Thanks for Everything, Sully

[BHD]

Moved the coaching discussion over from the PGT.

 

[FDR]

Are we really going to ignore the play of Sid and Geno and blame the system and the coach now? Playing hard is playing hard and i don't see either of those two doing that.

Can't expect to win games when your two best players don't show up and take over games. I'm not letting Sullivan off the hook completely, but our superstars aren't playing like they're capable. Hell, they're not even playing average yet.

 

[EightyOne]

They're playing hard.... Here and there

Sid has made some great plays

Geno had a good game

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just think tough guy coaches who scream the same bullshit "Shut up, do your job" while ignoring accountability lose the room's attention sooner than later. The team's all but tuned out Sully's message, so even if he's preaching the right things, they don't give a shit anymore.

 

[KIRK]

I just think tough guy coaches who scream the same bullshit "Shut up, do your job" while ignoring accountability lose the room's attention sooner than later. The team's all but tuned out Sully's message, so even if he's preaching the right things, they don't give a shit anymore.

100%

The accountability also has to be consistently applied, or a coach is cooked.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Are we really going to ignore the play of Sid and Geno and blame the system and the coach now? Playing hard is playing hard and i don't see either of those two doing that.

Can't expect to win games when your two best players don't show up and take over games. I'm not letting Sullivan off the hook completely, but our superstars aren't playing like they're capable. Hell, they're not even playing average yet.

It's easier to swap the coach than to swap those guys.

It's most likely that we're at the end of the road but you gotta try one more thing to break the reverie before you blow it up.

Hard to also not see that Sully's system has gone stale here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

100%

The accountability also has to be consistently applied.

We all lost our minds over JJ, Schultz, etc. People don't think the team heard Sully bitching in their ear about every little thing but saw those piles of garbage getting carte blanche every night? That gets old, fast. All the bark behind "Do the right thing" and that kinda stuff loses meaning and you just tune the guy out.

 

[ChaosAgent]

We all lost our minds over JJ, Schultz, etc. People don't think the team heard Sully bitching in their ear about every little thing but saw those piles of garbage getting carte blanche every night? That gets old, fast. All the bark behind "Do the right thing" and that kinda stuff loses meaning and you just tune the guy out.

I also rarely agree with @Bingo71 but he made a point that we're so boring in the offensive zone. Cycle, point shot, repeat kind of stuff. I get it, this stuff wins games but it's boring as tears to watch.

In the defensive zone we took the wrong message from our turtle luck-fest in 2017 (Thanks, Rinne and Holtby!). Instead of "okay that was great but let's never do that again" we just got soffer and soffer with each passing year.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I also rarely agree with @Bingo71 but he made a point that we're so boring in the offensive zone. Cycle, point shot, repeat kind of stuff. I get it, this stuff wins games but it's boring as tears to watch.

In the defensive zone we took the wrong message from our turtle luck-fest in 2017 (Thanks, Rinne and Holtby!). Instead of "okay that was great but let's never do that again" we just got soffer and soffer with each passing year.

I think that's just today's NHL. That's not a Sully thing, as much as I wish we'd have had a different coach for a long time now. Today's NHL punishes creativity and flow in favor of safe, structured, "boring" hockey.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think that's just today's NHL. That's not a Sully thing, as much as I wish we'd have had a different coach for a long time now. Today's NHL punishes creativity and flow in favor of safe, structured, "boring" hockey.

I wish they'd play more 4-on-4.

3-on-3 is too much but 4-on-4 you still see some structure but also skill & speed trumps system and grit. It's infinitely more watchable when players come off the ice.

It'd be cool to like allocate 5-10 minutes a game to 4-on-4.

(Prepares to be flamed).

 

[EightyOne]

I wish they'd play more 4-on-4.

3-on-3 is too much but 4-on-4 you still see some structure but also skill & speed trumps system and grit. It's infinitely more watchable when players come off the ice.

It'd be cool to like allocate 5-10 minutes a game to 4-on-4.

(Prepares to be flamed).

I'm down to redo the whole thing

Doubleheader games, three 10 min periods each, 4v4, maybe even pick six players who won't play game one but will come in to replace six guys in game two... Force odd roster strategies

Basically same tv (whatever) time slot, same physical toll, and cuts down on team travel

 

[The Sodfather]

Someone said stale. Good description. This team has real problems sustaining pressure in the offensive zone. And even when they do have a 40, 50 second shift, no one is crashing the crease and making life miserable for the opposing goalie. They still don't shoot as much as they should. Too much trying for the Harlem Globetrotter, no-look behind the back pass on the tape for a back door tap-in that works maybe once out of 50 tries. Not enough greasy, hard working goals. Too much perimeter play. The power play looked a little better Tuesday, but it's been trash for far too long. Why not do something crazy like put ZAR on the first unit as a net front guy? Sully defers too much to his stars instead of doing whats best for the team. It's obvious they are simply treading water and if that is basically because they've tuned him out, then Sully, as good as he's been and in spite of everything he's done here, needs to go.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm down to redo the whole thing

Doubleheader games, three 10 min periods each, 4v4

Basically same time slot, same physical toll, and cuts down on team travel

I know this is sacrilegious spitballing but.

