The ACC is Just a Cocktail Bar/Sushi Restaurant

Mowerman

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Oct 27, 2010
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They are separate issues because sushi isn't a wealthy person's food anymore, and the wealthy have been getting better seats for decades. His complaint towards the suits and sushi is misguided because his real issue is with the bigger system as a whole, which just so happens to affect the average fan more than the wealthy corporate elite. Sure, indirectly they're responsible for helping perpetuate the problem, but the options are conform or become an outsider most likely to struggle.

I don't think anyone resents their wealth as much as the hording of resources and opportunities that go into a winner-take-all system. He feels frustrated because there's very little opportunity to ever reach that level because success isn't correlated with hard-work. Ridiculing the working class and making baseless claims about their work-ethic only fans the flames because the average worker probably works harder than most suits, especially relative to their compensation.

I don't think you can label all suits under a single umbrella term, anyway. The majority don't make any more than teachers, paramedics or a successful carpenter. Most get perks that are written off at the expense of tax-dollars which could go towards social programs that help others. I suspect that's his real issue. Like it or not, it has very little to do with being jealous of their wealth. If making money to afford the tickets were a matter of hard work, most people would simply just work harder. Most fans don't have that option, as they're already working hard and scraping by.
If all that mattered in this world was work-ethic or hard work Tim Brent would be a first line centre. He isn't. Either way, Sidney Crosby probably works harder than Tim Brent anyways.

The average worker doesn't work harder than most "suits", what a laugh.
 

IWD

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I don't think there's any well thought out, nuanced social critique coming from the OP, other than thinking, "lower bowl = Gordon Gekko = bad" and the genuine Leafs fan is some kind of working class Martin Sheen hero, if we were to use an outdated, Wall Street analogy.

Simply an us vs them, outdated notion of class and socioeconomic hierarchy, disregarding the reality of things like the proletarianization of white collar workers, or even what corporations do with their seasons tickets. Sometimes they're just giving them out as a thank you to their staff.

Perhaps not well-thought out, but that likely has to do with not having the right vocabulary to conceptualize his thoughts into a coherent idea.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's outdated notion of class and socioeconomic hierarchy. Technology may change from generation to generation, but the general trend stemming from wealth accumulation is no different. Lower social mobility.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Perhaps not well-thought out, but that likely has to do with not having the right vocabulary to conceptualize his thoughts into a coherent idea.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's outdated notion of class and socioeconomic hierarchy. Technology may change from generation to generation, but the general trend stemming from wealth accumulation is no different. Lower social mobility.

Oh for sure, income polarization by its very nature is producing more and more inequality between Canadians, but I'd just caution against seeing the "suits" as one homogeneous bloc. There are a lot of working joes in dark suits up in those office towers with the same disadvantages as any other working person, and a lot of people in blue collar trades raking it in. There are a lot of hard working suits and there are a lot of lazy "working class" people too.
 

Mowerman

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Oct 27, 2010
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Lol, it was a joke, relax.

I've been to plenty of games at the acc.

And sadly the atmosphere amongst Leaf fans is much better in both those buildings

Heh, my bad. Hard to tell sometimes (there are some real pieces of work here). I've been to more games in Buffalo than in the ACC. I suppose I've been lucky when it comes to the games I've been at mostly when it comes to the acc (close games against division rivals when the team was playing well). I think part of the whole being in enemy territory thing causes a better environment in and of itself.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
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ott and buff are ok, i strongly recommend a trip to dallas if you ever get the chance



had a blast, cowboy game too the day before


I've actually been. Caught a tour of the arena in Nashville too on my greyhound 3 hr layover on the way down.

And yes, it is awesome... They may not be Leaf Nation, but Dallaa fans are pretty devoted too.
 

IWD

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If all that mattered in this world was work-ethic or hard work Tim Brent would be a first line centre. He isn't. Either way, Sidney Crosby probably works harder than Tim Brent anyways.

The average worker doesn't work harder than most "suits", what a laugh.

That's naive conservative propaganda. Wealth and status provide better education, networking opportunities, nutrition, and a lower stress environment at key developmental stages. Go read up on your sociology and anthropology.

Aside from the fact that most suits are on the lower-end of the financial spectrum, most are not working harder than carpenters, paramedics, nurses, doctors, chefs, teachers, or even that single mother who has to work 2-3 jobs to barely pay the bills. You'll always have hard working corporate executives, but on average, they don't work as hard as the people who need to do so to actually put food on the table.

Don't mistake sitting in meetings or in front of a computer screen all day to work ethic when it's the market value that determines their salaries.
 
