TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

[Blender]

If anyone is interested, there was a recent episode of the Inglorious Treksperts (A Star Trek podcast) in which they discussed a ST movie script that never got made.

It's called Star Trek: The Beginning



This is the movie (actually a trilogy) that was scrapped by Paramount in favor of Abram's 2009 ST film. It's about Tiberius Chase, the formation of the Federation, and the Earth-Romulan war.

Erik Jendresen, who wrote Band of Brothers, penned the script. He's interviewed in the podcast and it's fascinating listening to him discuss it. He didn't want to work on it initially, he didn't like science fiction and didn't know much about Star Trek. But as he delved into it and began researching the franchise he fell in love with it. You can hear the passion in him when he talks about the script.

The script has many compelling plot points. Unlike ST: Picard it deals with xenophobia intelligently and in a way that makes sense. There's some humor in it too; a Vulcan watches some 20th century Earth science fiction.

The interesting thing is that Paramount still owns the script. We know they're trying to figure out what to do with Star Trek, maybe they'll take another look at it.

Interesting. Sounds like Jendresen was sort of like Nicholas Meyer in that regard with The Wrath of Khan. Meyer wasn't a Star Trek fan and had never seen the series, but he respected it and before writing TWOK he sat down and watched every episode of TOS so he could have a deep understanding the franchise he was about to make a movie about. Next thing you know he wrote the three best Star Trek movies there are and directed two of them...

 

[The Nemesis]

Tried watching episode 2. It's not getting any better. The main character is irredeemably awful and the "jokes" are mostly just making Trek references while the characters do stupid things that don't fit.

There are exactly 2 things in this series that might actually be good

1) the title sequence

2) The two non-main-character ensigns (the cyborg guy and the Orion girl) might actually be interesting if they were the focus instead of the two idiots.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

To me its a one trick pony series, and after the first one where they went after some things in especially TNG universe, namely that everyone doesn't get a luxury appartment, and that the command crew are glory hogs that really don't care about the rest of the crew. They promptly ran out of ideas and the two main characters are just going to be the same episode after episode after episode.

Even the jokes that they do run now, the alien and the wallet, the drunken Klingon, they're not new, they feel fairly worn out even as they tell the jokes. I think to watch this show and like it, you have to look for one or two nuggets that are funny per show, and just kind ignore the rest.

 

[Blender]

Tried watching episode 2. It's not getting any better. The main character is irredeemably awful and the "jokes" are mostly just making Trek references while the characters do stupid things that don't fit.

There are exactly 2 things in this series that might actually be good

1) the title sequence

2) The two non-main-character ensigns (the cyborg guy and the Orion girl) might actually be interesting if they were the focus instead of the two idiots.

I watched the 2nd episode, and I'm done. Still nothing has been funny, and the two main characters are beyond awful. Probably the two worst main characters in all of Star Trek.

Rutherford and Tendi are good characters at their core, they seem like they belong in the Star Trek universe, and if the show was centered around them with a few better jokes I think it might actually work, but as it sits the two mains are awful and would never have even made it to a ship acting like they do. I actually thought in both episode 1 and 2 the B-plot was way better than the A-plot, especially in episode 2. We got a nice story of Rutherford trying to adjust his schedule so he can hang out with Tendi by trying every department on the ship, where his department heads were very supportive and encouraging of his desire to find the department where he fits, and in the end just goes back to engineering, and Tendi just hangs out where he is instead. That's a story that could have worked in any Star Trek series, unlike the A-plot with Boimler and Mariner which was beyond terrible.

 

[The Nemesis]

I watched the 2nd episode, and I'm done. Still nothing has been funny, and the two main characters are beyond awful. Probably the two worst main characters in all of Star Trek.

Rutherford and Tendi are good characters at their core, they seem like they belong in the Star Trek universe, and if the show was centered around them with a few better jokes I think it might actually work, but as it sits the two mains are awful and would never have even made it to a ship acting like they do. I actually thought in both episode 1 and 2 the B-plot was way better than the A-plot, especially in episode 2. We got a nice story of Rutherford trying to adjust his schedule so he can hang out with Tendi by trying every department on the ship, where his department heads were very supportive and encouraging of his desire to find the department where he fits, and in the end just goes back to engineering, and Tendi just hangs out where he is instead. That's a story that could have worked in any Star Trek series, unlike the A-plot with Boimler and Mariner which was beyond terrible.

