Pre-Game Talk: The All Purpose Off Day Thread | Because 60 Minutes Just Isn't Enough

[Empoleon8771]

How is he Sullivan's pet?

He's given way more leash to make mistakes than some other players on the roster. He's not at Sheary's level, but he has a lot of room for error without getting benched or demoted.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He's given way more leash to make mistakes than some other players on the roster. He's not at Sheary's level, but he has a lot of room for error without getting benched or demoted.

He has been both benched and demoted this year. I don't see it.

 

[Andy99]

I feel like if the organization wouldn't also have Sprong, people here would love Simon

He's Sullivan's pet (not as much as Sheary was and Rust is, though), but the real ire towards him is that people feel like he's taking away Sprong's opportunity. I'm hesitant with Simon, I did really like him as a prospect and have been happy with what he has done in the NHL so far, but I'm still hesitant. I'm not sure he's going to be anything more than a 3rd line playmaker.

Well, it took him 3 years to develop in the A and he’s not really a goalscorer....imo, the only reason not to like him is precisely because he’s “Sullivan’s pet” (see Kuhn)....most NHL coaches, Sully included, deplore creativity and celebrate the hard-working earnest players....

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, it took him 3 years to develop in the A and he’s not really a goalscorer....imo, the only reason not to like him is precisely because he’s “Sullivan’s pet” (see Kuhn)....most NHL coaches, Sully included, deplore creativity and celebrate the hard-working earnest players....

But Simon is creative.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

He's given way more leash to make mistakes than some other players on the roster. He's not at Sheary's level, but he has a lot of room for error without getting benched or demoted.

In the short run no, i.e he get benched the next shift if he does something terrible or demoted during the game. In the long run you are correct, since he is put back in position to succeed.

 

[Ogrezilla]

In the short run no, i.e he get benched the next shift if he does something terrible or demoted during the game. In the long run you are correct, since he is put back in position to succeed.

Playing our weakest position helps with that.

 

[Andy99]

But Simon is creative.

Not really...see Geno, Phil and Sid...but Simon can certainly stand in front of the goalie and shoot into net and he makes the occasional nice pass...

 

[Tom Hanks]

He's given way more leash to make mistakes than some other players on the roster. He's not at Sheary's level, but he has a lot of room for error without getting benched or demoted.

He’s 10th in ATOI for forwards. He’s earnt his time this season.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Not really...see Geno, Phil and Sid...but Simon can certainly stand in front of the goalie and shoot into net and he makes the occasional nice pass...

If Sid, Geno, and Phil are your benchmarks for creativity then sure Simon isn't creative. But he's the 3rd most creative winger on the team behind Kessel and Guentzel imo.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He has been both benched and demoted this year. I don't see it.

I never said he didn't get benched or demoted, he just has way more rope to make mistakes than other players. Like I said, it wasn't Sheary level, but Simon gets a healthy amount of leash before getting demoted or benched. 78% of his ice time in the last 2 years has been with Crosby, Malkin and Brassard and 85% of his ice time has been with the Penguins in the top-9.

He’s 10th in ATOI for forwards. He’s earnt his time this season.

He also has spent 88% of his ice time with centers not named Cullen, Grant and Rowney.

 

[Peat]

How is he Sullivan's pet?

Because every time Sully thinks a guy should get more rope than the consensus does, that means he's a pet/favourite/toy.

I feel like if the organization wouldn't also have Sprong, people here would love Simon

He's Sullivan's pet (not as much as Sheary was and Rust is, though), but the real ire towards him is that people feel like he's taking away Sprong's opportunity. I'm hesitant with Simon, I did really like him as a prospect and have been happy with what he has done in the NHL so far, but I'm still hesitant. I'm not sure he's going to be anything more than a 3rd line playmaker.

Simon has far more potential as a top 6 complimentary piece than as a 3rd line playmaker imo. He's reliant on other guys creating space and opportunity - which he'll get more of in the top 6 - and I think his off the puck work is better at retrieving pucks than getting them to go in. Certainly, if he's good and consistent enough to make it as a 3rd line playmaker, he has enough traits that work as a complimentary player that he'll work in that role as well, and right now the Pens need the complimentary player more than the 3rd liner.