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Mowerman

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That's naive conservative propaganda. Wealth and status provide better education, networking opportunities, nutrition, and a lower stress environment at key developmental stages. Go read up on your sociology and anthropology.
That's completely irrelevant and blatantly obvious. Thanks tips.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that the "average worker" doesn't work harder than a suit. Longer hours, bigger workloads, and far more stress involved. It also plenty of work to get the necessary qualifications for such jobs in the first place.

A babby's first leftist speech on lack of equal opportunities is irrelevant to the point you made which I objected to.
 

The Apologist

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That's naive conservative propaganda. Wealth and status provide better education, networking opportunities, nutrition, and a lower stress environment at key developmental stages. Go read up on your sociology and anthropology.

Aside from the fact that most suits are on the lower-end of the financial spectrum, most are not working harder than carpenters, paramedics, nurses, doctors, chefs, teachers, or even that single mother who has to work 2-3 jobs to barely pay the bills. You'll always have hard working corporate executives, but on average, they don't work as hard as the people who need to do so to actually put food on the table.

Don't mistake sitting in meetings or in front of a computer screen all day to work ethic when it's the market value that determines their salaries.

I'm in the lower end myself and cannot agree with you. Sure there are some who luck into it, but in most cases I would argue that those who have achieved great success have worked their ***** off to get there.

All he stated was that the general working class does not always work harder. There is nothing incorrect in that.
 

IWD

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That's completely irrelevant and blatantly obvious. Thanks tips.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that the "average worker" doesn't work harder than a suit. Longer hours, bigger workloads, and far more stress involved. It also plenty of work to get the necessary qualifications for such jobs in the first place.

A babby's first leftist speech on lack of equal opportunities is irrelevant to the point you made which I objected to.

It's only irrelevant if you're unable to see the connection between the two.

You didn't really make a point. You just made a statement. Long hours does not automatically equate to hard or stressful work. I realize being at the office for 10 hours on a regular basis is mentally exhausting, but try working in a hospital or a mental institute. Or the physical demand that comes with being a tradesmen. I understand that getting the educational requirements are demanding as well, and that's an excellent point. But you know what? So is every other degree. Just ask the life science or social science students at a university. Hell, afterward I went to college for paramedic school, and that was one of the most stressful and difficult programs I've ever experienced.

And actually, a young adult's neurological development is directly correlated to the nutrition/stress levels it puts in their body. The brain doesn't actually stop developing. If a child's parents are struggling, the consequences are likely to trickle down into their offspring.

Believe it or not, the less well-off and their work ethic are not the architect of their problems.
 

TMLFAN4LIFE

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Which part? None of it was accurate.

Which part? The part about the lower bowl being half empty for the first 10 minutes of each period...

Of course the whole sushi/cocktail bar references, and the OP's "socialist" solution of forcing lower bowl ticket holders to give their seats to real fans can not be a possible solution to our situation... but the real problem the OP is addressing is most certainly legitimate and accurate.

It is impossible to argue (unless you just enjoy arguing for some random reason) that there is not an issue currently with filling those lower bowl seats while the game is actually in session. I go to TONS of leafs games (whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you obviously), and I have also noticed that this problem of fans not taking their seats, specifically in the lower bowl, during the game, has developed into an actual issue.
 

IWD

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I'm in the lower end myself and cannot agree with you. Sure there are some who luck into it, but in most cases I would argue that those who have achieved great success have worked their ***** off to get there.

All he stated was that the general working class does not always work harder. There is nothing incorrect in that.

No, he said they don't work harder. Not that they don't always work harder. Always is the operative word.

All I'm stating is that the general corporate class doesn't work any harder than the general working class. It's not a matter of pulling up the old bootstraps because it's not about merit or hard work anymore unless you're an outlier in productivity.
 

ErnieLeafs

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Apr 7, 2009
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It's only irrelevant if you're unable to see the connection between the two.

You didn't really make a point. You just made a statement. Long hours does not automatically equate to hard or stressful work. I realize being at the office for 10 hours on a regular basis is mentally exhausting, but try working in a hospital or a mental institute. Or the physical demand that comes with being a tradesmen. I understand that getting the educational requirements are demanding as well, and that's an excellent point. But you know what? So is every other degree. Just ask the life science or social science students at a university. Hell, afterward I went to college for paramedic school, and that was one of the most stressful and difficult programs I've ever experienced.

And actually, a young adult's neurological development is directly correlated to the nutrition/stress levels it puts in their body. The brain doesn't actually stop developing. If a child's parents are struggling, the consequences are likely to trickle down into their offspring.

Believe it or not, the less well-off and their work ethic are not the architect of their problems.