It'd still be hockey lol. And it would be so much more fun to watch.

I had actually thought of like doing 4-on-4 from say, the first whistle after the 5 minute mark of each period until the end. So if there's a whistle at 4:20 (nice), then it's 4-on-4 from then on.

I still think you'd need 5-on-5 because otherwise the NHLPA would never go for it. You'd cost like 200 players jobs. But you'd guarantee that excitement of 4-on-4. In a way, 4-on-4 is actually closer to "old time hockey." Nowadays the skating and the players are so good that they can take up so much space in such a small amount of time. When you watch those old highlights, of course you see the small goalie pads and the pylon D. But you also see SPACE out there.

Also get rid of the f'ing loser point. It's ridiculous that teams play for the 3 point game. Or do 3/0 for a regulation win and 2/1 for an OT game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The thing I fundamentally disagree with people here on is that the team looks like it has "checked out" on Sullivan. They look like they're trying really hard for the most part. They just look like a very flawed team that is having problems staying structured, and Sullivan's lineup decisions are making that worse.

They don't look like a team that has checked out on their coach, they look like a poorly organized team with a core that is past its prime.

 

[EightyOne]

I know this is sacrilegious spitballing but.

It'd still be hockey lol. And it would be so much more fun to watch.

I had actually thought of like doing 4-on-4 from say, the first whistle after the 5 minute mark of each period until the end. So if there's a whistle at 4:20 (nice), then it's 4-on-4 from then on.

I still think you'd need 5-on-5 because otherwise the NHLPA would never go for it. You'd cost like 200 players jobs. But you'd guarantee that excitement of 4-on-4. In a way, 4-on-4 is actually closer to "old time hockey." Nowadays the skating and the players are so good that they can take up so much space in such a small amount of time. When you watch those old highlights, of course you see the small goalie pads and the pylon D. But you also see SPACE out there.

Also get rid of the f'ing loser point. It's ridiculous that teams play for the 3 point game. Or do 3/0 for a regulation win and 2/1 for an OT game.

Very interesting... What about tiered even...

5v5 until first whistle after 10mins. Then 4v4 until first whistle after 15 mins... Where it goes 3v3 to the end of the period?

Sacrilegious smackrilegious. The game ain't what it was 25 years ago let alone 125.

And yeah I've been on board with 3pt reg win and a 2pt SO win (incentivizes a regulation win a even if you win SO you are leaving points on table). The 1pt for loser is okay because SO kinda random.

No OT. f*** it. Just SO. Get it over with.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Very interesting... What about tiered even...

5v5 until first whistle after 10mins. Then 4v4 until first whistle after 15 mins... Where it goes 3v3 to the end of the period?

Sacrilegious smackrilegious. The game ain't what it was 25 years ago let alone 125.

And yeah I've been on board with 3pt reg win and a 2pt SO win (incentivizes a regulation win a even if you win SO you are leaving points on table). The 1pt for loser is okay because SO kinda random.

No OT. f*** it. Just SO. Get it over with.

If you did your proposal or mine the novelty of OT wouldn't be all that high.

I'm still amazed how much more entertaining and skilled the game looks at 4-on-4 or 3-on-3, and that the NHL isn't interested in more of it.

4-on-4 Pens lines, just for fun:
Zucker-Crosby
Malkin-Rust
Guentzel-Kapanen
Blueger-Tanev

Matheson-Letang
Pettersson-Marino
POJ-Ceci

Edit: maybe swap Zucker and Guentzel and just don't let Zucker-Kappy take FOs (or see if one of them can learn to do it).

 

[Bingo71]

Again, I’ll admit that I’m just not that into all these “advanced analytics”, but I rely on the tried and true eye test.

One glaring thing that has been haunting this team for awhile now is the net front play at both ends...

In the defensive zone, they have very soft D men that cannot clear the crease or make life miserable for the opposition at all. Opposing forwards routinely set up camp in front of the goaltender and life is easy. Instead of taking the body, they wave sticks at pucks...

In the offensive zone, they lack any power forward/net front presence. Horny was their best in awhile and he got his ass kicked night in and night out. Now we get to watch Beavis get smashed into the ice every night, and that is when he or anyone else actually decide to park themselves in front of the net. Their lives are made miserable and then they get roughed up after the whistle regularly as well.

Getting trapped in their own end routinely and it resulting in deflection goals and guys breaking wide open in the slot to bang pucks home is something we’ve become accustomed to seeing. And at the other end, lots of perimeter passing and very few high danger/high quality chances, all while some undersized forward is getting dumped on his ass any time he gets near the crease...

