Terrific column:Nowadays, Outrage Is as Quiet as a Zamboni

[me2]

TRUST. Players don't trust the owners, and owners don't trust owners.

Owners don't trust Goodenow or the players either.

lovely cycle.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Owners don't trust Goodenow or the players either.

Why do the owners or players have to trust Goodenow or the players ? They aren't the ones that are reporting profit/loss/revenues/expenses ... etc. etc.

 

[likea]

I'd love to hear your reasoning why Luxury taxes don't stop inflation.

I'd also love to hear you big competitive balance issue that's going on in the NHL right now.

here are the top 15 teams in the NHL in spending

11 out of 15 made the playoffs
or 73% of the teams with a payroll over 40 million made the playoff

1. Detroit Red Wings $77,856,100
2. New York Rangers $76,488,750
3. Dallas Stars $68,578,900
4. Philadelphia Flyers $68,175,250
5. Colorado Avalanche $63,382,450
6. Toronto Maple Leafs $62,458,140
7. St. Louis Blues $61,675,000
8. Los Angeles Kings $53,833,800
9. Anaheim Mighty Ducks $53,296,750
10. Washington Capitals $50,895,750
11. New Jersey Devils $48,931,700
12. Boston Bruins $46,569,000
13. Vancouver Canucks $42,074,500
14. New York Islanders $40,865,500
15. Ottawa Senators $39,590,000

we can count the Kings if you would like but to be honest they didn't spend over 40 million in payroll because alot of their top players had insurance and the kings got 2/3's of it back

Washington, it can be argued didn't have nearly a 53 million dollar payroll by the end of the year and prob didn't pay over 40 the whole year but we will include them

here are the bottom 15

16. Phoenix Coyotes $39,249,750
17. Montreal Canadiens $38,857,000
18. Calgary Flames $36,402,600
19. Carolina Hurricanes $35,908,750
20. San Jose Sharks $34,455,000
21. Tampa Bay Lightning $34,065,450
22. Columbus Blue Jackets $34,000,000
23. Edmonton Oilers $33,375,000
24. Buffalo Sabres $32,954,250
25. Chicago Blackhawks $30,867,500
26. Atlanta Thrashers $28,547,500
27. Minnesota Wild $27,200,500
28. Florida Panthers $26,127,500
29. Pittsburgh Penguins $23,400,000
30. Nashville Predators $21,932,500


5 out of 15 made the playoffs

or 33% of the bottom 15 teams

look at the difference 10 million dollars makes


teams that spend more money are consistantly better than the teams that do not spend more money and they have a huge advantage in hockey...this is why

in 2002-2003

top 15 teams in payroll

11 out of 15 made the playoffs

bottom 15- 5 out of 15


2001-2002

again 11 out of the top 15 in payroll made the playoffs
that means 5 of the top 15 did also and the percentages stay the same

2000-2001

13 out of the top 15 made the playoffs

86%

therefore 3 of the bottom 15


20%


imagine if your a small market team not able to spend what the big teams spend

you only have 3-5 playoff spots available to you because the other spots are already taken

THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF HOCKEY DECISIONS...hows that for you

 

[jcpenny]

Hold firm and make the correct deal. Will the loss of a player hurt short-term ??? Yes, it could, however making bad money decisions or personnel moves hurts a helluva lot more.

Youre not a Gm or a owner so its so easy for you to say to hold firm. Theres so many things you cant control in life but one thing is for sure to go foward somtimes you have to take risks and some Owners-GM would do anything to get a player. People have to look further than just the money when you see Ludicrous signings like the Yashin one. Of course they gave to much money but they had pressure of many years without a superstar and many loosing seasons and Yashin wanted top money and they thought that Yashin would get that money back with: More Wins=Playoffs (maybe a cup)=More fans=Marketing ( Yashin jerseys and team jerseys).

The risk backfired. However with that kind of pressure sometimes you gotta do something. This is only one example. Dont think that owners just give money to please players but they ask something in return and it is WIN. With a system with no restraints it will go out of hand.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

here are the bottom 15

16. Phoenix Coyotes $39,249,750
17. Montreal Canadiens $38,857,000
18. Calgary Flames $36,402,600
19. Carolina Hurricanes $35,908,750
20. San Jose Sharks $34,455,000
21. Tampa Bay Lightning $34,065,450
22. Columbus Blue Jackets $34,000,000
23. Edmonton Oilers $33,375,000
24. Buffalo Sabres $32,954,250
25. Chicago Blackhawks $30,867,500
26. Atlanta Thrashers $28,547,500
27. Minnesota Wild $27,200,500
28. Florida Panthers $26,127,500
29. Pittsburgh Penguins $23,400,000
30. Nashville Predators $21,932,500


imagine if your a small market team not able to spend what the big teams spend

you only have 3-5 playoff spots available to you because the other spots are already taken

THIS IS NOT BECAUSE OF HOCKEY DECISIONS...hows that for you

Let us now examine them team-by-team:

Phoenix: - was it lack of money or lack of a goaltender ??? and a poor GM ???