Amen. It's also extremely regional, as everyone knows, where people in certain places face different challenges. Here in Windsor, I have two honours degrees, and a minor, as well as a grad cert. I work my tail off just to get by, and don't have a lot of luxiouries in life, but that seems to be the way it goes.

This story isn't unique at all. 4 of my best friends are education grads, and there is absolutely NO getting into teaching anywhere reasonably close to here, hence why a lot of folks in S. Ontario are heading to England, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc., to use their teaching degrees. There just isn't the chance to get ahead.

Either way, I mean, it's unfortunate. Nobody should have to miss out because of economics. Someday, my situation will stabilize, and I'll be able to enjoy some things, but for now, It's a simple equation of keeping my head up, keep working hard, and hope for a couple breaks.

For us here, at least, what compounds the problem, is that there are very few avenues to stable, full-time work. EVERYTHING here runs through temp agencies, which are revolving doors for '89 and out' type companies. The difference in state of mind and living, between having a stable, full-time job, and working like a mercenary, begging for a chance to get hired somewhere, are massive. The stress level is outrageous, and it's an honest shame that anyone in this country should have to worry themselves over paying their rent, or where their next meal comes from.
 

ACC1224

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Which part? The part about the lower bowl being half empty for the first 10 minutes of each period...

Of course the whole sushi/cocktail bar references, and the OP's "socialist" solution of forcing lower bowl ticket holders to give their seats to real fans can not be a possible solution to our situation... but the real problem the OP is addressing is most certainly legitimate and accurate.

It is impossible to argue (unless you just enjoy arguing for some random reason) that there is not an issue currently with filling those lower bowl seats while the game is actually in session. I go to TONS of leafs games (whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you obviously), and I have also noticed that this problem of fans not taking their seats, specifically in the lower bowl, during the game, has developed into an actual issue.

If you go to tons of games you'd know the bolded isn't true, as well as pretty much everything the OP mentions.
 

11111111111

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No, he said they don't work harder. Not that they don't always work harder. Always is the operative word.

All I'm stating is that the general corporate class doesn't work any harder than the general working class. It's not a matter of pulling up the old bootstraps because it's not about merit or hard work anymore unless you're an outlier in productivity.

It is not solely about merit or hard work, you ought to say. Disregarding them entirely is a generalization, I would think.
 

Rude Dog

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Dec 22, 2008
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Knowledgeable, and grossly engaged. To me the lack of crowd noise while play is ongoing is mostly just the crowd at large paying very close attention. Where there ought to be noise, there's noise.

All right...but then how do you explain the lack of passion and support during the pre-game when a guy like Dave Keon comes back for only his 2nd appearance ?

I was at the Hall of fame game a few years ago when Hull, Robitaille, Leetch and Yzerman got inducted. The fans only got off their seat for Yzerman. It was pathetic.
 

TMLFAN4LIFE

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If you go to tons of games you'd know the bolded isn't true, as well as pretty much everything the OP mentions.

That's a great way to go about completely discrediting my post, but I'll just throw the exact same type of reasoning right back at you. It seems to me that you are the one who does not go to Leafs games for you would then be able to understand the problem we are talking about.
 

ACC1224

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That's a great way to go about completely discrediting my post, but I'll just throw the exact same type of reasoning right back at you. It seems to me that you are the one who does not go to Leafs games for you would then be able to understand the problem we are talking about.

What is the problem then? It can't be that the place is "50% empty for the 1st 10 minutes" because that's not true.

Even in the silly picture shown to prove this, it's more than half full. Perhaps exaggerating the issue is the problem.
 

11111111111

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Dec 6, 2011
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Yep. I don't always read over posts before I submit.

Happens to everyone, my comment wasn't meant to be a snipe at you. I just think that, given the nature of the underlying debate, clarity is paramount (though - admittedly - I'm more of a Friedman/Nozick follower than a Rawlsian or a Keynesian)
 

TMLFAN4LIFE

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Dec 11, 2006
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What is the problem then? It can't be that the place is "50% empty for the 1st 10 minutes" because that's not true.

Even in the silly picture shown to prove this, it's more than half full. Perhaps exaggerating the issue is the problem.

Exaggerating the issue may be a problem, I will agree with you there, the 50% is out of proportion... But at least you are recognizing that there is an issue to some extent with filling those seats, and I'll just end it at that.
 

New Liskeard

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Jul 7, 2007
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Exaggerating the issue may be a problem, I will agree with you there, the 50% is out of proportion... But at least you are recognizing that there is an issue to some extent with filling those seats, and I'll just end it at that.

So you don't attend Leaf games at the ACC afterall then.
 

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