The anti-overreaction thread

Lebanese Leaf

Registered User
Sep 19, 2009
7,027
65
Toronto, ON
First off, I want to start by saying I hate suits in sports. I hate suits who have platinum seats at the ACC, and I hate suits in ownership who meddle with sports franchises even more.

But let's take a step back from today's events and analyze what it means to have Anselmi + Rogers/Bell running the show, and if this means the franchise is truly boned like so many of you are insisting. MLSE has been heavily involved in Leafs ownership essentially since 1998. Whether it's Tanenbaum or Anselmi doesn't change anything, they're pretty much the same guy.

Now, with Rogers and Bell taking over the teacher's pension, many seem to think that this now means more meddling by Anselmi, which is where much of the angst is coming from. But looking at how Rogers' ownership has affected the Blue Jays, especially recently, we can see that Anthropolous has complete autonomy in baseball decisions. Sure he has to get permission from them before making big moves, but that is the case for every manager in every league with every owner.

And let's take a look at some of the most successful/storied sports franchises in the world, and see how much more "meddling" ownership can be...

-Dallas Cowboys: Jerry Jones, a huge personality who certainly meddles with his franchise, and has been since 1989. He has a say in who gets hired, who gets drafted, and constantly is involved in the media. Despite recent failures, they are still a yearly competitive team who has had considerable success during his tenure.

-Dallas Mavericks: Mark Cuban, another huge celebrity personality. Has had his own reality shows, appeared in TV shows, very loud and outspoken. Loves his team, and is constantly meddling in basketball related decisions.

-New York Yankees: George Steinbrenner, from 1973 until his death in 2010, he owned the Yankees and was a celebrity. He meddled like no one else, and had his fingerprints all over every aspect of the franchise. And yet the Yankees were and continue to be one of the world's most successful franchises.

-Manchester United: Malcolm Glazer, the club was bought from the public because they were in debt and Glazer increased his ownership up to 75%. The fans hated and continue to hate the ownership, but that hasn't stopped them form continuing to be one of the world's richest and most successful sports franchises.

-Chelsea FC: Roman Abramovich, perhaps the poster boy for meddling with his team. The man has no patience, and constantly fires his managers after the smallest of miscues. He is a laughingstock among many fans, and many Chelsea supporters hate how much he meddles. Nonetheless, they have become a football powerhouse during his ownership, and just recently won the Champions league in 2012.

I can keep going, but I'll leave it at that for now. I'm sure many of you have more examples.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,146
2,972
Vaughan, Ontario
It is shocking to see a character like Burke go. Im sad to see him go I was a fan, but I still like our team moving forward and am just as optimistic at our chances of making the playoffs. Nothing really has changed.
 

Lebanese Leaf

Registered User
Sep 19, 2009
7,027
65
Toronto, ON
Wasn't Anselmi in charge of TFC?

Enough said.

I follow TFC more than most on this board.

TFC's problems are not ownership's fault. The team has been given all the resources they could possibly ask for. They hired a highly touted former Dutch international young coach in Aron Winter who was praised upon arriving. He was supposed to install a system from top to bottom that would allow TFC to raise players that could play "total football." He was allowed to have 3 designated players (the MLS maximum). He simply could not get it done, despite showing early success. He didn't know how to adjust to MLS style games. They then hired a more experienced coach at the MLS level after that in Mariner, which is what the people wanted, but that didn't work again. How is that on ownership?

TFC has been given everything they could ask for, and ownership has not been cheap or interfering when it comes to coaching hires. Their failures lie in disappointing performances by players and coaches, not ownership.
 

LeafOfBread

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
13,107
0
Mississauga, ON
Bad comparisons. What have Tanenbaum or Anselmi accomplished? These other guys may have meddled, but they know a thing or two about their respective sports. I would absolutely love it if a hockey-fan version of Mark Cuban owned the Leafs. I would have no problem with that. This is far different though, the Leafs are owned by a bunch of Bay Street tools who seem to have no semblance to actual, knowledgeable individuals when it comes to hockey. They know about as much as Bob McCowen does.
 