I agree, the B plot was far more entertaining. It was a very "Lower Decks" plot in the vein of the original TNG episode to have Rutherford trying to figure out if he can fit into the other departments and to just deal with the day-to-day lives of a pair of friends dealing with mundane issues like conflicting work schedules. And the two of them feel like proper types you'd get at the low end of the Starfleet totem pole as the niche-interest keener and the excited "being a starfleet officer is a big adventure full of science and mystery and interesting stuff" newbie.

The other two stand out more and make it worse because they are basically contrary to the very idea that spawned this series. For as how that purports to be about the daily misadventures of the crew on the bottom rung of the command/operations structure of an unimportant ship (and therefore supposedly the least exposed to the most 'out there' aspects of space exploration and Trek life), for two episodes in a row Boimler and Mariner have gotten into crazy fantastic adventures that push out about as zany as they can get. Even the minor throwaway joke from the start of the episode with Mariner and Tendi encountering the energy being. In any normal Trek episode, encountering some "magical" wish-granting, reality-warping energy consciousness is a significant and plot-carrying thread that is treated like a big event. But just because they have to justify that these crew members are nobodies on a nothing ship, they treat it like a cheap meaningless gag so that Mariner can use the power selfishly for something bland like a new tricorder "with a purple stripe".

It makes it seem like the writers couldn't make it out of outlining their first draft of the pilot before they broke the mold of what the series concept was about, and they figured that since the show is animated they should use it to tell Family Guy/Rick & Morty style jokes that push things to their craziest because the medium has no restrictions like live action does.


A lower decks comedy should be like The Office or Parks & Recreation, but in Starfleet. Or the more "ordinary" parts of Futurama that use the potential of the future space setting to play up more "regular" issues for comedy. Instead we get WACKY WACKY WACKY WACKY starring over-the-top idiots.

And I agree that the two leads would probably not cut it in Starfleet outside of a comedy show. Well, maybe Boimler would as a forever-ensign who constantly believes he's capable of more than he is because his ambition outstrips his ability (think Rimmer in Red Dwarf), but I think we're supposed to believe that Mariner gets latitude and preferential treatment because her parents are an admiral and a captain and that the only reason she's even on the Cerritos is because it's her mother's ship. But there's no way that she should be able to get away with being as much of a don't-give-a-f*** troublemaker as she is without being drummed out of the service. And it makes her totally unsympathetic as a result (And no, a few seconds in each episode to try and show that she's doing it to be a good mentor to Boimler doesn't count)

At least not in the world before Michael Burnham made it OK to be convicted of mutiny that led to your captain being killed and then get back to command-level rank and responsibility within a year.

 

[Blender]

I agree, the B plot was far more entertaining. It was a very "Lower Decks" plot in the vein of the original TNG episode to have Rutherford trying to figure out if he can fit into the other departments and to just deal with the day-to-day lives of a pair of friends dealing with mundane issues like conflicting work schedules. And the two of them feel like proper types you'd get at the low end of the Starfleet totem pole as the niche-interest keener and the excited "being a starfleet officer is a big adventure full of science and mystery and interesting stuff" newbie.

The other two stand out more and make it worse because they are basically contrary to the very idea that spawned this series. For as how that purports to be about the daily misadventures of the crew on the bottom rung of the command/operations structure of an unimportant ship (and therefore supposedly the least exposed to the most 'out there' aspects of space exploration and Trek life), for two episodes in a row Boimler and Mariner have gotten into crazy fantastic adventures that push out about as zany as they can get. Even the minor throwaway joke from the start of the episode with Mariner and Tendi encountering the energy being. In any normal Trek episode, encountering some "magical" wish-granting, reality-warping energy consciousness is a significant and plot-carrying thread that is treated like a big event. But just because they have to justify that these crew members are nobodies on a nothing ship, they treat it like a cheap meaningless gag so that Mariner can use the power selfishly for something bland like a new tricorder "with a purple stripe".

It makes it seem like the writers couldn't make it out of outlining their first draft of the pilot before they broke the mold of what the series concept was about, and they figured that since the show is animated they should use it to tell Family Guy/Rick & Morty style jokes that push things to their craziest because the medium has no restrictions like live action does.


A lower decks comedy should be like The Office or Parks & Recreation, but in Starfleet. Or the more "ordinary" parts of Futurama that use the potential of the future space setting to play up more "regular" issues for comedy. Instead we get WACKY WACKY WACKY WACKY starring over-the-top idiots.

And I agree that the two leads would probably not cut it in Starfleet outside of a comedy show. Well, maybe Boimler would as a forever-ensign who constantly believes he's capable of more than he is because his ambition outstrips his ability (think Rimmer in Red Dwarf), but I think we're supposed to believe that Mariner gets latitude and preferential treatment because her parents are an admiral and a captain and that the only reason she's even on the Cerritos is because it's her mother's ship. But there's no way that she should be able to get away with being as much of a don't-give-a-f*** troublemaker as she is without being drummed out of the service. And it makes her totally unsympathetic as a result (And no, a few seconds in each episode to try and show that she's doing it to be a good mentor to Boimler doesn't count)

At least not in the world before Michael Burnham made it OK to be convicted of mutiny that led to your captain being killed and then get back to command-level rank and responsibility within a year.

The situation with Mariner, and to a different degree Burnham and Star Trek 2009 Kirk, is very anti-Trek. The world of Star Trek is supposed to be a brutal meritocracy where people rise and fall by their own abilities and drive, it's supposed to be a future where things like nepotism and unequal opportunity have been removed from society. Captain Kirk in TOS was in the position he was at a pretty young age because he was exceptional at his job and had quickly risen through the ranks to get there with his hard work, book knowledge, and drive. Captain Kirk in Star Trek 2009 is made captain because it's his destiny and he's Luke Skywalker. Mariner gets a free pass because her mother is a captain and her father an admiral despite not being able to function under a command hierarchy and doing things that would get you kicked out of Starfleet. Contrast that with Tom Paris whose father was an admiral and he still got kicked out of Starfleet for lying, and his character development was about growing as a person not getting handouts from his father.

I honestly just wish the show had cut out the A-plots completely and ran with the B-plots as the show. The characters are way better, and just more interesting overall.

 

[The Nemesis]

Contrast that with Tom Paris whose father was an admiral and he still got kicked out of Starfleet for lying, and his character development was about growing as a person not getting handouts from his father.

Consider that the original pitch for Paris was that he was originally supposed to be Robert Duncan MacNeil's other character from TNG, Nicholas Locarno. But the writers decided to switch him into being an original character because they felt that Locarno's actions and attitude made him irredeemable as a character and that the audience wouldn't be able to sympathize with him or look past his actions to even give him a chance to grow or develop. Tom Paris is essentially Locarno with his worst traits excised or toned down and without the baggage so that he'll actually be given a real chance.

His crimes were that he was over-ambitious and reckless to the point that it caused an accident that killed a cadet and that he conspired to cover it up out of a sense of raw self-interest.

Now consider that while we haven't seen Mariner do something that got another person killed, she displays the same "screw the rules, I do what I want and only care about me" attitude 95% of the time, but she apparently has had chance after chance after chance after chance culminating in her being on the Cerritos as a presumable concession to the strings her parents can pull. And we're now supposed to identify with her and like her as the main character with the only concession being that she gets like 45 seconds in each of the first two episodes to show that she wants to look out for Boimler and help him succeed.

I also saw some reviews that point out that the show doesn't really have a proper voice and niche. It's too childish and dumb for adults, too adult for kids, and too much based off a property that doesn't appeal to teens for the Rick & Morty core audience to be attracted to.

It's like a show for millennial teens that would've legitimately grown up on 1st run TNG/DS9/Voyager that's been made more than a decade too late.

 

[Blender]

Consider that the original pitch for Paris was that he was originally supposed to be Robert Duncan MacNeil's other character from TNG, Nicholas Locarno. But the writers decided to switch him into being an original character because they felt that Locarno's actions and attitude made him irredeemable as a character and that the audience wouldn't be able to sympathize with him or look past his actions to even give him a chance to grow or develop. Tom Paris is essentially Locarno with his worst traits excised or toned down and without the baggage so that he'll actually be given a real chance.

His crimes were that he was over-ambitious and reckless to the point that it caused an accident that killed a cadet and that he conspired to cover it up out of a sense of raw self-interest.

Now consider that while we haven't seen Mariner do something that got another person killed, she displays the same "screw the rules, I do what I want and only care about me" attitude 95% of the time, but she apparently has had chance after chance after chance after chance culminating in her being on the Cerritos as a presumable concession to the strings her parents can pull. And we're now supposed to identify with her and like her as the main character with the only concession being that she gets like 45 seconds in each of the first two episodes to show that she wants to look out for Boimler and help him succeed.

I also saw some reviews that point out that the show doesn't really have a proper voice and niche. It's too childish and dumb for adults, too adult for kids, and too much based off a property that doesn't appeal to teens for the Rick & Morty core audience to be attracted to.

