2013 NHL-NHLPA CBA
- Thread starter RangerBoy
- Start date
mouser
Business of Hockey
As a point of note, regardless of whether or not Lupul grieves the medical decision the NHL still has the option to conduct their own investigation to determine if anything fishy is going on here.
LadyStanley
Registered User
LadyStanley
Registered User
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jason-blake-knows-well-whats-ahead-brian-boyle/
League may require 2nd opinion for Lupul
League may require 2nd opinion for Lupul
LadyStanley
Registered User
LadyStanley
Registered User
LadyStanley
Registered User
LadyStanley
Registered User
Emergency recall from juniors happens so infrequently. But is possible. (I recall Sharks' emergency recall of G JP Anderson back in January 2011)
mouser
Business of Hockey
I don't believe that's actually in the CBA. Could be part of a side agreement between the PA/NHL or precedent from past arbitrations. Also it's pretty standard in all the major professional leagues that signing bonuses are subject to claw back if the player doesn't fulfill the contract.
LadyStanley
Registered User
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/repayment-shipachyovs-signing-bonus-delicate-negotiation/
Interesting wrinkle in Shipachyov saga. VGK want signing bonus repaid, and Ship willing to pay. But NHLPA doesn't like repayment if claimed or signed (to cheaper deal) by other NHL team, don't want to set precedence.
Interesting wrinkle in Shipachyov saga. VGK want signing bonus repaid, and Ship willing to pay. But NHLPA doesn't like repayment if claimed or signed (to cheaper deal) by other NHL team, don't want to set precedence.
mouser
Business of Hockey
One detail they don't address in there: if another team claims Ship and then later mutually terminates the contract with Ship then does the new team have a right to go after a portion of the signing bonus? I'd argue Yes.
LadyStanley
Registered User
The Admirals in the KHL have released a bunch of players, or they left since they wasn’t paid or something like that. Anyway there are some contract less KHLers out there.
These guys have to pass through waivers if brought in on a NHL SPC. However — would there be anything stopping a team with some resources to sign like ex-Admiral Vladimir Tkachev to an one year AHL SPC for like 3m per along with a NHL ELC that will enter into force next season?
These guys have to pass through waivers if brought in on a NHL SPC. However — would there be anything stopping a team with some resources to sign like ex-Admiral Vladimir Tkachev to an one year AHL SPC for like 3m per along with a NHL ELC that will enter into force next season?
mouser
Business of Hockey
There is no maximum salary in the AHL, however there are two issues with your idea:
a) Tkachev would not be eligible to sign an ELC for next season right now. The earliest he could do so is March 1st.
b) The highest paid players on AHL-only contracts maybe earn $100k-$150k.** If a team wanted to pay a player significantly more on an AHL deal then the typical rates--as you suggest in your scenario of $3m--as an inducement to sign an NHL contract, then the league could view that excessive payment as a circumvention of the CBA. Both substantially compensating the player outside the restrictions of an SPC, as well as circumventing the ELC salary cap.
** There are many players making $250k-$300k on NHL 2-way contracts playing in the AHL. However those are NHL contracts, not AHL-only contracts.
Thanks Mouser!
Why cannot a NHL deal be signed now, without the player being called in/it entering into force before next season?
I understand the circumvention problems, but I don’t think it’s clear cut. 3m is a bit over the top maybe, but a number way over the average AHL salary is market price for Tkachev. As a NYR fan I can honestly look at our farm team with especially many really good PMDs on it, and these kids would benefit greatly from playing with better forwards. Further the NHL team that signed him can argue that it’s worth a lot to get the kid into the system this year already — and for that they are what it take to get the player to the AHL.
I actually think it would be hard to make a circumvention argument that would hold up simply because you would pay what it takes to get something done.
LadyStanley
Registered User
But the CBA limits $$ for entry level deals. So anything above that might/can be considered a circumvention (with severe penalties possible).
For instance, the CBA prohibits teams from "paying off" European leagues to buy out a player's contract. (There is a limit on the $$ payable to certain entities for the transfer fee. And that's negotiated through the IIHF with individual countries/federations.)
mouser
Business of Hockey
The reason it could not be signed now is because almost all SPC's must be signed for the current season. There are only three allowed categories where a player can sign a contract that doesn't start until the next season:
a) If it is a contract Extension.
b) If the player is an Unsigned Draft Choice. Those players can sign for the next season between March 1st and June 1st.
c) If the player is a Draft Related Free Agent. Those players can sign for the next season between March 1st and June 1st. Tkachev falls into this category.
A number significantly above the average AHL salary would be market price for Tkachev on an NHL contract, playing in the NHL. It's not market price for an AHL contract though, or even for an NHL ELC contract playing in the AHL.
You have to ask yourself: Why would the Rangers do something convoluted like this? Answer: To get around various CBA restrictions involving signing players who have already played in Europe this season, as well as restrictions on when an ELC/SPC for the upcoming season can be signed, and potentially paying the player significantly more then would otherwise be allowed under the NHL CBA. All of these things risk discipline from the league
Similar situations could arise with regular draftees. E.g. Team signs draft pick in the Spring to an SPC starting the next season. Then also signs that draftee to an AHL contract to finish the current season in the AHL. I suspect that means the NHL already has unpublished policies/precedent to prevent the hypothetical scenario you're describing of paying the player an excessive AHL salary.
Mouser and Stanley- I understand how you think, but it wouldn’t be an easy sell to an arbitrator that wouldn’t want to get into what it’s worth for an AHL team owned by a NHL franchise to sign a hockey player that never would sign if he got less.
It doesn’t really matter, but his is kind of how I would argue.
