The Advanced Stats Thread Episode IX

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
22,580
12,822
I agree, and re Trouba, I am not saying that at all. Just more or less repeating what Winnipeg fans were saying in the thread claiming they won that trade. Ie you can obviously make that argument.
Eh, I wouldn't put too much stock into what they have to say. The Trouba saga was a total pain in the ass for them, and I'd be pissed off too if we developed a top prospect into a first-pairing dman only for them to not want to stay in the organization. They got caught on the shitty end of the NHL being a business and a player looking out for his best interests. It happens sometimes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ola

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
More the "tired" bit. "Screaming into the wind" comes to mind. He let his leases on website go and decided to go dark on Twitter (tho he admittedly wasn't *too* active on it)

Also just enjoyed Giants football (god bless) and college basketball more than watching the Rangers FO squander the last of Hank's prime and then stumble through this rebuild. Which is totally understandable.

Hm, I thought he was the guy on Twitter with the initials Ad.He. who was destroying Pionk all of last season? With more followers than most beat writers?

Yikes, if that wasn’t him I wouldn’t have brought him up.

That guy is downright dangerous. That big following and views like that.

@Mac n Gs One thing, Pionk fell through at the end. But he certainly wasn’t horrible to start the year. He hit the ice and took a ton of responsibility and was used for over 25 min a night many nights as a result of it. Was he able to make his unit play well against the top units in the world in that role? Of course not. But I wonder if 5 Ds in the world would have accomplished that.

The trashing of Pionk started way before his game fell through at the end. JMHO, but I was really pissed off by how he was treated on social media. A young kid like that who obviously was thrown to the wolfs.

I shouldn’t take THAT out on posters at this place, but it’s one reason for why I am a bit annoyed about this topic.
 
Last edited:

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Yeah SF is not Adam Herman

Ah ok, then I apologize. Had him pegged as ‘fair game’ like Brooks and co, got that wrong.

Just for the record, he was one of the smartest posters at this place, but I think he looked too much at metrics and hence had a flawed view of some players. I didn’t at all like the way some of these kids on twitter with a huge amount of followers loves to rally fans against young kids put in a tough situation, and thought he was behind that.

Yeah Oscar Lindberg is the one who tried to steal AH's Identity.

Lol what?
 
Last edited:

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Pionk last year had a 45.0 xGF%
Pionk this year has a 45.9 xGF%

Big improvement.

59A19362-B7FC-4BFE-93BB-8661E55C1884.png


The same metrics was used against him last season.

Just for the record, I think Pionk is far from a top D, but that he especially with the right partner could have been a solid middle pair D, and in that perspective I think Pegs fan really overrate him.
 

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
@ManUtdTobbe I think that is really unfair and uncalled for.

I went back and checked posts I've made in this thread and replies to them. On the topic of how accurately certain metrics show how good a player is, the discussions always follow the same pattern.
First someone claims that some variation of some metric proves that a player is, for example, extremely good or extremely bad.
Second, in some instance I think those conclusions have been inaccurate, exaggerated or whatever, and I respond arguing that the numbers probably isn't the end all be all.
Third I am told that the numbers don't lie.
Fourth I point out that there are many factors the numbers don't take into account, and that there are many indications that the numbers just are not accurate at all in relation to how well they show how "good" a player is at something.
Fifth I get a response going something in the line "there is no reason to not expect the numbers to prove this", "you don't understand", "you just write long posts of word salad nonsense" and a bunch of other personal attacks.

Most of these discussions centers around CF% or some variation for it. Today nobody looks at CF% as the end all be all tool to evaluate how good a player is. There is a reason for that. I've taken an extreme amount of personal attacks and ridicule over the years for politely pointing that out.

And please don't give me "nobody ever said that CF% was the end all be all" teller of how good a player is. No, nobody ever said that, but the supposed accuracy assigned to these metrics was deemed to be really high and the margin of error was supposed to be very low and unlikely.
 
Last edited:

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
@ManUtdTobbe And you want to know why I make many long posts? And many arrogant remarks? Its when you for years have written sound robust posts and constantly get a bunch of replies like "Don't bother, he just don't get it." liked by 10 posters and a bunch of gif's ridiculing me. Just go back and check, its soooo many posts like that page up and page down, that really were totally uncalled for in relation to the posts I made.

I know that if I had been wrong, I would have been the first to admit it. But I am sorry -- I wasn't. Nobody assign CF% or some adjusted/relative variation of it the value it was assigned a few years ago, not even remotely.
 