It's like a show for millennial teens that would've legitimately grown up on 1st run TNG/DS9/Voyager that's been made more than a decade too late.

I don't know, I kind of find the suggestion that this was even aimed at kids/teens insulting. I loved TNG as a kid and it didn't treat me like an idiot or someone that loves fart jokes.

 

[HolyGhost]

Just Re-watched TWOK--still great

 

[The Nemesis]

I don't know, I kind of find the suggestion that this was even aimed at kids/teens insulting. I loved TNG as a kid and it didn't treat me like an idiot or someone that loves fart jokes.

It's not aimed at kids. It's clearly meant to be aimed at an audience that is nominally more adult, but ends up attracting a teen audience who thinks that the fart/sex/blood jokes are edgy and cool. It's like the lowest common denominator part of the Family Guy audience. I think the issue is that the audience that likes that stuff now won't have grown up with Star Trek enough to invest in all the Trek trappings of this show while the audience that grew up with Star Trek and also liked those sorts of comedies as a teen/20-something is older now and doesn't laugh at those same jokes anymore (and if they did watch shows with gross-out or edgy humor like FG or South Park it was often because underneath all the crass stuff there was usually something clever.)

This show is like a more Trek-attuned version of those Seltzer and Frieberg "_______ movie" parody films where it's clear the writers just watched the trailers to a bunch of popular movies and then shoved lazy riffs on them into the movie itself (date movie, superhero movie, disaster movie, epic movie, etc) while thinking that the mild, wry laugh you elicit from making a knowing reference is equal to a genuine laugh at something that's actually funny.

One example I didn't mention before was where Rutherford is in the training sim and the first officer makes a reference to the "Janeway protocol" or whatever it was. I get that it's mocking Voyager's tendency to get involved with temporal anomolies and time travel shenanigans and whatever, but if you're going to make that reference it has to make sense. They could've made a "Picard maneuver" reference and it would've worked because the franchise went out of its way to explain what that is at one point (they could've even made it a meta-joke if the FO suggests the Picard maneuver and Rutherford proceeds to stand up and adjust his uniform top in the next run through, referencing the behind-the-scenes/fandom definition of the term). But instead they do the Janeway joke and wait for the audience to go "I know that name! Isn't it clever that they said the thing about the stuff I remember from other Star Trek shows I enjoyed watching? What a great show this is for reminding me that I could be watching other, better Star Trek instead!"

 

[Blender]

It's not aimed at kids. It's clearly meant to be aimed at an audience that is nominally more adult, but ends up attracting a teen audience who thinks that the fart/sex/blood jokes are edgy and cool. It's like the lowest common denominator part of the Family Guy audience. I think the issue is that the audience that likes that stuff now won't have grown up with Star Trek enough to invest in all the Trek trappings of this show while the audience that grew up with Star Trek and also liked those sorts of comedies as a teen/20-something is older now and doesn't laugh at those same jokes anymore (and if they did watch shows with gross-out or edgy humor like FG or South Park it was often because underneath all the crass stuff there was usually something clever.)

This show is like a more Trek-attuned version of those Seltzer and Frieberg "_______ movie" parody films where it's clear the writers just watched the trailers to a bunch of popular movies and then shoved lazy riffs on them into the movie itself (date movie, superhero movie, disaster movie, epic movie, etc) while thinking that the mild, wry laugh you elicit from making a knowing reference is equal to a genuine laugh at something that's actually funny.

One example I didn't mention before was where Rutherford is in the training sim and the first officer makes a reference to the "Janeway protocol" or whatever it was. I get that it's mocking Voyager's tendency to get involved with temporal anomolies and time travel shenanigans and whatever, but if you're going to make that reference it has to make sense. They could've made a "Picard maneuver" reference and it would've worked because the franchise went out of its way to explain what that is at one point (they could've even made it a meta-joke if the FO suggests the Picard maneuver and Rutherford proceeds to stand up and adjust his uniform top in the next run through, referencing the behind-the-scenes/fandom definition of the term). But instead they do the Janeway joke and wait for the audience to go "I know that name! Isn't it clever that they said the thing about the stuff I remember from other Star Trek shows I enjoyed watching? What a great show this is for reminding me that I could be watching other, better Star Trek instead!"

Same with Mariner while sleeping started reciting Khan telling Kirk he is going to maroon him as well as if that is some kind of joke instead of just a pointless reference for nostalgia purposes. I just don't see where the joke is supposed to be in there, it's just a lazy reference.