Tkachev could probably make up towards a mil USD after taxes in the KHL. It’s not like the prospect getting paid a ton under a ATO for a few weeks before or parallel to getting a NHL deal. Without getting paid that much, this player will undoubtedly get paid 5x top AHL SPC money elsewhere and never consider the AHL. There is no cap on AHL contracts. It’s one thing to say that x million USD for 6 regular season AHL games plus any P.O. games to a prospect is circumvention, and another that you cannot more or less match what a player would make elsewhere.
As to pointing to the logic behind it, i.e. why would the organization pay that money if it wasn’t to circumvent the Cap, it’s important to remember that it’s not illegal to make a good move or use money to get better.
This player had a contract in the KHL that due to unforseen events was voided mid-seasons after it is possible to bring him to the NHL. Compensating him well to play in the AHL to get him into the system is of course not illegal. So where do you draw the line? 50k per? 200k per? 400k? 800k? 1m? 2m? It’s of course impossible to pinpoint. Why should the line be drawn at max ELC money? There is no immidiate link there.
I am fairly certain it would be one of those situation where an arbitrator would feel like “if you don’t want this to happen, put it in writing don’t come to me with it”.
Paying money to a KHL team to get a player released is of course circumvention, you are de facto playing the players bill to get him released.
It doesn’t really matter, but his is kind of how I would argue.
Tkachev could probably make up towards a mil USD after taxes in the KHL. It’s not like the prospect getting paid a ton under a ATO for a few weeks before or parallel to getting a NHL deal. Without getting paid that much, this player will undoubtedly get paid 5x top AHL SPC money elsewhere and never consider the AHL. There is no cap on AHL contracts. It’s one thing to say that x million USD for 6 regular season AHL games plus any P.O. games to a prospect is circumvention, and another that you cannot more or less match what a player would make elsewhere.
As to pointing to the logic behind it, i.e. why would the organization pay that money if it wasn’t to circumvent the Cap, it’s important to remember that it’s not illegal to make a good move or use money to get better.
This player had a contract in the KHL that due to unforseen events was voided mid-seasons after it is possible to bring him to the NHL. Compensating him well to play in the AHL to get him into the system is of course not illegal. So where do you draw the line? 50k per? 200k per? 400k? 800k? 1m? 2m? It’s of course impossible to pinpoint. Why should the line be drawn at max ELC money? There is no immidiate link there.
I am fairly certain it would be one of those situation where an arbitrator would feel like “if you don’t want this to happen, put it in writing don’t come to me with it”.
Paying money to a KHL team to get a player released is of course circumvention, you are de facto playing the players bill to get him released.
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Donald Fehr.............where are you? How miffed are the players at Fehr given he negotiated their CBA? He seems to escape any criticism.
Anyway, the new CBA needs to be negotiated before the Olympics in 2022 so I guess a lot could change based on that?
As for the NHL in China.............they have already been there so I can see why it is something they want to pursue. I just kinda feel that not going to South Korea is all part of the negotiation process for China in 2022.
It seems every year athletes (not just hockey) are missing the Olympics for a variety of reasons. I support the NHL for not going to the Olympics and I will support them if they go in 2022.
It really doesn't have a bearing on whether or not I watch the Olympics. If anything I enjoy the Olympics more if they are not inundated with the pros. I think it tends to level the playing field with the countries that are less fortunate in their resources.
Anyway, the new CBA needs to be negotiated before the Olympics in 2022 so I guess a lot could change based on that?
As for the NHL in China.............they have already been there so I can see why it is something they want to pursue. I just kinda feel that not going to South Korea is all part of the negotiation process for China in 2022.
It seems every year athletes (not just hockey) are missing the Olympics for a variety of reasons. I support the NHL for not going to the Olympics and I will support them if they go in 2022.
It really doesn't have a bearing on whether or not I watch the Olympics. If anything I enjoy the Olympics more if they are not inundated with the pros. I think it tends to level the playing field with the countries that are less fortunate in their resources.
LadyStanley
Registered User
10 interesting highlights from the NHL’s new CBA
Perhaps a reposting, but it's not on the first page and important. Opt out dates.
NHL can opt out 9/1/2019 (expiring 2020). NHLPA can opt out 9/19/19.
Perhaps a reposting, but it's not on the first page and important. Opt out dates.
NHL can opt out 9/1/2019 (expiring 2020). NHLPA can opt out 9/19/19.
LadyStanley
Registered User
Deal ended up being:
From Ottawa: Derick Brassard, Vincent Dunn, 2018 3rd
From Pittsburgh: Ian Cole, Filip Gustavsson, 2018 1st, 2019 3rd; Ryan Reaves, 2018 3rd (from VAN)
From Vegas: Tobias Lindberg
To Ottawa: Ian Cole, Filip Gustavsson, PIT 2018 1st, PIT 2019 3rd
To Pittsburgh: Derick Brassard , Vincent Dunn, OTT 2018 3rd, Tobias Lindberg
To Vegas: Ryan Reaves, 2018 4th round pick (VAN->PIT), 40% Brassard salary
LadyStanley
Registered User
Part one of what the actual "sequence of trades" was to get the above deal done and why the league rejected earlier incarnations....
Part 2
One of the most confusing contracts I've ever seen.
Part 3
Part 2
One of the most confusing contracts I've ever seen.
Part 3
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LadyStanley
Registered User
Expanding tie breaker criteria, should teams be tied by points, season series and ROW.
Including play-in tiebreaker game.
So if A franchise is at the 50 contract limit and both tenders go down in the same game
then what?
then what?
mouser
Business of Hockey
I’m pretty sure the 1 day “tryout contracts” don’t count against the 50 contract limit.
In the bigger long term picture the team can emergency recall a goalie or probably swing a trade for an extra minor league guy.