DD03

3D
Mar 15, 2010
21,734
9
I follow TFC more than most on this board.

TFC's problems are not ownership's fault. The team has been given all the resources they could possibly ask for. They hired a highly touted former Dutch international young coach in Aron Winter who was praised upon arriving. He was supposed to install a system from top to bottom that would allow TFC to raise players that could play "total football." He was allowed to have 3 designated players (the MLS maximum). He simply could not get it done, despite showing early success. He didn't know how to adjust to MLS style games. They then hired a more experienced coach at the MLS level after that in Mariner, which is what the people wanted, but that didn't work again. How is that on ownership?

TFC has been given everything they could ask for, and ownership has not been cheap or interfering when it comes to coaching hires. Their failures lie in disappointing performances by players and coaches, not ownership.

anselmiout.jpeg
 

LeeIs

....--....
Mar 17, 2004
18,332
49
T.O.
oh trust me, this will just be another overreaction thread in no time.

The thing I don't get is how some people know for sure that they will meddle to the extent that it will make the leafs a worse team.

The only thing that I care about is the improvement of the team. I don't give a crap if they will meddle or not.
 

Kingstonian84*

Registered User
Sep 23, 2012
2,388
0
It is shocking to see a character like Burke go. Im sad to see him go I was a fan, but I still like our team moving forward and am just as optimistic at our chances of making the playoffs. Nothing really has changed.

I'm not shocked he was fired, Burke has not done a good job at improving this leafs squad since arriving. I'm not saying the leafs needed to win the cup or go deep in the playoffs, but under his regime last year (and the year before that) they should have at least made it to the dance and even if they got bounced in the 1st round I would consider that progress. However, I am surprised at the timing though and how the firing was conducted! I don't get why they waited until NOW to fire him, this move should have been done at the end of last season or at the very latest when the new ownership took over in August.
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
11,364
2,032
I follow TFC more than most on this board.

TFC's problems are not ownership's fault. The team has been given all the resources they could possibly ask for. They hired a highly touted former Dutch international young coach in Aron Winter who was praised upon arriving. He was supposed to install a system from top to bottom that would allow TFC to raise players that could play "total football." He was allowed to have 3 designated players (the MLS maximum). He simply could not get it done, despite showing early success. He didn't know how to adjust to MLS style games. They then hired a more experienced coach at the MLS level after that in Mariner, which is what the people wanted, but that didn't work again. How is that on ownership?

TFC has been given everything they could ask for, and ownership has not been cheap or interfering when it comes to coaching hires. Their failures lie in disappointing performances by players and coaches, not ownership.

TFC gets all the resources they need. But ownership keeps hiring the wrong people. Winter may have had a good rep, but he didnt do a good job. Ownership made that hire, so they have to take some responsibility for his failure. And when you hire more coaches than years played, clearly ownership is doing something wrong.

MLSE has a miserable track record when it comes to success on the ice/court/field. I cant think of an organization that has done worse. At some point you need to look at the top as the problem.

Hopefully with Bell and Rogers at the helm they bring in some accountability for people at all levels of the organization, and that creates a winning product.
 

Rude Dog

Registered User
Dec 22, 2008
4,127
3,100
Just feels like we are constantly getting kicked in the nuts. From how the season ended, to the lock out...to finally having something to cheer about and then they fire Burke. No joy in Mudville. Can't stand listening to the haters gloat. Annie was wrong. The sun never comes up.
 

Epictetus

YNWA
Jan 2, 2010
16,282
380
Ontario
1) The way the Blue Jays are structured and the way the Leafs are structured are fundamentally different. The Blue Jays, for one, have Paul Beeston. He possesses considerable knowledge, and is a great person as well as friend that Alex Anthropolous reports to. More importantly, he is the link for the general manager to the Owners when discussing financial matters. His background in baseball is an added bonus because he understands the player market. The Leafs have no such person.