Montreal - one of the games best GM's ... made the playoffs

Calgary - well run organization .. made the Stanley Cup Finals

Carolina - could it be a poor GM, who has been there for ever ? .. a bonehead owner ... and the fact that their 3 highest paid players (Brind'amour, Francis and O'Neill) had a combined 36 goals in 213 games ???

San Jose - well run organization with a quality GM & coach ... made conference Finals

Columbus - recent expansion team, that has yet to add enough talent to be expecting to be a playoff contender

Edmonton - your best argument .... but the problem again lies with one of the teams most expensive players ... Tommy Salo was a train wreck.

Buffalo - young team, played 3 games over .500 just missed the playoffs ....

Chicago - not a small market, does not try to win ... possibly the worst managed team in all of professional sports

Atlanta - recent expansion team, were only 3 games under .500 while having 2 or their top 3 offensive players miss a combined 88 games last year

Minnesota - recent expansion team, that hasn't built up enough talent to expect to make the playoffs ... year before was remarkable, but not something to be expected at this stage of the franchise

Florida - a team that was horribly mismanaged, that is now getting back on track and has one of the games brighter futures ... needs time to grow ....

Pittsburgh - horrendous previous ownership and management put this team in a huge hole, that will take years to dig out of ....

Nashville - recent expansion team, that should not be expecting to be an annual playoff team at this point .... good management, got them to the playoffs and they had a nice season ...

 

[Icey]

lol

ticket prices have already dropped in a few markets AND owners are on record stating that they feel the have bled the market dry

look for comments by Hicks in Dallas and the Bruins owners

the Penguins, Dallas and another team has already reduced prices

cost certainty also brings cost certainty to the prices

do you remember what tickets in the lower bowl section of arenas cost in the early 90's

some have doubled or tripled in price....now check out salaries from the early 90's...hmmm....the top teams have tripled or quadrupled

but you think salaries have no effect on ticket prices even tho this is a ticket driven league...

lol

where do you come up with this stuff

tickets will at the very least remain at a reasonable price which is way better than what we have been getting

Bled the market dry. Exactly my point. Not that salaries have risen too high. They are lowering ticket prices in those cities because the market can not bear those prices. They are not stating they are lowering prices because player salaries have fallen.

And considering I am from Dallas I can tell you exactly what tickets dropped. That would be the cheapest seats and behind the goal.

Stars president Jim Lites wants to reunite fans with Reunion Arena ticket prices once hockey returns.

And he's pledged to offer "several hundred" season-ticket seats at American Airlines Center for $10 per game in the upper level and $50 at both ends of the ice in the lower level. Those will be the lowest season-ticket prices since the Stars' Stanley Cup season of 1998-99.

"We don't really have any choice but to get prices down," Lites said. "And we have to change our approach to selling tickets. We've sold a legacy of winning and individual players. We've got to sell the game and what's great about watching hockey."


you can read the entire article here

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/hockey/stars/stories/012505dnspostarslede.716cd.html

And lets see in 98-99' (which was the year they won the cup) the cheap tickets were $12, last season they were $20 and now they will be $10. Hardly the tripled or quadrupled like you so claim. And BTW these are Season ticket holder prices, not single tickets, those will be more.

And where do I get this Stuff from?

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/7-4cba.htm

or here is another one

By Tim Panaccio, Inquirer Columnist


Among the arguments that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has made for a salary cap in the next `collective-bargaining` agreement is that rising ticket prices are tied to player salaries.

If you buy that, then the $85 top price at the Wachovia Center is due to the $9 million the Flyers are paying John LeClair and the $7.5 million going to Jeremy Roenick.

Yes, salaries have had a `trickle-down` effect on the fans. Yet even if the NHL adopts a salary cap, prices won't be rolled back significantly - if at all.

When the Flyers moved from the Spectrum to the CoreStates Center in 1996, ticket prices rose. That first season, the top ticket price was $62, up from $55 at the Spectrum the previous year. The Flyers' payroll that season was $19 million.

Last season, the Flyers' payroll was $57.3 million, with a top ticket price of $85.

So, ticket prices have increased $23 - about 37 percent - since `1996-97`, while the Flyers' payroll has increased more than 200 percent over the same period. The point? The price of Flyers hockey already was high before the payroll became outrageous.

At least the Flyers are putting the money into talent.

Look at Nashville. The Predators had the lowest payroll in hockey last year at $21 million, yet their average ticket price was still $42.50. Their `highest-priced` ticket matched the Flyers' $85, and none of their players made more than $2 million.

