That Lidström replacement..

[InjuredChoker]

I'm starting to sour little on Holland but I don't understand how people but this on Holland.

He failed to find Lidström replacement or #1D.

So I'm asking for those who think that way, what he should have done? Who was even close to being possible to get wearing the winged wheel?

I can only think of Suter. And it was close one. Offer was close to Wild but he decided to go with Parise. Can't beat family. Wild offer was actually smaller than the 98 mil that they eventually signed him with but Parise wanted them to have identical contracts and took less money and Wild increased Suter money to have them on same contracts.

These are the only players I'd consider as Lidström replacement or #1 on a top team in no particular order.

Weber
Suter
Doughty
Ekman-Larsson
Chara
Pietrangelo
Letang
Keith
Karlsson (yeah HÃ¥kan wanted him but as Holland has said, drafting is a lot about luck. And Ottawa was really high on him. He went higher than projected, I think anyway. Not sure though)
Subban (growing into it)

That's it. Others are either too old, too inexperienced, not enough offense, not enough defense and/or haven't maintained their play for extended periods of time etc.

And basically none of these players have been available. Suter was but.. well.. I guess some Wings fans know that story.

Subban as maybe but I doubt Bergevin was looking to trade him. Some rumors but that's how journalists get their money.

Everyone except Chara and Suter was drafted by their current team. And Chara wasn't as good back then.

Holland has made mistakes but this can't go on him. Totally unrealistic that anyone of those players was available other than Suter. Subban could have been the closest but the price would have been astronomical. I don't recall many being willing to give up enough for what it would take to get him.

Personally, I don't see anyone from our prospect pool coming good enough to be #1D. There's talent but not that good talent. Realistically.

Click to read more...

 

[Bench]

Ryan Sproul could surprise as a Letang level guy.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

this is the only correct answer, nobody....

with that said though everyone in the entire hockey world new for years that lidstrom was soon to retire, how did they know this, well simple. Every year he got a year older just like everyone else and everyone knew the older you get the more likely you're to retire.

their was no way in hell that KH was going to replace lidstrom one for one, in fact its quite possible for the next 50 years the DRW dont see another lidstrom type dman.

what some fans think though is the process to aid in the inevitable 100% guarnteed loss of lidstrom should have been started sooner or been more pressing. nobody knows exactly what NHL players were available to whom and when but where their is smoke their is usually fire so the rumours of guys like bogosian or yandle being available at various times would have been a great start.

their is also the tried and true method of drafting but with our record we always have drafted low but nothing stops one from trying to move up in the draft by packaging picks or prospects or even roster players to do so. its a tool to be used, failure to do so is simply failure.

nobody has or should expect KH to replace lidstrom thru free agency, free agency is a joke and a tool of the ill-prepared. however, nobody can honestly say KH properly planned for the loss of lidstrom well enough ahead of time to ease his loss.

 

[Bench]

free agency is a joke and a tool of the ill-prepared.

Let's not get carried away. Free agency won the Bruins a Cup: Chara and Thomas. The Hawks also had significant contributions from free agents like Hossa and Campbell.

It's not "the answer" but to call it a "joke" is a bit of a stretch. It's unreliable and a gamble, I'll give you that.

 

[Hendricks433]

There is no one that we can realistically get other than Suter and that wasnt happening either that can fill Lidstroms sot. Regardless we still lack a true #1 defenseman on this team and we've done nothing other than chasing Suter, trading for Quincey and signing CC.

 

[probertrules24]

this is the only correct answer, nobody....

with that said though everyone in the entire hockey world new for years that lidstrom was soon to retire, how did they know this, well simple. Every year he got a year older just like everyone else and everyone knew the older you get the more likely you're to retire.

their was no way in hell that KH was going to replace lidstrom one for one, in fact its quite possible for the next 50 years the DRW dont see another lidstrom type dman.

what some fans think though is the process to aid in the inevitable 100% guarnteed loss of lidstrom should have been started sooner or been more pressing. nobody knows exactly what NHL players were available to whom and when but where their is smoke their is usually fire so the rumours of guys like bogosian or yandle being available at various times would have been a great start.their is also the tried and true method of drafting but with our record we always have drafted low but nothing stops one from trying to move up in the draft by packaging picks or prospects or even roster players to do so. its a tool to be used, failure to do so is simply failure.

nobody has or should expect KH to replace lidstrom thru free agency, free agency is a joke and a tool of the ill-prepared. however, nobody can honestly say KH properly planned for the loss of lidstrom well enough ahead of time to ease his loss.