2) I agree that meddling Owners are a distraction. However, this becomes secondary if a team is winning. Those examples you cited show relatively winning organizations, or at least with a history of such (Dallas Cowboys). When the Leafs were winning at the time, it was a secondary issue. Now that the Leafs are losing, it is a primary issue. The solution appears to be to start winning, again.

Exactly my point. People need to realize that when we win, no one will bring up these issues. They're all just trying to find a scapegoat for losing right now

The question becomes to what degree does the current ownership impede the hockey decisions being made in this city. Are they going to be negative towards winning or positive towards winning? I think regardless, you have to be able, as owners, to trust what your hockey minds are telling you. Right now it just seems like too many people are trying to get behind the wheel. Hence, the fans current anxiety.

Cliff Fletcher and Brian Burke are advisors to the Leafs Brass.

They are advisers, yes. However, this is a different position from what Beeston is as a CEO and President of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Think of it like the positioning at a university. You have a professor (formerly Burke), who has a senior professor who is the head of that subject's department (no such person for the Leafs). This person would then report to the Dean or President of University (Owners), or something.
 
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Lebanese Leaf

Registered User
Sep 19, 2009
7,027
65
Toronto, ON
1) The way the Blue Jays are structured and the way the Leafs are structured are fundamentally different. The Blue Jays, for one, have Paul Beeston. He possesses considerable knowledge, and is a great person as well as friend that Alex Anthropolous reports to. More importantly, he is the link for the general manager to the Owners when discussing financial matters. His background in baseball is an added bonus because he understands the player market. The Leafs have no such person.

2) I agree that meddling Owners are a distraction. However, this becomes secondary if a team is winning. Those examples you cited show relatively winning organizations, or at least with a history of such (Dallas Cowboys). When the Leafs were winning at the time, it was a secondary-issue. Now that the Leafs are losing, it is a primary issue. The solution appears to be to start winning, again.

Exactly my point. People need to realize that when we win, no one will bring up these issues. They're all just trying to find a scapegoat for losing right now
 

DD03

3D
Mar 15, 2010
21,734
9
Exactly my point. People need to realize that when we win, no one will bring up these issues. They're all just trying to find a scapegoat for losing right now

If we trade to win now, we will continue to have problems in the future. Sometimes just waiting and letting the team build is the best thing. If that was Burke's idea, was he wrong?
 

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,332
17,259
1) The way the Blue Jays are structured and the way the Leafs are structured are fundamentally different. The Blue Jays, for one, have Paul Beeston. He possesses considerable knowledge, and is a great person as well as friend that Alex Anthropolous reports to. More importantly, he is the link for the general manager to the Owners when discussing financial matters. His background in baseball is an added bonus because he understands the player market. The Leafs have no such person.

2) I agree that meddling Owners are a distraction. However, this becomes secondary if a team is winning. Those examples you cited show relatively winning organizations, or at least with a history of such (Dallas Cowboys). When the Leafs were winning at the time, it was a secondary issue. Now that the Leafs are losing, it is a primary issue. The solution appears to be to start winning, again.

Cliff Fletcher and Brian Burke are advisors to the Leafs Brass.
 

aselvana

Registered User
Jan 6, 2013
30
0
there is a common similarity in all those team you mention, they are privately owned (well you can say manu has some public interest due to their refiancing, but still owned by the family) the leafs, raptors marlies and tfc are owned by a two corporations. totally different culture. the board runs the teams and in turn they provide results to the shareholders. they could give rat's butt if any of their teams win championship as long as their return on capital are above exceptional levels. they gonna run a tighter ship and hold their employees accountable. if you dont produce you're out.
 

Badger Mayhew*

Guest
oh trust me, this will just be another overreaction thread in no time.