And here I think is one of the big beefs people have with him. He has the whiff of a complimentary player and a lot of people hate complimentary players with the big guns. They want to surround them with raw talent, only slightly less sparkling than Sid and Geno, and grouse at how we've wasted parts of their careers by giving them plugs. They may have a point with the latter part of that, but a good complimentary player is more than that and frankly as long as I've been watching, the complimentary players have done just as well with Sid & Geno as guys like Kessel or Guentzel have done on the average (obviously there's been some absurd bursts).

At least Simon is a talented complimentary player.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I never said he didn't get benched or demoted, he just has way more rope to make mistakes than other players. Like I said, it wasn't Sheary level, but Simon gets a healthy amount of leash before getting demoted or benched. 78% of his ice time in the last 2 years has been with Crosby, Malkin and Brassard and 85% of his ice time has been with the Penguins in the top-9.

because we have a lack of LW's and he's playing well, not because he's anybody's pet. When you make fewer mistakes, you get more slack for the ones you do make.

 

[Peat]

If Sid, Geno, and Phil are your benchmarks for creativity then sure Simon isn't creative. But he's the 3rd most creative winger on the team behind Kessel and Guentzel imo.

And neither is 98% of the NHL. Any standard that says Simon isn't a creative player in the NHL is too high to be usable.

 

[Empoleon8771]

because we have a lack of LW's and he's playing well, not because he's anybody's pet.

He was constantly playing top-9 minutes last year when he wasn't playing or producing nearly as well last year. He has actually played more on the 4th line this year than he did last year already.

I don't know why it's such a problem to say that Simon is one of Sullivan's favorites. He plays with Crosby over 60% of the time, despite Crosby already having a great LW complement in Guentzel and Simon not proving anything in the NHL prior to playing with Crosby.

Simon has far more potential as a top 6 complimentary piece than as a 3rd line playmaker imo. He's reliant on other guys creating space and opportunity - which he'll get more of in the top 6 - and I think his off the puck work is better at retrieving pucks than getting them to go in. Certainly, if he's good and consistent enough to make it as a 3rd line playmaker, he has enough traits that work as a complimentary player that he'll work in that role as well, and right now the Pens need the complimentary player more than the 3rd liner.

And here I think is one of the big beefs people have with him. He has the whiff of a complimentary player and a lot of people hate complimentary players with the big guns. They want to surround them with raw talent, only slightly less sparkling than Sid and Geno, and grouse at how we've wasted parts of their careers by giving them plugs. They may have a point with the latter part of that, but a good complimentary player is more than that and frankly as long as I've been watching, the complimentary players have done just as well with Sid & Geno as guys like Kessel or Guentzel have done on the average (obviously there's been some absurd bursts).

At least Simon is a talented complimentary player.

I don't see Simon in the top-6 as a problem, I'd just consider him more of a 3rd liner who works in the top-6 than an actual top-6 winger. He's in a similar situation to Sheary with that regard. I also don't agree that Simon can't drive offense, that's actually something I think he does well. Without Crosby, Malkin, Brassard or Kessel on the ice (meaning he's playing with Sheahan or less), he has 5 primary points in like 110 minutes. That's pretty damn good. He's not Sprong, who won't provide any offense if you play him with skill-less players. Simon can create offense, that has never been a weak part of his game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He was constantly playing top-9 minutes last year when he wasn't playing or producing nearly as well last year. He has actually played more on the 4th line this year than he did last year already.

I don't know why it's such a problem to say that Simon is one of Sullivan's favorites.

Because it's baseless. I mean, who is he getting more leash than? I assume everyone saying this just means Sprong, because it's certainly not Guentzel, Hagelin, Rust, Kessel, or Hornqvist. So Sprong then. Simon gets more leash than Sprong because he's been a better NHL player every time the two have been given opportunities. And again, he's had an easier time finding a top 9 position because we literally only have 2 other top 9 LW's. So no shit Simon is going to get more top 9 time.

It's fair to say Sully doesn't dislike him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because it's baseless. I mean, who is he getting more leash than? I assume everyone saying this just means Sprong, because it's certainly not Guentzel, Hagelin, Rust, Kessel, or Hornqvist. So Sprong then. Simon gets more leash than Sprong because he's been a better NHL player every time the two have been given opportunities. And again, he's gotten an easier time finding a top 9 position because we have literally only have 2 other top 9 LW's. So no **** Simon is going to get more top 9 time.

Simon has earned more leash than Sprong. It's that simple.

Simon has spent over 60% of his career playing with Sidney Crosby. He went immediately from the AHL to playing with Crosby a huge proportion of the time, and didn't produce like others who made that jump (namely Guentzel and Sheary). The Penguins are weak on LW this year, but they weren't last year and Simon played even a higher percentage with Crosby last year than he has this year. I don't see how it's baseless at all. Simon has done really well in the role this year and has been producing well, but let's not ignore how he was gifted top line minutes last season despite not really doing anything to deserve them. If that isn't being a favorite of Sullivan, then I don't know what it is.

I'm looking at what he did last year and I can't come up with a legitimate reason for why he immediately jumped to Crosby's line and spent 71% of his ice time with Crosby last season. He has been used really well this year and Sullivan has used him a lot better, I just can't come up with a reason for why he was given so much leash last year.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Simon has spent over 60% of his career playing with Sidney Crosby. He went immediately from the AHL to playing with Crosby a huge proportion of the time, and didn't produce like others who made that jump (namely Guentzel and Sheary). The Penguins are weak on LW this year, but they weren't last year and Simon played even a higher percentage with Crosby last year than he has this year. I don't see how it's baseless at all. Simon has done really well in the role this year and has been producing well, but let's not ignore how he was gifted top line minutes last season despite not really doing anything to deserve them. If that isn't being a favorite of Sullivan, then I don't know what it is.

I'm looking at what he did last year and I can't come up with a legitimate reason for why he immediately jumped to Crosby's line and spent 71% of his ice time with Crosby last season. He has been used really well this year and Sullivan has used him a lot better, I just can't come up with a reason for why he was given so much leash last year.

He still didn’t play a lot of minutes though. He was 12th in ATOI last year at 11:25. Doesn’t scream Sully’s pet. He was at a reasonable 30 point pace too for a rookie with low minutes.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Simon has spent over 60% of his career playing with Sidney Crosby. He went immediately from the AHL to playing with Crosby a huge proportion of the time, and didn't produce like others who made that jump (namely Guentzel and Sheary). The Penguins are weak on LW this year, but they weren't last year and Simon played even a higher percentage with Crosby last year than he has this year. I don't see how it's baseless at all. Simon has done really well in the role this year and has been producing well, but let's not ignore how he was gifted top line minutes last season despite not really doing anything to deserve them. If that isn't being a favorite of Sullivan, then I don't know what it is.

I'm looking at what he did last year and I can't come up with a legitimate reason for why he immediately jumped to Crosby's line and spent 71% of his ice time with Crosby last season. He has been used really well this year and Sullivan has used him a lot better, I just can't come up with a reason for why he was given so much leash last year.

Sprong also immediately jumped to Crosby's line last year. I honestly don't remember the exact circumstances, but Simon and Sprong were both up and playing with Sid at the same time. Simon stayed up because he was playing better.

 

[Pancakes]

I feel like if the organization wouldn't also have Sprong, people here would love Simon

He's Sullivan's pet (not as much as Sheary was and Rust is, though), but the real ire towards him is that people feel like he's taking away Sprong's opportunity. I'm hesitant with Simon, I did really like him as a prospect and have been happy with what he has done in the NHL so far, but I'm still hesitant. I'm not sure he's going to be anything more than a 3rd line playmaker.

However you feel about how Simon is treated by Sully you can't deny he's earned his ice time this year.

It'd be nice if Sprong were given the same opportunity though.

 

[Peat]

I don't know why it's such a problem to say that Simon is one of Sullivan's favorites.

Because its mostly used in a derogatory fashion to downplay what he's done. But I guess that overall, yeah, its pretty obvious Sully rates him as a player. His quotes make that clear.

I don't see Simon in the top-6 as a problem, I'd just consider him more of a 3rd liner who works in the top-6 than an actual top-6 winger. He's in a similar situation to Sheary with that regard. I also don't agree that Simon can't drive offense, that's actually something I think he does well. Without Crosby, Malkin, Brassard or Kessel on the ice (meaning he's playing with Sheahan or less), he has 5 primary points in like 110 minutes. That's pretty damn good. He's not Sprong, who won't provide any offense if you play him with skill-less players. Simon can create offense, that has never been a weak part of his game.

I've never liked that distinction - if you're in the top 6 getting the output you're a top 6er in my book - but fair enough. In any case, I'm arguing more about usage than talent level - for me, Sheary looked far comfier being a driving force on a 3rd line than Simon has to date. Although I'd missed those stats and if true, good on him, that's great progress.