ManUtdTobbe

Registered User
Jun 28, 2016
5,173
2,124
Sweden
Nah, you write long arrogant posts because you are an arrogant person who is wrong most of the time so the only way to ”win” arguments is to tire the other person out, which you are great at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob Richards

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
@ManUtdTobbe This is a hockey message board and you were really cocky about something and was proven to be wrong. Seriously, do you think people will treat you with silk gloves? Lol

Arrogant? Take it like a man.
 

Irishguy42

Mr. Preachy
Sep 11, 2015
26,791
19,038
NJ
And how exactly does Quinn think...well...all the fancy advanced stats we normally use are recorded & calculated/double-checked?

All this being said, something like actual possession time may definitely need to be done with just people if the puck/jersey tracking technology hasn't been rolled out yet. So he could just be referring to that.
 

Filthy Dangles

Registered User*
Oct 23, 2014
28,356
39,706
And how exactly does Quinn think...well...all the fancy advanced stats we normally use are recorded & calculated/double-checked?

All this being said, something like actual possession time may definitely need to be done with just people if the puck/jersey tracking technology hasn't been rolled out yet. So he could just be referring to that.

If I had to guess, it’s probably software such as sportlogiq, enumerating the time on possession and the Rangers stats team parses and analyzes the information that software generates, as opposed to humans tediously counting possession time themselves. I believe at least a few teams have a contract with that company.

I mean, he was already wrong about shot attempts being recorded ‘by machines’ so I doubt he knows the finer details of how it works. That’s not really his job as a head coach anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Irishguy42

Irishguy42

Mr. Preachy
Sep 11, 2015
26,791
19,038
NJ
I do look forward to when puck/jersey tracking becomes the norm, as we will finally shift to a sense of uniformity between arenas and recording data.

So we don't have to deal with stuff anymore like "the Islanders have higher hit counts because their home arena counts more" or "the recorders at MSG deflate the shot distance for most attempts"
 

romba

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
6,675
4,431
New Jersey
When will the NHL start REALLY tracking players and the puck? I mean using technology, not a bunch of bleary eyed interns reviewing and stopping hours and hours tape to piece back together the shredded secrete documents. We have the tech so what the hell is the holdup? Stick a teeny chip on the jerseys, same for the puck, (maybe the sticks and skates too if you want to go really crazy) and reap the benefits.

Skating force generated versus speed attained (wasteful strides), spin on the puck when shootings/passing, speed versus acceleration with/without the puck, shot release speed and deceptiveness, ability to finesse passes/shots through multiple defenders, high danger shots elevated versus high danger shots along the ice....the data would be endless....
 
Last edited:

Brooklyn Rangers Fan

Change is good.
Aug 23, 2005
19,237
8,238
Brooklyn & Upstate
When will the NHL start REALLY tracking players and the puck? I mean using technology, not a bunch of bleary eyed interns reviewing and stopping hours and hours tape to piece back together the shredded secrete documents. We have the tech so what the hell is the holdup? Stick a teeny chip on the jerseys, same for the puck, (maybe the sticks and skates too if you want to go really crazy) and reap the benefits.

Skating force generated versus speed attained (wasteful strides), spin on the puck when shootings/passing, speed versus acceleration with/without the puck, shot release speed and deceptiveness, ability to finesse passes/shots through multiple defenders, high danger shots elevated versus high danger shots along the ice....the data would be endless....
And so much more valuable than the strictly statistically based data of today. Agreed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: romba

romba

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
6,675
4,431
New Jersey
Props to @Ola for hangin' tough in this thread, you can take a punch or three and keep swinging, I'll give you that. Can you play 4th line for a tweener NHL squad? askin' for a friend
 

Greg02

Registered User
Jun 28, 2009
3,896
2,871
When will the NHL start REALLY tracking players and the puck? I mean using technology, not a bunch of bleary eyed interns reviewing and stopping hours and hours tape to piece back together the shredded secrete documents. We have the tech so what the hell is the holdup? Stick a teeny chip on the jerseys, same for the puck, (maybe the sticks and skates too if you want to go really crazy) and reap the benefits.

Skating force generated versus speed attained (wasteful strides), spin on the puck when shootings/passing, speed versus acceleration with/without the puck, shot release speed and deceptiveness, ability to finesse passes/shots through multiple defenders, high danger shots elevated versus high danger shots along the ice....the data would be endless....
Bettman: Puck, player tracking ready for playoffs

Looks like we will be getting the raw data that should unlock some real "advanced stats".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Harbour Dog

Irishguy42

Mr. Preachy
Sep 11, 2015
26,791
19,038
NJ
I don't think the puck/jersey tracking will drastically change how we view players, but I think it will help clear up conceptions of data we already have, or at least add companion/supporting data to stuff we already know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ola

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->