Now I’m not talking about “goons”, but this team lacks an edge, a nastiness, a mean streak of any sort. A team full of undersized d men, focused solely on moving pucks, combined with a group of forwards that are similarly undersized and soft for the most part, means that the team isn’t very hard to play against.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, I’ll admit that I’m just not that into all these “advanced analytics”, but I rely on the tried and true eye test.

One glaring thing that has been haunting this team for awhile now is the net front play at both ends...

In the defensive zone, they have very soft D men that cannot clear the crease or make life miserable for the opposition at all. Opposing forwards routinely set up camp in front of the goaltender and life is easy. Instead of taking the body, they wave sticks at pucks...

In the offensive zone, they lack any power forward/net front presence. Horny was their best in awhile and he got his ass kicked night in and night out. Now we get to watch Beavis get smashed into the ice every night, and that is when he or anyone else actually decide to park themselves in front of the net. Their lives are made miserable and then they get roughed up after the whistle regularly as well.

Getting trapped in their own end routinely and it resulting in deflection goals and guys breaking wide open in the slot to bang pucks home is something we’ve become accustomed to seeing. And at the other end, lots of perimeter passing and very few high danger/high quality chances, all while some undersized forward is getting dumped on his ass any time he gets near the crease...

Now I’m not talking about “goons”, but this team lacks an edge, a nastiness, a mean streak of any sort. A team full of undersized d men, focused solely on moving pucks, combined with a group of forwards that are similarly undersized and soft for the most part, means that the team isn’t very hard to play against.

I can tell you don’t watch the actual games because you think our D is undersized.

Letang is the only D under 6’1 right now.

 

[Turin]

Coaches can reach their best before date even when the team is still trying. I think Sid was the only guy half assing it under MJ. The system might just not work anymore for the team.

 

[Bingo71]

I can tell you don’t watch the actual games because you think our D is undersized.

Letang is the only D under 6’1 right now.

Ok, let me clarify. Height is only part of the equation. Weight, strength and attitude plays a big part when it comes to “playing big” or “playing tough”. I mean, Petts is 6’3” but weighs 177 lbs. That’s beanpole territory. This team lacks “people mover” type defenseman that can actually move someone like Oshie or Anders Lee from the crease. I chuckle when I see Letang or Petts or some other d man shoving for all their worth to move someone from in front of the net and it looking like they are pushing against a brick wall...

 

[Gurglesons]

Ok, let me clarify. Height is only part of the equation. Weight, strength and attitude plays a big part when it comes to “playing big” or “playing tough”. I mean, Petts is 6’3” but weighs 177 lbs. That’s beanpole territory. This team lacks “people mover” type defenseman that can actually move someone like Oshie or Anders Lee from the crease. I chuckle when I see Letang or Petts or some other d man shoving for all their worth to move someone from in front of the net and it looking like they are pushing against a brick wall...

It’s pretty obvious they aren’t even being coached to do that tbh.

 

[Bingo71]

It’s pretty obvious they aren’t even being coached to do that tbh.

You could be right, but I’ve seen them actually attempt to move people before and fail miserably.

Perhaps that is the reason they aren’t being coached to do that...they can’t...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We were awful around the crease with guys like JJ, Gudbranson, Oleksiak, Cole, etc. too. I feel like this team's been awful around the crease and in the slot forever.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'm curious how many people here would have fired Jon Cooper after Tampa missed the playoffs in 2016-17, a year after the Penguins beat them in the conference finals. Sure, Stamkos was hurt, but hell - the Penguins made the playoffs in 2010-11 with no Malkin or Crosby.

Or who would have fired him after the Jackets swept Tampa in the 2018-19 playoffs, the same year the Penguins got bounced by the Isles. Stamkos was healthy that time.

I will note the Lightning responded with major, calculated trades in both off-seasons. They traded Drouin for Sergachev in 2017 and traded JT Miller to Vancouver after 2019.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm curious how many people here would have fired Jon Cooper after Tampa missed the playoffs in 2016-17, a year after the Penguins beat them in the conference finals. Sure, Stamkos was hurt, but hell - the Penguins made the playoffs in 2010-11 with no Malkin or Crosby.

Or who would have fired him after the Jackets swept Tampa in the 2018-19 playoffs, the same year the Penguins got bounced by the Isles. Stamkos was healthy that time.

I will note the Lightning responded with major, calculated trades in both off-seasons. They traded Drouin for Sergachev in 2017 and traded JT Miller to Vancouver after 2019.

When was the last time Jon Cooper’s team treaded at .500 for 30+ games.

Also Cooper moved a top ten C to wing to facilitate a rookie.

Not to mention Cooper and Tampa’s thing was having skill and style on every line and they threw that out the window last year and embraced size, tenacity and north south hockey: