The Andrew MacDonald Discussion Thread

[TCTC]

Please bear with me on this... My big gripe with AMac was basically that he was way overpaid on a long Contract on a Team that was Cap strapped.

Fast forward to a Team that is no longer hampered with a too high Cap Payroll -- note the general acceptance and non-protest over the signing of the highly paid Filp and the taking on of the way overpriced Lehtera in order to be able to gain a couple First Round Selections -- AMac's Cap Hit is no longer a large concern... and arguably not a concern whatsoever.

Being paired with the #1 D-man doesn't mean nor require the #2 D-man being on the Top Pair... as perfectly demonstrated with Chris Therien being a long-term partner of Desjardins that worked so very well for all hose Seasons with the Flyers... Not comparing AMac/Provo with Bundy/Rico, merely using that to express my thought. If Provo feels comfortable with AMac and Management feels that that match-up gives them a better chance to win in the long run, I have no problems with it.

Moving AMac ultimately gives them more Cap to have more flibility... but while he is on the Team, I really don't see any major problem... as long as they stay Cap comfortable... and maybe some of us are really making too big a deal over AMac... maybe we should just chill and allow it to play out.

JMO

Exactly. Provorov is playing well and he seems to like playing with MacDonald. That's the most important thing right now, because we don't have a true #2 to replace MacDonald anyway. We don't have a Vlasic type defenseman.

 

[achdumeingute]

The Flyers are a better team with MacDonald out of the picture. He’s an addition by subtraction.

I don't think anyone really wants Amac here. However, I'm not willing to spend a 2nd round pick to jettison him, nor would i want Sanheim to play those minutes this year. After this year, I'd be fine with a buyout...I still think he's tradeable to a budget team, because he can play 82 games.

Mac out, Gudas up, Morin/Sanheim 3rd pair, sure.

However, we are making the best of the situation this year i think.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I don't think anyone really wants Amac here. However, I'm not willing to spend a 2nd round pick to jettison him, nor would i want Sanheim to play those minutes this year.

Mac out, Gudas up, Morin/Sanheim 3rd pair, sure.

However, we are making the best of the situation this year i think.

You don’t need to trade him. You could demote him & wait to buy him out in summer of 2019. Neither will happen though as the Flyers think he’s legitimately a good player.

 

[achdumeingute]

You don’t need to trade him. You could demote him & wait to buy him out in summer of 2019. Neither will happen though as the Flyers think he’s legitimately a good player.

Well, they certainly would be killing any "value" by demoting him. There is no way that Hak or other Management is going to say he sucks not matter how they really feel. They might like him, they might not, or they might not want to put extra responsibility on the shoulders of a rookie.

If he's STILL here in the last year of his deal playing top pair minutes, then yes, they like him. But there are reasons right now that I could buy him being played there right now.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Well, they certainly would be killing any "value" by demoting him. There is no way that Hak or other Management is going to say he sucks not matter how they really feel. They might like him, they might not, or they might not want to put extra responsibility on the shoulders of a rookie.

If he's STILL here in the last year of his deal playing top pair minutes, then yes, they like him. But there are reasons right now that I could buy him being played there right now.

I don’t expect them to come out & say he sucks. But when you heap constant praise on him & the actions back that up as well then it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that they think he’s a good player. The dude has been used as a top 2-4 defensemen since being recalled. You don’t put a guy in that role if you think he’s a negative player.

 

[achdumeingute]

You don’t put a guy in that role if you think he’s a negative player.

You do if you he might be the best negative option. Maybe they don't feel Gudas can handle it. Maybe they don't want to put too much on a rookie. Maybe Provo feels like Mac plays good with him, and thus you are helping your more important younger player's confidence. Maybe they love Amac. Hard to know without being in the room.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You do if you he might be the best negative option. Maybe they don't feel Gudas can handle it. Maybe they don't want to put too much on a rookie. Maybe Provo feels like Mac plays good with him, and thus you are helping your more important younger player's confidence. Maybe they love Amac. Hard to know without being in the room.

If they don’t think Gudas can handle it then that’s just another piss poor evaluation by this organization.

 

[Magua]

And Gudas was used in a similar ES role to AMac last year: minutes and competition. Except playing with Manning and MDZ. He clearly can handle it, despite what they're doing this year with him.

 

[achdumeingute]

If they don’t think Gudas can handle it then that’s just another piss poor evaluation by this organization.