My two big concerns about Simon in the summer was his tendency to go full Letang in his own zone and the fact he'd never shown much away from Sid. Haven't seen him do the first all that often and looks like he's working on the second. I'm tentatively preparing my certificate of Real Deal for him.

Simon has spent over 60% of his career playing with Sidney Crosby. He went immediately from the AHL to playing with Crosby a huge proportion of the time, and didn't produce like others who made that jump (namely Guentzel and Sheary). The Penguins are weak on LW this year, but they weren't last year and Simon played even a higher percentage with Crosby last year than he has this year. I don't see how it's baseless at all. Simon has done really well in the role this year and has been producing well, but let's not ignore how he was gifted top line minutes last season despite not really doing anything to deserve them. If that isn't being a favorite of Sullivan, then I don't know what it is.

I'm looking at what he did last year and I can't come up with a legitimate reason for why he immediately jumped to Crosby's line and spent 71% of his ice time with Crosby last season. He has been used really well this year and Sullivan has used him a lot better, I just can't come up with a reason for why he was given so much leash last year.

Fit. His strengths are the things Sid wants most in a linemate. He got an earlier shout than he might have otherwise because they needed to jumpstart Sid (although quite a few kids have got very early promotions to the top 6 recently) and he took it and ran with it. He might not have done the individual production but the line was like a buzzsaw in January and clearly Sully (and Sid) reckoned he contributed. They went cold post-January, but from then on Simon only got about half of his time with Sid (and also went back to WBS once, nothing to change a scoring prospect from mainly top 6 to "where ever" like losing his waiver exemption). The bulk of their time together came on that hot run.

 

[KIRK]

Sprong also immediately jumped to Crosby's line last year. I honestly don't remember the exact circumstances, but Simon and Sprong were both up and playing with Sid at the same time. Simon stayed up because he was playing better.

Sprong had a 3 point game but otherwise was blanked in a 7 game stretch with Sid.

That said, Sid was not playing well through December last season you may recall, and his play definitely picked up when put with the Simon-Sprong combo. Sid had 3 goals and 9 assists in that stretch, although half the points were on the PP.

BUT, he had 6 points in 11 games going into that stretch, and only 2 of those points came at ES.

After Sprong was moved, Sid pretty much kept it up.

That said, I still want to see him with Malkin.

If Sprong is a bust, then he's a bust. BUT, I can't see why an organization should make that declaration without putting Sprong in the one place he's most likely to succeed with the one center with whom he's most naturally and stylistically suited to play.

That said, SHOULD isn't what WILL happen.

 

[UnrealMachine]

- Simon has the 3rd highest 5on5 P/60 among Penguins forwards this year at 3.25. He has 6 primary assists and 0 secondary assists.
- While his numbers are certainly boosted while playing with Sid, so are Sid's playing with Simon.
- Last 2 seasons Sid w & w/o Simon @ 5on5: CF% = 60.0/54.5, SCF% = 60.6/53.2, GF% = 67.7/45.8.
- Why are we trying to replace him exactly?!?

 

[Ogrezilla]

- Simon has the 3rd highest 5on5 P/60 among Penguins forwards this year at 3.25. He has 6 primary assists and 0 secondary assists.
- While his numbers are certainly boosted while playing with Sid, so are Sid's playing with Simon.
- Last 2 seasons Sid w & w/o Simon @ 5on5: CF% = 60.0/54.5, SCF% = 60.6/53.2, GF% = 67.7/45.8.
- Why are we trying to replace him exactly?!?

He also scored 4 of his 10 points without Sid, so it's not like he's just a product of Sid. The kid's just playing good hockey.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Saw some numbers in a Mackey article that suggest what the eye test is showing me with Riikola- not many goals are scored agt him when he’s out there:

Riikola has been on the ice for just four goals-against in 121:00 of five-on-five ice time, which translates to a goals-against-per-60 mark of 1.98. That’s second-best on the team behind Kris Letang.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Saw some numbers in a Mackey article that suggest what the eye test is showing me with Riikola- not many goals are scored agt him when he’s out there:

Yeah I go on Hockey Reference often and saw that number. Not to positive in the goals for @ 0.5 (so 2 ES) but we generally don’t have problems scoring. However we do at stopping them.

He should definitely be playing.