and a few cherry picked examples.
 

Betamax*

Guest
The Sedins were the second PK unit the year before AV showed up.

Uh ... that was like eight years ago and for one year. I mean come on!

Furthermore they were still not the the number one offensive option on that team given that they were playing behind Bertuzzi, Naslund and Morrison in Crow's final year with the Canucks. They were second liners. In this current line-up they are the undisputed first line on the team. Even Crow didn't utilize their two top offensive players Bert and Nazzy on the PK under his watch so he shared a similar philosophy with Coach AV that the two TOP offensive players concentrate on producing offense.

re: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....imeOnIce&status=A&team=VAN&viewName=timeOnIce

They also had a middling PK that year, tied for 17th overall with Columbus. Now how much did the Sedins' contribute to that is up to debate.

re: http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/team/_/stat/special-teams/sort/penaltyKillPct/year/2006

Look, the Canucks' PK under Coach AV ... during his last three seasons ranked in the TOP 10 in all years and was tied for 2nd most effective during the almost epic 2011 Stanley Cup Finals run.
 

Betamax*

Guest
Before this conversation progresses any further, I think the burden should be on you to provide something tangible that disputes the work done by Cam Charron on the ties between shot blocking and injuries. If I'm being honest, I would also like you to factor into it the study done by mc79hockey on the distribution of shot blocking and the effects on shot attempts taken against.

And that "something" better not be another anecdote about a player who got injured blocking a shot. I expect you to do solid research.

and

But anyway as Tiranis stated, it's time for you to stop dealing in anecdotes and youtube clips and start dealing in actual numbers and figures that represent real trends in the league relating to shot blocking and injuries.

Until you do that your argument - no matter how insistently you make it - is pretty well based on your assumptions and a few cherry picked examples.

I assure both of you, I will make no further statement on "shot blocking" in this thread until I provide a more thorough opinions on the articles mentioned by Tiranis.

But if we are talking about "expectations", I think it is only fair that both you and DBR after reading my response, will respond in kind and be clear on whether you agree and if you disagree with the points I will make and why if you do disagree.

Anyway, back to the topic on hand, I believe the concerns expressed by Tiranis and dave babych returns and others here will be resolved without any "virtual" violence and civilly. :)
 
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Betamax*

Guest
I would rather utilize their offensive talents versus their defensive acumen ... tactics such as putting them with "offensive zone starts" on ES or PP versus "defensive zone starts" that you have when you're on the PK instead.

Why? It's clearly not directly related to their actual offensive output.. to provide a specific example, from 2011-12 to 2012-13 the Sedins offensive zone starts were reduced by nearly one fifth (specifically 18%) but both the rate at which the team scored while they were on the ice and their own point production rates only dropped by about 5%.

What it appears to me is that there are many other variables that affect "actual offensive output" for the positive or negative. Now trying to ascertain what the specific factors are in the years you cited is another matter.

In that 2011/12 year, I think the Sedins' decrease in "offensive zone" starts was due to the infamous admission by GMMG that they were trying to "build Hodgson" into an NHL scorer:

Several articles by the non-mainstream media i.e. blog community focused on it, including:

The Canucks gave Cody Hodgson two makeovers this year
by Harrison Mooney, on April 24, 2012

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/04/24/the-canucks-gave-cody-hodgson-two-makeovers-this-year/

Excerpt:

You may recall Hodgson’s monster January, a streak during which he put up 6 goals and 4 assists, picked up an “NHL Rookie of the Month” Award, briefly waded into the Calder trophy discussion, and won the hearts of nearly the entire Vancouver fanbase in the process. It was his coming-out party, the month Canuck nation decided that, not only was this Hodgson kid was going to work out after all, but he was going to be an absolute stud.

You may also recall that Thomas Drance took a very close look at Hodgson’s numbers and determined that they were inflated based on some curious changes to his usage. Quietly, his icetime spiked by 2 minutes and his offensive zone start percentage went from 33% in December to 83% in January — a higher rate than even the Sedins, the league leaders in offensive zone deployment.

As it turns out, this deployment wasn’t just done to capitalize on Hodgson’s offensive abilities and get him away from his defensive weaknesses. It done to make him look attractive to potential buyers, the hockey equivalent of staging a home. Gillis again:

We built him into something we could move. We put Cody on the ice in every offensive situation we could, I don’t think he took more than 5 or 6 defensive zone faceoffs. That was by design. I don’t regret that move and I’d do it again.