The thing I don't get is how some people know for sure that they will meddle to the extent that it will make the leafs a worse team.

The only thing that I care about is the improvement of the team. I don't give a crap if they will meddle or not.

I know it's hilarious. The amount of people I've seen freak out over "our future being destroyed" is ridiculous. Are they forgetting how many years Burke set us back with the Kessel trade? He was the main problem.

Most of it's coming from the unsubstantiated Luongo rumors. Bob McCown sure knows how to rile Leafs fans up :laugh:
 
Apr 1, 2010
9,715
53
I know it's hilarious. The amount of people I've seen freak out over "our future being destroyed" is ridiculous. Are they forgetting how many years Burke set us back with the Kessel trade? He was the main problem.

Most of it's coming from the unsubstantiated Luongo rumors. Bob McCown sure knows how to rile Leafs fans up :laugh:

Set us back? So you think we would have already made the playoffs with Seguin?

:laugh:
 

Badger Mayhew*

Guest
Set us back? So you think we would have already made the playoffs with Seguin?

:laugh:

Where exactly did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Our team with Seguin+Hamilton+Knight>>>>>>>>>Our team with Kessel. Period.
 

Lebanese Leaf

Registered User
Sep 19, 2009
7,027
65
Toronto, ON
If we trade to win now, we will continue to have problems in the future. Sometimes just waiting and letting the team build is the best thing. If that was Burke's idea, was he wrong?

Absolutely. I'm all for waiting and letting the team build. IMO trading impact young players for Luongo is not the way to go right now. But when we do start winning, no one will care about who's owner anymore.
 

The Lemonheads

Peanut Gallery
Feb 2, 2010
3,022
335
Toronto
I follow TFC more than most on this board.

TFC's problems are not ownership's fault. The team has been given all the resources they could possibly ask for. They hired a highly touted former Dutch international young coach in Aron Winter who was praised upon arriving. He was supposed to install a system from top to bottom that would allow TFC to raise players that could play "total football." He was allowed to have 3 designated players (the MLS maximum). He simply could not get it done, despite showing early success. He didn't know how to adjust to MLS style games. They then hired a more experienced coach at the MLS level after that in Mariner, which is what the people wanted, but that didn't work again. How is that on ownership?

TFC has been given everything they could ask for, and ownership has not been cheap or interfering when it comes to coaching hires. Their failures lie in disappointing performances by players and coaches, not ownership.

And Winter was after Dasovic,after Preki, after Cummins, after Carver, and MOST importantly after MoJo.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Theres no stability!
 

false bobo

Registered User
Dec 6, 2011
2,070
2
did you really list Jerry Jones as your first example LOL.. go ask any real cowboys fan what they think of him
 

Rude Dog

Registered User
Dec 22, 2008
4,127
3,100
Where exactly did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Our team with Seguin+Hamilton+Knight>>>>>>>>>Our team with Kessel. Period.

Oh how things might be different if Burke simply agreed to trade Kessel for Kabs and the 7th pick (Kadri).
 

Penalty Kill Icing*

Guest
As I mentioned in other thread, Jan 19th can't come soon enough.

We got some hockey games to win!
 

12345*

Guest
Where exactly did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Our team with Seguin+Hamilton+Knight>>>>>>>>>Our team with Kessel. Period.

What you don't seem to get is the Leafs traded 2 x 1sts and a 2nd. We didn't trade Seguin Hamilton and Knight for Kessel. Secondly, do the all teams use the same draft order list? Or do you not understand that the Bruins scouting staff is different than the Leafs staff? Who the hell knows who the Leafs would have drafted. Thirdly, Kessel is the currently the best player of that list - and he does it with minimal supporting cast. Fourth, Hamilton hasn't done **** in the NHL. Fifth, who the hell cares about some random 3rd line scrub in Knight. PERIOD. FULL STOP. DELETE YOUR POST.
 

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