 

[archangel2]

Consider that the original pitch for Paris was that he was originally supposed to be Robert Duncan MacNeil's other character from TNG, Nicholas Locarno. But the writers decided to switch him into being an original character because they felt that Locarno's actions and attitude made him irredeemable as a character and that the audience wouldn't be able to sympathize with him or look past his actions to even give him a chance to grow or develop. Tom Paris is essentially Locarno with his worst traits excised or toned down and without the baggage so that he'll actually be given a real chance.

His crimes were that he was over-ambitious and reckless to the point that it caused an accident that killed a cadet and that he conspired to cover it up out of a sense of raw self-interest.

Now consider that while we haven't seen Mariner do something that got another person killed, she displays the same "screw the rules, I do what I want and only care about me" attitude 95% of the time, but she apparently has had chance after chance after chance after chance culminating in her being on the Cerritos as a presumable concession to the strings her parents can pull. And we're now supposed to identify with her and like her as the main character with the only concession being that she gets like 45 seconds in each of the first two episodes to show that she wants to look out for Boimler and help him succeed.

I also saw some reviews that point out that the show doesn't really have a proper voice and niche. It's too childish and dumb for adults, too adult for kids, and too much based off a property that doesn't appeal to teens for the Rick & Morty core audience to be attracted to.

It's like a show for millennial teens that would've legitimately grown up on 1st run TNG/DS9/Voyager that's been made more than a decade too late.

The Paris character was created so the show would not have to pay royalties to people who created the TNG character. Just like on enterprise, T'pol was created so the creator of T'Pau would not have to get paid.

 

[The Nemesis]

The Paris character was created so the show would not have to pay royalties to people who created the TNG character. Just like on enterprise, T'pol was created so the creator of T'Pau would not have to get paid.

Someone, maybe it was MacNeill himself, also said that they wouldn't have wanted Tom to be Locarno because they didn't think he could be suitably redeemed after what he did in that TNG episode.

 

[Osprey]

Someone, maybe it was MacNeill himself, also said that they wouldn't have wanted Tom to be Locarno because they didn't think he could be suitably redeemed after what he did in that TNG episode.

That could just be the way that the writers and MacNeil justified it. It's a much nicer thing to believe and say than that it was done simply to rob a writer of royalties (and, on top of that, if they just came out and said that, that writer could complain to the guild and maybe end up with royalties, anyways). I don't doubt that there's a bit of truth to the redeemability excuse, but I imagine that it was secondary to the primary reason, which involved the thing that a lot of things boil down to (money).

 

[Blender]

That could just be the way that the writers and MacNeil justified it. It's a much nicer thing to believe and say than that it was done simply to rob a writer of royalties (and, on top of that, if they just came out and said that, that writer could complain to the guild and maybe end up with royalties, anyways). I don't doubt that there's a bit of truth to redeemability excuse, but I imagine that it was secondary to the primary reason, which involved the thing that a lot of things boil down to (money).

I would assume it's a bit of both. They likely started off with the Locarno character knowing they would have to pay for it, but creatively didn't think it was worth the money so they changed direction. They happily moved Miles O'Brien over to DS9 from TNG because they thought the character was great and that Colm Meaney was far too good of an actor for a limited role, and they were also planning on moving Ro Laren over to DS9 until Michelle Forbes decided she wasn't interested, so they created Kira Nerys.

 

[Osprey]

I would assume it's a bit of both. They likely started off with the Locarno character knowing they would have to pay for it, but creatively didn't think it was worth the money so they changed direction. They happily moved Miles O'Brien over to DS9 from TNG because they thought the character was great and that Colm Meaney was far too good of an actor for a limited role, and they were also planning on moving Ro Laren over to DS9 until Michelle Forbes decided she wasn't interested, so they created Kira Nerys.

In the case of O'Brien, Ro, Worf and other crossover characters, the royalties were well worth it because those characters were liked by fans and would help bring them over to the new shows. Here, we're talking about a character from a single episode, and not even a likable character. He wouldn't have moved the needle in bringing TNG fans to Voyager, so the royalties wouldn't have been worth it.

 

[Osprey]

I'm watching Episode 2 right now. I wish that I could be more disappointed, but I think that STD and STP have numbed me to bad Trek. I don't feel upset like I did when watching Season 1 of STD. This is just what I've come to expect from Star Trek nowadays, sadly.

