The almost 3/4 of the season Hart talk.

[Regal]

Draisaitl scenario makes zero sense, he was already leading in points and Edmonton was in a playoff position before mcdavid went down. He deserves some votes but shouldn’t be in the top 3

So the only way he has a case is if he took the Oilers from outside of the playoffs with McDavid to making the playoffs while McDavid is out, and coming back to win the Art Ross? That sounds like some pretty unrealistic expectations. He and McDavid have carried the team to a playoff position, and if he can keep them in that position while maintaining his Art Ross lead without McDavid, that's more than enough to get top 3.

 

[McShogun99]

Draisaitl scenario makes zero sense, he was already leading in points and Edmonton was in a playoff position before mcdavid went down. He deserves some votes but shouldn’t be in the top 3

A playoff position that he helped them get to with his dominating offensive performance this off season. Edmonton was a bottom feeder the last 2 years. Voters love voting for players that either dominate offensively or are a big part in their team squeaking into the playoffs. Draisaitl could potentially do both which could get him more votes then Mackinnon. Either way you can't really complain if either of those players win.

 

[El Travo]

At this point it's MacKinnon, followed by Pastrnak and Panarin.

What about McDavid or Draisaitl? The fact that people would argue for both of them kind at the same time of defeats the point of being the MVP. Before McDavid went down he was the favourite according to HF (along with every other trophy in existence apparently). After McDavid goes down all of a sudden Draisaitl is the guy? Give me a break. Sure, they can score a lot but when you put up 53/44 even strength points and are still a minus by a decent chunk it's not a great look. It doesn't matter if you score 2 if you're on the ice for 2-3 against.

 

[bobholly39]

At this point it's MacKinnon, followed by Pastrnak and Panarin.

What about McDavid or Draisaitl? The fact that people would argue for both of them kind at the same time of defeats the point of being the MVP. Before McDavid went down he was the favourite according to HF (along with every other trophy in existence apparently). After McDavid goes down all of a sudden Draisaitl is the guy? Give me a break. Sure, they can score a lot but when you put up 53/44 even strength points and are still a minus by a decent chunk it's not a great look. It doesn't matter if you score 2 if you're on the ice for 2-3 against.

The narrative the past couple of seasons is that if McDavid had dragged the Oilers to the playoffs, he would for sure win the hart (even last year, in Kucherov's 128 point season, there was a lot of chatter about it).

Nothing's changed in Edmonton. It's still just McDavid, and Drai (who was also good last year, but obviously producing even more this year). Still not much additional depth or roster overhaul.

Why would the Oilers making the playoffs this year not be significant enough to allow either McDavid or Drai to win the hart? Makes no sense. It's one thing if Pastrnak, Panarin or Mack score more and win the ross (or even come within 1-2 points). If Drai has a big lead on the ross, and Oilers make the playoffs - he deserves the hart. I wouldn't overthink it tbh.

McDavid and Drai had been 1A/1B this season. I know McDavid has a history of finishing seasons very, very strong. If he doesn't miss too many games, comes back and makes a race of the Ross with Drai - maybe voters prefer him. If not - it's Drai. Unless the Oilers fall out of playoff spot, or someone other than them wins the Ross (or even comes within 2-3 points) - they won't lose it.

It's fine to say that Dra/McDavid have each other, and look at Col's 2nd scorer. So what? Colorado still has the better overall offensive depth. They have the 3rd most goals scored this season. For the record, both Boston (Pastrnak) and NYR (Panarin) also have scored more goals than Oilers.

Finally - when a team is trying to score more goals than the opposition to win a hockey game - I guarantee you that in 100% of hockey games played since the start of time - no team has ever complained "ah shit! that goal he scored was on the pp, instead of EV!". A goal is a goal, and a point is a point, doesn't matter what the breakdown of EV vs PP is. Not sure why that would be relevant.

 

[Aceboogie]

At this point it's MacKinnon, followed by Pastrnak and Panarin.

What about McDavid or Draisaitl? The fact that people would argue for both of them kind at the same time of defeats the point of being the MVP. Before McDavid went down he was the favourite according to HF (along with every other trophy in existence apparently). After McDavid goes down all of a sudden Draisaitl is the guy? Give me a break. Sure, they can score a lot but when you put up 53/44 even strength points and are still a minus by a decent chunk it's not a great look. It doesn't matter if you score 2 if you're on the ice for 2-3 against.