Columbus had a payroll of $32 million and an average ticket price of $41. The Blue Jackets' highest ticket price is $138 at the glass. None of the Blue Jackets players made more than $3.5 million last year.

How about that miserly Bill Wirtz in Chicago? His fans pay an average of $50 a game and all they get in return is a payroll of $30 million. The Blackhawks' highest ticket price is $250 at the glass. Wirtz' `highest-paid` player last season was Alexei Zhamnov ($4.5 million), who was traded to the Flyers.

Every one of these clubs has a payroll below Bettman's revised cap proposal of $33 million. So what are the odds those teams will drop ticket prices with a cap that is higher than what they spend now?

Oh, yeah. How about the World Cup of Hockey that ended last month? `Top-end` tickets in Toronto for the semifinals cost roughly $260. Were fans forced to pay that much because the players chosen in the tournament were making too much money?

Or were those prices high to guarantee a fat profit? What do you think?

Not a single proposal the NHL has made to the players contains language mandating that clubs scale back ticket prices.

Some clubs - the Flyers included - are considering plans to scale back the price of a certain number of selected seats, depending on the seat location and what kind of deal the teams get in the next bargaining agreement.

Polls show that public opinion throughout North America supports the owners in the lockout. That doesn't mean, however, that every one of the owners' arguments stands up.

The next time you hear management blame rising ticket prices on player salaries, remind them of how prices jumped everywhere in the NHL when new buildings opened and payrolls were still within reason.

And remind them there are clubs that don't spend money on talent but still gouge their fans.

Contact staff writer Tim Panaccio at `215-854`-2847 or [email protected].



That should be enough reading to get you started.

 

[CarlRacki]

I'd love to hear your reasoning why Luxury taxes don't stop inflation.

I'd also love to hear you big competitive balance issue that's going on in the NHL right now.

1. Why luxury taxes don't stop inflation: This depends on the use of the tax dollars. If the tax dollars are forwarded to lower-revenue teams for the purposes of boosting payroll it is inherently inflationary. What you're doing is adding dollars to the labor pool that would otherwise not exist. More dollars in the labor pool with the same number of jobs (i.e. roster spots) equals higher salaries. There's no way around it. Simple economics, really. This is particularly true if the tax is set at a level that the better off teams don't mind exceeding the threshold, e.g. the one proposed by the PA.

2. Here are some prior breakdowns I've done comparing the competitive balance of the NHL, MLB and the NFL, respectively

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2406237&postcount=64

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2406723&postcount=89

 

[John Flyers Fan]

1. Why luxury taxes don't stop inflation: This depends on the use of the tax dollars. If the tax dollars are forwarded to lower-revenue teams for the purposes of boosting payroll it is inherently inflationary. What you're doing is adding dollars to the labor pool that would otherwise not exist. More dollars in the labor pool with the same number of jobs (i.e. roster spots) equals higher salaries. There's no way around it. Simple economics, really. This is particularly true if the tax is set at a level that the better off teams don't mind exceeding the threshold, e.g. the one proposed by the PA.

#1. The tax dollars don't have to go to the smaller market clubs. That money could be earmarked for other things, such as league wide National marketing campaigns. An emergency fund ..... low interest loans to teams trying to privately build new arenas, etc. etc.

#2. Set the tax at rates where teams will go over it occasionally, but also won't blatantly disregard the tax ... and at some point it should be strict enough to almost act as a hard cap.

 

[likea]

And lets see in 98-99' (which was the year they won the cup) the cheap tickets were $12, last season they were $20 and now they will be $10. Hardly the tripled or quadrupled like you so claim. And BTW these are Season ticket holder prices, not single tickets, those will be more.

so they doubled in 5 years...and again, read my post....I said since the early 90's

they doubled in 5 years, what do you think they were in the early 90's like I stated

ticket prices have triped and quadrupled right along with the payrolls

anyone have a link to ticket prices in the early 90's compared to today

and payrolls in the early 90's compared with today

while you have to count that prices have risen on everything

tickets and payroll have gone up about the same, actually payroll is higher than tickets because the NHL is losing money....

 

[Icey]

Maybe the fact that in 2000 they built a new arena and jacked the prices up through the roof counts for increase rather than Mike Modano's salary.

If that was the case then why do ticket prices increase during the playoff's, afterall players aren't payed during the playoffs so revenues increase. Shouldn't ticket prices decrease. Unless of course its supply and demand of the market and not player salaries.

And why when the tickets went up so much for the 2003 playoffs and the season ticket holders screamed and yelled, did the Stars drop the prices back down. Supply and demand and market. The market would not bear what they were trying to charge.

Player salaries have increased ten fold over ticket prices.