Other commentators, including my undisputed favourite "Stats Guy" in non-mainstream media of all-time, the one and only Cam Charron, who also wrote an article on GMMG comments and in his article tried to isolate the time period, where the Canucks began "sheltering" Hodgson's minutes:

http://canucksarmy.com/2012/4/25/can-we-pinpoint-when-the-canucks-started-sheltering-cody-hodgson

I suppose for that year and from the numbers provided by Mr. Charron, one can maybe track the Sedins' offensive production up to games 38 and see if it dipped from games 39-63 (25 games) the games where Hodgson was allegedly "sheltered" to "fattening" him up ... kinda like a Thanksgiving Turkey.

If I'm wrong on that ... I'm sure you or someone else will be quick to correct me. :)
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,797
4,012
CA is often a crapshoot with their opinion pieces, but I find their interest in statistics to be fun and informative. I could care less about the shot blocking injury argument because I have my own opinion and don't feel like arguing about it, but here is data taken from the last few seasons regarding man games lost and total cap hit lost to injury for the entire league

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/10/8/a-point-about-tortorella-and-shot-blocking

Yeah, I thought the article from mc79hockey was also pretty enlightening. It's not so much blocking every single shot as blocking the right kind of shots. If you can stop a reasonably dangerous shot i.e scoring chance every time, it's probably worth it.
 

Betamax*

Guest
Other commentators, including my undisputed favourite "Stats Guy" in non-mainstream media of all-time, the one and only Cam Charron, who also wrote an article on GMMG comments and in his article tried to isolate the time period, where the Canucks began "sheltering" Hodgson's minutes:

http://canucksarmy.com/2012/4/25/can-we-pinpoint-when-the-canucks-started-sheltering-cody-hodgson

I suppose for that year and from the numbers provided by Mr. Charron, one can maybe track the Sedins' offensive production up to games 38 and see if it dipped from games 39-63 (25 games) the games where Hodgson was allegedly "sheltered" to "fattening" him up ... kinda like a Thanksgiving Turkey.

If I'm wrong on that ... I'm sure you or someone else will be quick to correct me. :)

Before the Cody "Shelter":

Okay, as per the the above ... I reviewed the Sedins offensive production up to games #38 during 2011/12 to review their offensive production:

11 games in October
13 games in November
14 games in December

Total: 38 games

Henrik Sedin: 10 goals, 35 assists = 45 points (1.184 PPG)
Daniel Sedin: 17 goals, 27 assists = 43 points (1.131 PPG)

Cody Hodgson: 8 goals, 12 assists = 20 points (0.526 PPG)

After the Cody "shelter":

1 game in December
12 games in January
12 games in February

Total: 25 games

Henrik Sedin: 3 goals + 19 assists = 21 points (0.84 PPG)
Daniel Sedin: 11 goals + 9 assists = 21 points (0.84 PPG)

Cody Hodgson: 8 goals + 5 assists = 13 points (0.52 PPG)

It should be noted that although Cody's PPG didn't increase when he was given "sheltered" minutes and put in more offensive advantages situations ... his goals per game increased at the "expense" of assists per game which anyone would take that trade off and therefore, his offensive stats look better as having higher goal totals are more highly valued in the total points equation.

Obviously, there are a lot of other factors that affect one's offensive production. Such as quality of opposition, travel i.e. back to back games or not and injury factor (players tend to play "injured" to various degrees) and ice time, refereeing to give PPs or not etc..


For reference:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/837/year/2012/henrik-sedin

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/836/year/2012/daniel-sedin

http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5097/year/2012/cody-hodgson
 
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dave babych returns

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
4,977
1
My point was actually that they had a higher rate of offensive zone starts in 2011-12 than they did in 2013.

So whatever happened within 2011-12, and you'll forgive me for going off the top of my head here and pointing out that many of Hodgson's offensive zone starts came at Ryan Kesler's expense (also you have split up Henrik's point production but provided no corresponding zone start data), none of it detracts from my point that the Sedins still started ~20% more shifts in the offensive zone that year than in 2013 with only a 5% bump in production.

And of course, none of this proves that the Sedins will be less able to contribute on the scoresheet when you add defensive assignments to their workload without subtracting offensive opportunities.

Nor does it prove that the Sedins will be any more likely to be injured in those defensive assignments than they are standing in front of shots, setting picks, taking hits, grinding in the corners in the offensive zone.
 

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