Lol how is that? the guy was a throwin on the Coburn deal, granted he was hurt, but if TB thought he could play 1st pair minutes he'd still be there. We got him for someone we were not keeping and Gudas can play a role. He wasn't the #1 overall projected to be great and failed. How is there any poor evaluation on this at all.

 

[achdumeingute]

And Gudas was used in a similar ES role to AMac last year: minutes and competition. Except playing with Manning and MDZ. He clearly can handle it, despite what they're doing this year with him.

Well, 1 year performance does not indicate you will do it again, but IMO does it warrant the opportunity to prove you can't handle it, sure?

However, maybe Provo plays better with Mac than Gudas...so there you go. IMO, the only thing i want this year is to put our prospects in the best positions for them to succeed. I truly trust the Flyers org to do that. They have shown in the last 3 years that's what they are doing. This will pay more dividends in 3-5 years than this year.

 

[Magua]

Well, 1 year performance does not indicate you will do it again, but IMO does it warrant the opportunity to prove you can't handle it, sure?

However, maybe Provo plays better with Mac than Gudas...so there you go. IMO, the only thing i want this year is to put our prospects in the best positions for them to succeed. I truly trust the Flyers org to do that. They have shown in the last 3 years that's what they are doing. This will pay more dividends in 3-5 years than this year.

We'll never know because Gudas has played with Provorov for like 2 games. And Gudas over the previous 2 years was our consistently best ES d-man without question. Even last year you could argue he was better than Provorov there. MacDonald has never sniffed a season in his career within a parsec of either of Gudas's seasons.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing because it's unclear. That MacDonald is better in a top 4 role than Gudas? That long-term playing with MacDonald is better for Provorov's development and is the best position for him to succeed -- with one of our worst defensemen? I'm going to have to, uhhh, disagree.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Lol how is that? the guy was a throwin on the Coburn deal, granted he was hurt, but if TB thought he could play 1st pair minutes he'd still be there. We got him for someone we were not keeping and Gudas can play a role. He wasn't the #1 overall projected to be great and failed. How is there any poor evaluation on this at all.

The trade & Coburn are irrelevant to this discussion since it’s pretty clear Gudas has improved since then & is anything but a throw in talent.

If you think Gudas can’t handle a top 2-4 role opposed to MacDonald than yes that is a piss poor evaluation. There isn’t a statistic out there that supports MacDonald being a good defensemen in that role. It’s quite the opposite actually. There are some for Gudas. The eye test seems to confirm that as well.

 

[Tripod]

Well, 1 year performance does not indicate you will do it again, but IMO does it warrant the opportunity to prove you can't handle it, sure?

However, maybe Provo plays better with Mac than Gudas...so there you go. IMO, the only thing i want this year is to put our prospects in the best positions for them to succeed. I truly trust the Flyers org to do that. They have shown in the last 3 years that's what they are doing. This will pay more dividends in 3-5 years than this year.

Scratching Morin or sending him to the AHL again is not putting him in the best situation to succeed.

Nice to know it takes 8-10 years for drafted guys to pay dividends. And of course, this is an exaggeration. But again, this is not just drafted rookies. These are seasoned rookies who have paid their dues. If rookie Provy can drag around AMac, then 2nd year Provy can do the same with Hagg. I have no doubt in that.

 

[achdumeingute]

We'll never know because Gudas has played with Provorov for like 2 games. And Gudas over the previous 2 years was our consistently best ES d-man without question. Even last year you could argue he was better than Provorov there. MacDonald has never sniffed a season in his career within a parsec of either of Gudas's seasons.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing because it's unclear. That MacDonald is better in a top 4 role than Gudas? That long-term playing with MacDonald is better for Provorov's development and is the best position for him to succeed -- with one of our worst defensemen? I'm going to have to, uhhh, disagree.

We are not there in practice. I'm sure Gudas/Provy has happened. Maybe they SUCK in practice together. I'm simply saying maybe Provie likes Amac, and FEELs he plays better with him and the org wants to make sure that player is as comfy as possible as he develops.

In addition, we can't easily jettison Amac without eating cap, ect...so play him with a player who likes to play with him, and eat time until he's gone.

 

[achdumeingute]

Scratching Morin or sending him to the AHL again is not putting him in the best situation to succeed.

Nice to know it takes 8-10 years for drafted guys to pay dividends. And of course, this is an exaggeration. But again, this is not just drafted rookies. These are seasoned rookies who have paid their dues. If rookie Provy can drag around AMac, then 2nd year Provy can do the same with Hagg. I have no doubt in that.

Scratching him or sending him down is better than throwing him into fire he's not ready for.

 

[Tripod]

Scratching him or sending him down is better than throwing him into fire he's not ready for.

Except his pre-season games and AHl experience shows he is ready.

 

[Magua]

We are not there in practice. I'm sure Gudas/Provy has happened. Maybe they SUCK in practice together. I'm simply saying maybe Provie likes Amac, and FEELs he plays better with him and the org wants to make sure that player is as comfy as possible as he develops.

In addition, we can't easily jettison Amac without eating cap, ect...so play him with a player who likes to play with him, and eat time until he's gone.

Well, that's a lot to unpack. We'd know if they were together in practice because practices aren't closed to the public.....lines and pairings are reported. If the idea is to split our two best ES d-men to maximize their ice time, okay, but I don't know what they're doing right now.

I won't touch the assumption that he likes playing with him and tells the coaches he wants to play with him. He plays with who the coaches put him with. He's not giving the coaches a list, and I'm sure he likes all of his teammates and would not gripe about being paired with anyone.

Clearly the coaches like the pairing. That we know. That also serves as no proof the pairing actually does well or is ideal. I don't call spending games in your own end and being heavily outscored, as they have in their time together, "comfortable." You don't eat time on a bad contract for a bad player by willingly making him a top pair defenseman to worsen the team and neuter your best d-man. But they like it for whatever reason. It doesn't have to be logical.

 

[achdumeingute]

Clearly the coaches like the pairing.

Better than the other options that are on the table, that's all i would say. I don't categorically disagree with anything else you said. I don't know any better than anyone else besides our coaches/management what they like or do not like. I'm not going to say I'm 100% right, nor that "anyone" else is wrong, because i just don't know. I'm merely tossing out suggestions for what it could be BESIDES Amac's play as to why he is in that role, as i think we can all agree he's not that level. Personally, i think he's better than Carle though...

IMO i think people are more emotional/"hyperbolistic" about Amac than rational, and I'd say I object to that as well.

 

[Rebels57]

MacDonald being on the top pair with Provorov is not "better than the other available options."

Gudas is better than MacDonald.

Hagg is better than MacDonald.

They are both available options.

It would not be hard to make either option work and I would wager the team would be better off for it.

 

[sobrien]

I'm gonna drop this little bomb and leave...

I think he's played well so far this year. Probably not sustainable though.

 

[Foggy14]

I'm gonna drop this little bomb and leave...

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

MacDonald being on the top pair with Provorov is not "better than the other available options."

Gudas is better than MacDonald.

Hagg is better than MacDonald.

They are both available options.

It would not be hard to make either option work and I would wager the team would be better off for it.

Eh, the guy is having good chemistry with Provorov, and Gudas has not looked all that great thus far this year. I also don't think you throw Hagg out there on the top pair right out of the gate. I'm sure things will change throughout the season and you can rest easy that AMac sucks and your whipping boy will be alive and well, but it's working for now.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

yeah I think I can agree. look I think we all can agree that AMAC play so far is likely unsustainable. But I dont know if I am ready to force Hagg into a top pairing minutes role right now. i think his usage is fine right now.
If Provorov is comfortable with having AMAC with him on the top pair we are likely going o have to live with it. We hate it, but if the player is ok with it then they will continue to roll with it.

 

[deadhead]

Morin lost out to Hagg, who is more talented than people seem to think, he was a 2nd rd pick, he did play in the AHL at a young age, and has 3 AHL seasons under his belt. No shame there.

Morin is better than Manning, but you don't care if you glue Manning to the bench, you want to play Morin.

Most of these issues will work their way out on the ice.
If Hagg keeps playing well he's a lock on the top 6.
They want Sanheim to succeed.
They like Morin, but he's a LH D-man only, which makes it a little awkward right now.

Ideally, MacDonald plays really well this year, and Hextall moves him in the offseaason (or if the Hockey Gods love us, in the spring), retaining half his salary and picking up a late round draft pick.

Provorov - Hagg
Ghost - Gudas
Morin - Sanheim
with Friedman and Myers starting next year n the AHL and Hextall listening to trade offers.

 

[Rebels57]

If the player is ok with it?

Where is that coming from?

Do you think Provy wants to do 75% of the work in his own zone and get peppered with a disproportionate amount of shot attempts?

As good as Provy has been, that pair has a sub-40% Corsi at the moment (worst on the team) because of MacDonald.