Right, MacKinnon and Pasta are the only good players on their team. There is nobody on either team say, in the lead for the Calder

 

[Aceboogie]

I just don’t buy the teammate argument. If you are going to say Draisaitl can’t win because McDavid is on the same team. Why not say Pasta can’t because Bergy and Marchand are on the team? Its just not an argument that makes sense.

This guy gets it

Or Avs fans in this thread pumping MacKinnon and saying LD has McDavid (or eachother)

Then in the Calder thread pumping the crap outta Makar and how hes not only the best rookie, but one of the best D in the league

 

[bobholly39]

This guy gets it

Or Avs fans in this thread pumping MacKinnon and saying LD has McDavid (or eachother)

Then in the Calder thread pumping the crap outta Makar and how hes not only the best rookie, but one of the best D in the league

The one element that may in fact hurt McDavid and Drai is voters not knowing who to vote for.

Maybe i'm forgetting a season - but the last time i can remember two teammates dominating atop the league as much as those two are this season was Lemieux/Jagr in 96. Now - I love Jagr - but in my mind if I had a vote it's 100% Lemieux. He's the better of the 2, he was seen as the leader/better player, and he also produced more that season.

In this case - McDavid is seen as the better player/center/leader above Drai. But Drai is having the slightly better season - maybe soon to be by a good gap too, if McDavid misses enough time. So who do voters vote for?

There's probably an inherent bias to favor McDavid over Drai, but based on games missed/scoring race many voters may end up preferring Drai, or being split. I'm not saying they should penalize McDavid or Drai because they have each other and choose to vote Mack. I'm saying if i'm a voter - i don't know that i'd vote both Oiler players ahead of everyone else. I'd likely pick 1 Oiler first, 1 Non-Oiler 2nd, and maybe an Oiler again in 3rd, or 4th place, to try and spread my votes around. And if half the voters vote McDavid first, and the other half vote Drai first, and the majority vote Mack 2nd or 3rd - Mack could still end up winning if McD and Drai split the votes.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Hischier, Palmieri, Butcher, Vatanen. Other role players did well like Moore, Wood, and Severson. They're not a pretty team on paper at all, but they played well enough as a team to have league-average defense, the 7th best PK, and average goaltending. Hall provided a lot of the offense, but they weren't a complete dumpster fire without him. And there are other factors outside the Devils: the Panthers (who actually had 2 more ROW than the Devils) missed that last playoff spot by 1 pt; Luongo had a .929 Sv% that season, but he had a bunch of injuries, and would have gotten the Panthers into that last playoff spot if he played even 1-2 more games. It was also slightly easier to make the playoffs that season than this season, where that same WC spot team is on pace for 100-101 pts instead of 97.

McDavid had the highest Point Share of any skater that year, but received only 16.46% of the Hart trophy votes because the Oilers didn't make the playoffs. That's why I think it's nonsense that making the playoffs should be a qualification for the voting...a 1 pt change in the standings and all of a sudden Hall not only wouldn't win, he probably wouldn't have even finished in the top-3. The Devils also won 1 playoff game and were done, which is another problem with the voting method: if playoffs = value, then the logical conclusion is Stanley Cup = value, which would mean players on the remaining 30 teams who didn't win it would have contributed "no value" during the regular season.

Panarin is just doing a little more for the Rangers this year than Hall did for Devils that year. His Point Score pace is higher, the Rangers shot rates with/without Panarin are much more dramatic, and he has a 5v5 Individual Points Percentage of 80.65 whereas Hall had 70.77. He's doing it 5v5 too, Panarin only has 18 PP pts this season.

Rangers are currently a bit more offensively inclined than the devils were at any point in recent history, with or without Panarin because Zibby is an absolute beast. Taylor Hall led a trash team to the playoffs, doesn't really matter what happens afterwards because the votes are in before the playoffs begin. It's an unwritten rule that you need to at least make the playoffs to be in consideration, not sure if its ever gonna change but if you have 2 guys who are arguably as good as each other in the regular season like McDavid and Draisaitl are then you would expect them to lose votes to each other and to someone who led their team in scoring by over 40 points. Speaking of 40 points, only 2 forwards on the devils roster had at least that many points besides Hall. I think generally that the media shouldn't have the voting power that they have for these awards because I doubt many of them have actually played hockey at even a recreational level, but that probably wont change anytime soon.

 

[aufheben]

Rangers are currently a bit more offensively inclined than the devils were at any point in recent history, with or without Panarin because Zibby is an absolute beast. Taylor Hall led a trash team to the playoffs, doesn't really matter what happens afterwards because the votes are in before the playoffs begin. It's an unwritten rule that you need to at least make the playoffs to be in consideration, not sure if its ever gonna change but if you have 2 guys who are arguably as good as each other in the regular season like McDavid and Draisaitl are then you would expect them to lose votes to each other and to someone who led their team in scoring by over 40 points. Speaking of 40 points, only 2 forwards on the devils roster had at least that many points besides Hall. I think generally that the media shouldn't have the voting power that they have for these awards because I doubt many of them have actually played hockey at even a recreational level, but that probably wont change anytime soon.

That’s my point, if what happens in the playoffs doesn’t matter, then making the playoffs shouldn’t matter.

 

[aufheben]

This thread really shows how big peoples homer glasses are....so much misinformation, obscure stats, and lack of understanding. The Hart will go to a playoff player. And most likely the Art Ross winner if that player makes the playoffs.....thats how it always is.

People know that, they just disagree with it.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

That’s my point, if what happens in the playoffs doesn’t matter, then making the playoffs shouldn’t matter.

There are regular season awards and playoff awards, in every sport. I am not sure why you can't just accept that.

 

[aufheben]

There are regular season awards and playoff awards, in every sport. I am not sure why you can't just accept that.

What I’m saying is that a regular season award should have nothing to do with the playoffs.

 

[Jesus Take the Wheel]

You'd think Kucherov winning the Hart last year while being on one of the most dominant regular season teams in a long time is enough evidence that if Drai hits 125+ points like he is on pace for, he will win the Hart

 

[Vex]

What I’m saying is that a regular season award should have nothing to do with the playoffs.

The Hart trophy is so flawed. Literally every voter of the award has ignored the definition of the trophy for so long that it's become "best player" when the NHL already has a best player award. It's so silly. Making the playoffs should have no bearing on the outcome of the vote.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

At this point it's MacKinnon, followed by Pastrnak and Panarin.

What about McDavid or Draisaitl? The fact that people would argue for both of them kind at the same time of defeats the point of being the MVP. Before McDavid went down he was the favourite according to HF (along with every other trophy in existence apparently). After McDavid goes down all of a sudden Draisaitl is the guy? Give me a break. Sure, they can score a lot but when you put up 53/44 even strength points and are still a minus by a decent chunk it's not a great look. It doesn't matter if you score 2 if you're on the ice for 2-3 against.

If anything, MacKinnon and Pastranak have way better teammates than Draisaitl. Just because the Oilers talent is all concentrated in McDavid doesn't mean Draisaitl can't be MVP.

And for Panarin, McDavid dominated last year and didn't win because the Oilers missed the playoffs.

 

[Avsboy]

The point disparity argument screwed Mackinnon out of one Hart. That same argument should give it to him this time.

 

[Spilot23]

I don't get people leaving off Drai in their top 3. He's the leading scorer right now I get that he's playing with McDavid most of the time but right now even hurt and playing on a different line he's still lighting it up. Pretty sure almost everyone had them in the bottom 5 this season. What the Oilers are doing with their supposedly terrible roster is outstanding to me of course having the best player in the world does help. I think Draisaitl is favorite right now followed by Mack and Pasta. Panarin should absolutely be considered if he gets the Rangers in the playoffs.

 

[Bank Shot]

The Hart trophy is so flawed. Literally every voter of the award has ignored the definition of the trophy for so long that it's become "best player" when the NHL already has a best player award. It's so silly. Making the playoffs should have no bearing on the outcome of the vote.

It is the best player award though.

I think writers tried to get cute after they added the Pearson decided by the players for best player.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

So what’s to say these new “stats” you’re using aren’t also BS like whatever you used to come to the conclusion that Kase was so good?