We have to take these rumors with a grain of salt sometimes. Many of these are made up and catch on like wild fire when there is no truth. Maloney publicly came out to shoot down the rumors of Yandle being traded and said he was never discussed. He believes the original rumors started when he had coffee with Boston Bruins GM Peter Chiarelli in Ottawa and the fact that Yandle is from Boston.

All I'm trying to say is it's easy to say we should of went after this guy or the next but as fans we really don't know the whole story and even if the player is actually available.

Looking back now the rumors about Bogosian were around Filppula but at the time Bogosian was a top draft pick who was struggling and they wanted something good coming back because of his draft spot. Now that Bogosian is playing better it's easy to say we should of made the deal.

 

[InjuredChoker]

We have to take these rumors with a grain of salt sometimes. Many of these are made up and catch on like wild fire when there is no truth. Maloney publicly came out to shoot down the rumors of Yandle being traded and said he was never discussed. He believes the original rumors started when he had coffee with Boston Bruins GM Peter Chiarelli in Ottawa and the fact that Yandle is from Boston.

All I'm trying to say is it's easy to say we should of went after this guy or the next but as fans we really don't know the whole story and even if the player is actually available.

Looking back now the rumors about Bogosian were around Filppula but at the time Bogosian was a top draft pick who was struggling and they wanted something good coming back because of his draft spot. Now that Bogosian is playing better it's easy to say we should of made the deal.

It was more than that.

Google search reveals that the rumor was Hudler, Ericsson/Kindl and high draft pick. That deal I'd have done. But even though the team in question was Atlanta.. I think that wouldn't have done it. You just don't trade 4th overall pick, 20yr old Dman with all the pieces in the world for that package if he's struggling a bit. Or even a lot.

 

[sully6one]

The Lidstrom replacement will be multiple players. Potential ones will be DeKeyser, Ouellet, Backman, for defensive play. Sproul, Smith for offensive play.

 

[PullHard]

I think our blueline will look closer to Vancouver's when it is all said and done.

No real clear cut #1, but lots of #2s and 3s.

 

[Shoalzie]

I think our blueline will look closer to Vancouver's when it is all said and done.

No real clear cut #1, but lots of #2s and 3s.

And to me, that's not really a bad thing. A Lidstrom might come once in a generation league-wide and many franchise can't boast to have a defenseman as good as him ever in their history. A strong overall top 6 is more appealing than a good top 2, a solid 2nd pair and a so-so 3rd pair.

I don't think you worry about replacing Lidstrom man-for-man much like you don't replace Yzerman...you just transition to the next group of players. Hopefully a guy in that next group is special in their own way.

 

[PullHard]

And to me, that's not really a bad thing. A Lidstrom might come once in a generation league-wide and many franchise can't boast to have a defenseman as good as him ever in their history. A strong overall top 6 is more appealing than a good top 2, a solid 2nd pair and a so-so 3rd pair.

I don't think you worry about replacing Lidstrom man-for-man much like you don't replace Yzerman...you just transition to the next group of players. Hopefully a guy in that next group is special in their own way.

Agreed on all points. It is neither wise nor feasible to try and replace Lidstrom. We just have to develop what we have as best we can while adding from the outside when it makes sense to.

a veteran Kronwall & Ericsson, with upandcoming Kindl, Smith, DeKeyser, Sproul, Ouellet, Marachenko, Jensen, Lashoff(?), etc. (forgetting a couple names, I know) should be a really solid and deep group in the coming years. Still very raw now, as we can see with Smith and Lashoff often being out of position and turning lots of pucks over, (when Lash was still up) and Kindl is still quite inexperienced, but they are moving forward all the time.

Could trade 1 or 2 of those prospects for immediate help if it is necessary, too.

I am not worried about the blueline. It was going to be bad after Lidstrom left. This should be the worst it gets (lets hope).

 

[Xvash2]

I'm starting to sour little on Holland but I don't understand how people but this on Holland.

He failed to find Lidström replacement or #1D.

So I'm asking for those who think that way, what he should have done? Who was even close to being possible to get wearing the winged wheel?

I can only think of Suter. And it was close one. Offer was close to Wild but he decided to go with Parise. Can't beat family. Wild offer was actually smaller than the 98 mil that they eventually signed him with but Parise wanted them to have identical contracts and took less money and Wild increased Suter money to have them on same contracts.

These are the only players I'd consider as Lidström replacement or #1 on a top team in no particular order.

Weber
Suter
Doughty
Ekman-Larsson
Chara
Pietrangelo
Letang
Keith
Karlsson (yeah HÃ¥kan wanted him but as Holland has said, drafting is a lot about luck. And Ottawa was really high on him. He went higher than projected, I think anyway. Not sure though)
Subban (growing into it)

That's it. Others are either too old, too inexperienced, not enough offense, not enough defense and/or haven't maintained their play for extended periods of time etc.

And basically none of these players have been available. Suter was but.. well.. I guess some Wings fans know that story.

Subban as maybe but I doubt Bergevin was looking to trade him. Some rumors but that's how journalists get their money.

Everyone except Chara and Suter was drafted by their current team. And Chara wasn't as good back then.

Holland has made mistakes but this can't go on him. Totally unrealistic that anyone of those players was available other than Suter. Subban could have been the closest but the price would have been astronomical. I don't recall many being willing to give up enough for what it would take to get him.

Personally, I don't see anyone from our prospect pool coming good enough to be #1D. There's talent but not that good talent. Realistically.

You listed what, 10 players? News Flash: There are 30 teams in the league. Sometimes you get to have a #1 D, most don't get so lucky. We were lucky to have several top defensemen for 20 years, now we're coming back down to Earth.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You listed what, 10 players? News Flash: There are 30 teams in the league. Sometimes you get to have a #1 D, most don't get so lucky. We were lucky to have several top defensemen for 20 years, now we're coming back down to Earth.

Lol.

Exactly my point.

Most of those teams aren't contenders because they don't have #1D. Some could overcome it with their depth but certainly could use one.. like Vancouver.

Carolina was the last cup winner that didn't have what I consider #1Dman.

 

[Soft Rock Renegade]

I'm starting to sour little on Holland but I don't understand how people but this on Holland.

He failed to find Lidström replacement or #1D.

So I'm asking for those who think that way, what he should have done? Who was even close to being possible to get wearing the winged wheel?

I can only think of Suter. And it was close one. Offer was close to Wild but he decided to go with Parise. Can't beat family. Wild offer was actually smaller than the 98 mil that they eventually signed him with but Parise wanted them to have identical contracts and took less money and Wild increased Suter money to have them on same contracts.

These are the only players I'd consider as Lidström replacement or #1 on a top team in no particular order.

Weber
Suter
Doughty
Ekman-Larsson
Chara
Pietrangelo
Letang
Keith
Karlsson (yeah HÃ¥kan wanted him but as Holland has said, drafting is a lot about luck. And Ottawa was really high on him. He went higher than projected, I think anyway. Not sure though)
Subban (growing into it)

That's it. Others are either too old, too inexperienced, not enough offense, not enough defense and/or haven't maintained their play for extended periods of time etc.

And basically none of these players have been available. Suter was but.. well.. I guess some Wings fans know that story.

Subban as maybe but I doubt Bergevin was looking to trade him. Some rumors but that's how journalists get their money.

Everyone except Chara and Suter was drafted by their current team. And Chara wasn't as good back then.

Holland has made mistakes but this can't go on him. Totally unrealistic that anyone of those players was available other than Suter. Subban could have been the closest but the price would have been astronomical. I don't recall many being willing to give up enough for what it would take to get him.

Personally, I don't see anyone from our prospect pool coming good enough to be #1D. There's talent but not that good talent. Realistically.

no one was asking for a lidstom replacement. this is a staw man argument. we're just asking for a good defense. which might have been possible if we weren't breaking in four guys at once (ie kindl should be playing his third full season and smith his second full season by now)

 

[datbwoymjp]

free agency is a joke and a tool of the ill-prepared.

 

[InjuredChoker]

no one was asking for a lidstom replacement. this is a staw man argument. we're just asking for a good defense. which might have been possible if we weren't breaking in four guys at once (ie kindl should be playing his third full season and smith his second full season by now)

As I said in OP, I've seen lot of mentions about that people criticize Kenny for not getting Lids replacement.

Better defense, sure that is thing he can be get heat. There might have been options. Realistic options but it would have cost too. But it might be better in long run he didn't do it.

Now just take back that Quincey trade pls.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

So I'm asking for those who think that way, what he should have done? Who was even close to being possible to get wearing the winged wheel?.

After 2007-08
Keep Quincey instead of either Chelios/Lebda/Lilja. Let Ericsson and KQ on the roster in 08/09, battling for a lineup spot.

After 2008-09
Sign Hossa and Kopecly instead of Franzen Bertuzzi Williams. Let Sammy/Cleary go.
Let Patrick Eaves walk
KQ and Ericsson both have a fulltime role for 9-10
Kindl called up for 6-7 job.
Lilja waived/traded. Lebda waived/traded
Defense for 9-10 is Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/Quincey/Kindl
Lines for 9/10 Hossa/Datsyuk/Kopecky--DICK Axelsson/Zetterberg/Homer-- Leino/Flip/Cleary--Draper/Helm/Abdelkader--
Do not Claim Miller off waivers.

After 2009-10
Do not re-up Homer for 2 years. Do not sign Maltby
Defense stays the same, with Kindl/Quincey/Ericsson constantly battling for the final 2 spots in the lineup --
Mursak called up for 10-11 season.
Nyquist signed from Maine, assigned to GR.
Smith signed from Wisconsin. Assigned to GR.
SIGN UFA Raffi Torress
DO NOT SIGN Modano or Salei
Hossa/Datsyuk/Kopecky -- Leino/Zetterbeg/Filppula-- Cleary/Helm/Torres-- Abdelkader/Draper/Mursak (Axelsson - if he proved himself in the previous year)
Lidstrom/Rafalski/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/Kindl/Quincey

After 10-11
Rafalski retires. Draper retires.
Kopecky resigned. Leino resigned
Jagr signed.
Tatar gets a job in detroit
Call up Smith as your 6-7 defenseman. He'll see plenty of time because of injuries, etc.
Trade Cleary
Hossa/Datsyuk/Kopecky--Leino/Zetterberg/Jagr--Torres/Flip/Tatar--Abdelkader/Helm/Mursak
Lidstrom/Kindl-Kronwall/Stuart-Ericsson/Quincey (Smith)

After 11-12
Lidstrom retires. Stuart leaves to SJ
Trade Cleary
Call up Nyquist. Call up Smith.
Smith gets a fulltime job. Sign a guy like Hannan to be your #7 defenseman.

SO FOR 2012-13
This roster isn't overly aggressive. There aren't any giant free agent coups. We didn't sign or trade for any defensive wonders.
Hossa/Datsyuk/Kopecky -- Nyquist/Zetterberg/Jagr -- Leino/Flip/Tatar -- Torres/Helm/Mursak (or Abdeklader)
Kindl/Ericsson--Kronwall/Quincey--Smith/Hannan


But here's the difference.
The progress we saw from Kind this year would have been made 2 years.
By now, he's a confident veteran. Quincey never left. He's developed into the mobile 4-5 defenseman. Smtih probably played 50 games last year, and not 14, and he comes into this with fewer growing pains. A guy like Hannan is just a cheap stop gap.
By the end of the year, we sign Dekeyser, who is pushing him for the job, maybe.

Offensively, we've got 3 dangerous scoring lines and then a checking line that can be speedy (with Mursak and Helm) or physical (with Abdelkader and Torres)

I honestly think the lineup above is a cup contender, based on the forward group and the mobility of an experienced D.

After 12-13
Cap drops. let Jagr go. Let Leino go
Sign Flip to a 3 year deal
Call up Ferraro
Hossa/Datsyuk/Tatar-- Nyquist/Zetterberg/Kopecky -- Torres/Flip/Mursak Abdelkader/Helm/Ferraro

Kindl/Ericsson -- Kronwall/Smith -- Quincey-Dekeyser -- Whoever


the bottom line is that this route isn't that much different from Holland's route.
It's still cautious. It's still building from within. We're not throwing gobs of money at the latest fad.

It just recognizes that if you actually BELIEVE what you say when you say you're "BUILDING THROUGH THE DRAFT" that you give draft choices a chance to succeed and contribute.

And that you do it 1 or 2 guys a year, 1 rookie every 2 years and then 6 at once.

 

[InjuredChoker]

^^^^^

Not bad at all. Liked it.

But did Wings really have a chance on Jagr in 11 offseason? I recall them making an offer but Jagr decided to go with Flyers. Well, maybe Kenny didn't offer as much money as they did but imo Jagr wasn't and isn't just after money.. even with tax and gambling issues, he has made more than enough.

Just interested; how many of those signings/moves you wanted to be done at the time?

 

[probertrules24]

^^^^^

Not bad at all. Liked it.

But did Wings really have a chance on Jagr in 11 offseason? I recall them making an offer but Jagr decided to go with Flyers. Well, maybe Kenny didn't offer as much money as they did but imo Jagr wasn't and isn't just after money.. even with tax and gambling issues, he has made more than enough.

Just interested; how many of those signings/moves you wanted to be done at the time?

I thought I recalled reading that he wanted to play for an eastern team. Doesn't really explain why he would sign with Dallas though.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I dunno. Holland decided he didn't want to get in a bidding war.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

^^^^^

Not bad at all. Liked it.

But did Wings really have a chance on Jagr in 11 offseason? I recall them making an offer but Jagr decided to go with Flyers. Well, maybe Kenny didn't offer as much money as they did but imo Jagr wasn't and isn't just after money.. even with tax and gambling issues, he has made more than enough.

Just interested; how many of those signings/moves you wanted to be done at the time?

Well, I wanted Hossa and Kopecky.
The earlier callups and promotions, too. And I've liked Torres for years.

 

[Kyleftlx]

For the record, I don't think the Wings had Eaves until the '09-10 season!

 

[TatarTangle]

That was before the cap, doesn't apply to the here and now

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Let's not get carried away. Free agency won the Bruins a Cup: Chara and Thomas. The Hawks also had significant contributions from free agents like Hossa and Campbell.

It's not "the answer" but to call it a "joke" is a bit of a stretch. It's unreliable and a gamble, I'll give you that.

the bruins team also had alot of its own homegrown young stars like bergeron, seguin, lucic, krecji etc to that roster

while the hawks had toews, kane, sharp keith and seabrook

i agree 100% that free agency is a tool, but it should never be used as the main tool to secure a franchises future, thats what trades and drafting is for

 

[Run the Jewels]

We can pretend nothing could have been done, and that's real easy. Doesn't require any thought! However we do have some possible options.

1. Trade Kindl and Hudler for Zach Bogosian
2. Trade a 2014 first round pick + prospects for Jay Bouwmeester

Hell, if we traded for Bogosian - there were plenty of rumors to suggest it was close to getting done - then Holland might never waste a first on Q. This is not baseless speculation, this is working with legit trade info that became public.

So let's say Ken Holland would have been aggressive and pulled the trigger on both trades. What does our defense look like right now?

Zach Bogosian and Jay Bouwmeester are both getting TOP PAIRING minutes. Big E is also a top pairing d-man this season. Kronner gets top pairing minutes but he's not a top pairing d-man. If we acquire both d-men and never traded for Q our defense would probably look like this right now:

Jay Bouwmeester-Zach Bogosian
Jonathan Ericsson-Niklas Kronwall
Carlo Colaiacovo-Danny DeKeyser

How does that defense look? Are we a lock for the playoffs with that defense? I sure as hell think so.