I agree about the characters and plots. The subplot in this episode, with robot boy transferring around to different departments, was more watchable and felt more like Trek than the 'A' plot with the main characters. In fact, why are the two main characters piloting shuttle craft to alien worlds (on diplomatic assignments, no less) when they're the lowest crew members on the ship? It makes no sense.

 

[Osprey]

Same with Mariner while sleeping started reciting Khan telling Kirk he is going to maroon him as well as if that is some kind of joke instead of just a pointless reference for nostalgia purposes. I just don't see where the joke is supposed to be in there, it's just a lazy reference.

I probably wouldn't have gotten that reference if it hadn't been for you pointing it out... and I grew up with the original Trek movies, TWOK in particular. It seems to me that that reference is almost more of an easter egg, one of many for fans to pick out, discuss online and re-watch to find. In fact, I just remembered the videos that identified the dozens of easter eggs in each STP episode. It sure feels like Kurtzman (who, I imagine, is encouraging all of his writers to include them) has a thing for references and easter eggs and thinks that they either show that they know Trek or are what the fans want.

 

[Blender]

I probably wouldn't have gotten that reference if it hadn't been for you pointing it out... and I grew up with the original Trek movies, TWOK in particular. It seems to me that that reference is almost more of an easter egg, one of many for fans to pick out, discuss online and re-watch to find. In fact, I just remembered the videos that identified the dozens of easter eggs in each STP episode. It sure feels like Kurtzman (who, I imagine, is encouraging all of his writers to include them) has a thing for references and easter eggs and thinks that they either show that they know Trek or are what the fans want.

Anyone can go to the Star Trek wiki and look up references or quotes to write into their episode, but they clearly don't understand Star Trek. "Easter eggs" are the cheap and shallow kind of tie-in that I would expect from a hack like Kurtzman.

 

[Blender]

I wish they do more of these:

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I wish they do more of these:

God I love these guys, there love for Star Trek is so genuine.

One complaint though. I don't think we can "Cure" Asbergers.

 

[johnjm22]

I'm watching Episode 2 right now. I wish that I could be more disappointed, but I think that STD and STP have numbed me to bad Trek. I don't feel upset like I did when watching Season 1 of STD. This is just what I've come to expect from Star Trek nowadays, sadly.

No matter how low I set the bar for my expectations of nuTrek, they always find a way to still come up short.

I'm not being hyperbolic. It really is far worse than I ever could have imagined, and perhaps the worst prolonged iteration/universe out of any franchise I've ever seen.

You'd think they would have gotten lucky by now and actually made couple good episodes (of any of the new series), but they haven't even been able to do that. It's kind of remarkable.

 

[johnjm22]

There's so many good episodes of TNG that my top 5 almost doesn't overlap with Mike and Rich's at all with the exception of 'Cause and Effect'.

Mine in no particular order:
The Defector
Family
Data's Day
Cause and Effect
All Good Things

I also love 'Ship in a Bottle', 'Clues', 'Sins of The Father', 'Yesterday's Enterprise', 'In Theory' and more. Too many to list.

The whole Klingon story arc from 'The Emissary' to 'Redemption' is great. I love K'Ehleyr. A very strong and intense character with presence. If she was written today she would have been a bland boring character that would be good at everything.

 

[Blender]

There's so many good episodes of TNG that my top 5 almost doesn't overlap with Mike and Rich's at all with the exception of 'Cause and Effect'.

Mine in no particular order:
The Defector
Family
Data's Day
Cause and Effect
All Good Things

I also love 'Ship in a Bottle', 'Clues', 'Sins of The Father', 'Yesterday's Enterprise', 'In Theory' and more. Too many to list.

The whole Klingon story arc from 'The Emissary' to 'Redemption' is great. I love K'Ehleyr. A very strong and intense character with presence. If she was written today she would have been a bland boring character that would be good at everything.

I would put my top 5, also in no real order as:

The Wounded
Darmok
Who Watches the Watchers
The Inner Light
All Good Things

Tons of episodes I love though, and the list of episodes I dislike is not that long and mostly in season 1 or the low points of season 2.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I was watching Episode 2 last night and while I think I like the series more than you guys here, there was a scene that really irked me. It was basically Mariner stealing Boimler's assignment away from him. He's excited to have this assignment, to lead the away team and here comes Mariner swooping in and pretty much taking charge. It didn't help matters either that they portray Boimler has this incompetent idiot and Mariner as this loudmouth "My way or the highway" person. I'm trying not to think this show has any kind of agenda to it, but if I didn't know any better, I would think this show has an agenda to it.