WAR and RAPM adjust for contextual factors that raw rates and on ice numbers dont/cant adjust for.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Yeah. And to be fair it is defined as "player judged most valuable to their team." But a great player on a lesser team is always going to seem more important than a greater player on a great team. Doesn't mean that player is actually more valuable or better just means relative to their teammates they have the most value. So it's easy for a guy like MacKinnon - there is no one else (at least offensively) who is even in his realm of value. But Drai and McDavid are about equally valuable at this point. And while Pasta is the most valuable player for the Bruins Marchand and Bergeron are also really ****ing valuable.

watch out you may piss off the rantanen stans who think hes actually a superstar on his own and not a product of mack

 

[Regal]

.

What I’m saying is that a regular season award should have nothing to do with the playoffs.

I don't get this line of thinking. What happens in the playoffs and making the playoffs are two separate things. Making the playoffs is the goal of the regular season and is based off how your team does in the regular season, so it already doesn't have anything to do with what happens in the playoffs. If your team has 96 points one year and makes the playoffs and 100 points the next and just misses, you don't consider it a better year because your team had more points.

 

[nbwingsfan]

WAR and RAPM adjust for contextual factors that raw rates and on ice numbers dont/cant adjust for.

And you used to live by your old “stats” too which led you to believe Kase is a top 5 player.
Maybe you should actually watch a hockey game instead?

 

[Holkoun]

The one element that may in fact hurt McDavid and Drai is voters not knowing who to vote for.

Maybe i'm forgetting a season - but the last time i can remember two teammates dominating atop the league as much as those two are this season was Lemieux/Jagr in 96. Now - I love Jagr - but in my mind if I had a vote it's 100% Lemieux. He's the better of the 2, he was seen as the leader/better player, and he also produced more that season.

In this case - McDavid is seen as the better player/center/leader above Drai. But Drai is having the slightly better season - maybe soon to be by a good gap too, if McDavid misses enough time. So who do voters vote for?

There's probably an inherent bias to favor McDavid over Drai, but based on games missed/scoring race many voters may end up preferring Drai, or being split. I'm not saying they should penalize McDavid or Drai because they have each other and choose to vote Mack. I'm saying if i'm a voter - i don't know that i'd vote both Oiler players ahead of everyone else. I'd likely pick 1 Oiler first, 1 Non-Oiler 2nd, and maybe an Oiler again in 3rd, or 4th place, to try and spread my votes around. And if half the voters vote McDavid first, and the other half vote Drai first, and the majority vote Mack 2nd or 3rd - Mack could still end up winning if McD and Drai split the votes.

You call McDavid/drai as the domination? You better check your vocabulary. Mario/Jaromir's domination in 96 was totalky different story

 

[yababy]

Game winning goals this year

draisaitl 9 (league leader)
Mackinnon 4

 

[aufheben]

.

I don't get this line of thinking. What happens in the playoffs and making the playoffs are two separate things. Making the playoffs is the goal of the regular season and is based off how your team does in the regular season, so it already doesn't have anything to do with what happens in the playoffs. If your team has 96 points one year and makes the playoffs and 100 points the next and just misses, you don't consider it a better year because your team had more points.

It just doesn’t sit right with me that if Luongo played like 1-2 more games for the Panthers in 2017-18, they would have overtaken the Devils for the last WC spot, and Hall would have gone from winning the Hart trophy to likely not even finishing top-3 in voting. The implication that regular season accomplishments are worthless if you miss the playoffs bothers me too. It’s not Jack Eichel’s fault the rest of his team sucks, and a season like he’s having should be more appreciated. The NHL just isn’t a league where a player can do it themselves, skaters only play at max 1/3 of the available ice-time in a full season, and goalies can’t score goals.

Honestly they should just make a second Hart trophy for MVPs that miss the playoffs. Name it after some other historic player. IMO players should be ranked in the order of wins contributed to their teams, maybe then compare that to the combined wins contributed by their teammates. Honestly if it just goes to the Art Ross winner every year, so what? Why shouldn't it? Forwards are the most valuable players, and there's nothing more valuable than scoring (except of course preventing scoring but goalies have to have miraculous seasons to win a Hart trophy).