Tenth Ranked Defenseman of All-Time

[Dark Shadows]

Yep, Stevens is a perfect second or third pairing d-man for an all-time list.

Could you even imagine a team having to face say Potvin on one pairing, Chelios on the next pairing and Stevens on another pairing...nasty, nasty, nasty.
Keep your heads up folks.

The other team would never want to forecheck

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Eddie Shore
4. Raymond Bourque
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
6. Denis Potvin
7. Red Kelly
8. Larry Robinson
9. Viacheslav Fetisov
10. Brad Park/Chris Chelios
11.
12. Paul Coffey
13. Pierre Pilote
14. Dit Clapper
15. King Clancy
16. Earl Seibert
17. Tim Horton
18. Bill Gadsby
19. Al Macinnis
20. Sprague Cleghorn
21. Borje Salming
22. Valeri Vasiliev
23. Scott Stevens
24. Brian Leetch
25. Rod Langway

 

[Pear Juice]

Looking up my old list, I actually have Park 8th, Fetisov 9th, Robinson 10th and Coffey 11th.

And I could probably scramble them around all day long without getting satisfied. I just don't see Fetisov and Robinson such a clear cut above the other two.

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

What about Kelly, I know he is often unjustly overlooked, but a lock for 6 or 7 over Robinson and maybe even Potvin sounds like looking back at him better than he was.

 

[canucks4ever]

Kelly clearly has a better resume than Robinson, larry robinson is getting overrated. Hes got more hart votes, better norris voting record, more all star team selections, better scoring finishes, more cups.

 

[Rhiessan71]

What about Kelly, I know he is often unjustly overlooked, but a lock for 6 or 7 over Robinson and maybe even Potvin sounds like looking back at him better than he was.

As I touched on earlier, there's some real question as to how much of Kelly's production was actually from the d-men position.
Even prior to going to Toronto, where he played forward much more heavily, it was not unheard of for Kelly to play some shifts at forward.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Chelios has a clear edge over the rest for #10, I think. For some reason, this section underrates players who played after 1980. Chelios has a peak at least as good as Park (he was basically tied with Ray Bourque in coaches polls in the early 90s for best defensive defenseman in the league) and was putting up great numbers at the same time. And Chelios's longevity as an elite player absolutely blows away Park and Coffey - he was a close second to Lidstrom in Norris voting as late as 2001!

IMO, Chelios is closer to Robinson for 9th than he is to Park/Coffey/Clancy for 11th-13th.

Park is a bit overrated in this section - he was runner up to Orr 4 times, but the group of guys he was beating out during this time was quite weak (the overall competition was stronger later in his career when he was runner up to Potvin twice). People pay attention to who beat out Park, but not who Park himself was beating out.

Park was better on the PP than Chelios, but Chelios is arguably the best non-goalie PKer of all-time.

And Chelios has a slightly better playoff resume than Park IMO (though Park was no slouch in the playoffs, despite not winning the Cup).

 

[RabbinsDuck]

As I touched on earlier, there's some real question as to how much of Kelly's production was actually from the d-men position.
Even prior to going to Toronto, where he played forward much more heavily, it was not unheard of for Kelly to play some shifts at forward.

There is no question - Kelly played forward for Toronto and defenseman for Detroit. Like I said, one season he played a third of the year at forward for Detroit b/c of injuries, but no more than a few other games in Detroit. He would not have the votes for defensemen that he did if there was any 'question' as to his position in Detroit. Only 6 teams to follow back then so I am sure the voters were pretty up to speed on Kelly and what position he played.

 

[scribe114]

There is no question - Kelly played forward for Toronto and defenseman for Detroit. Like I said, one season he played a third of the year at forward for Detroit b/c of injuries, but no more than a few other games in Detroit. He would not have the votes for defensemen that he did if there was any 'question' as to his position in Detroit. Only 6 teams to follow back then so I am sure the voters were pretty up to speed on Kelly and what position he played.

Live in Detroit and have a lot of access to the local papers here from the 1950's.

That was the 1955-56 season when he logged some time at LW racking up 11 G and 23 Assts, so he garnered a 2nd Team Berth on Defense. Pronovost, Arbour, Godfrey and Goldham were the primary four during that time frame with Hillman and Arbour rotating as the swing guys. Outside of Lindsay, there was no production from the LW's since Pavelich was used on the checking line. Kelly finished the season @ 16/34/50 which was right in line with his regular seasonal output from the Blue Line.

49-50 15/25/40
50-51 17/37/54
51-52 16/31/47
52-53 19/27/46
53-54 16/33/49
54-55 15/33/45

Kelly was still pulling Norris votes in the 58-59 season which was a down year for him since he was playing on a broken foot.

The ONLY other time before moving to Toronto where Kelly logged minutes as a forward was during the 1950 playoffs after Gordie Howe went down after hitting the boards going into the corner with Ted Kennedy, and Marcel Pronovost was called up to replace Kelly on Defense.

 

[Rhiessan71]

There is no question - Kelly played forward for Toronto and defenseman for Detroit. Like I said, one season he played a third of the year at forward for Detroit b/c of injuries, but no more than a few other games in Detroit. He would not have the votes for defensemen that he did if there was any 'question' as to his position in Detroit. Only 6 teams to follow back then so I am sure the voters were pretty up to speed on Kelly and what position he played.

I understand what the stats say but there are stories out there of Kelly getting thrown out on the ice at forward with the Wings when they were trailing.
I'm not talking about any kind of regular shifts here like in Toronto, just shifts here and there with some points here and there.
Remember, this was at a time when most coaches were not comfortable with the idea of a rushing d-man. It was much easier to simply throw them up at forward once in a while when needed instead of actually giving them the green light from the back end.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Probably never, since he was a center.


to answer the OP, I say Park has a clear edge on the rest, then Chelios, then Coffey. From there, it's really close between Clancy, Cleghorn, Seibert, Horton and Pilote.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think Park has a clear edge over Chelios. (Not necessarily objecting to having Park 10th, though personally I'd take Chelios, but I'm not sure how you can argue that there's a big difference between them).

 

[seventieslord]

I tend to look at Park's norris record sans Orr. It's better than that of chelios. Same with his hart record. Chelios' longevity and contributions make it pretty close.

I am not saying the gap is large. I think it's rather small; I am just pretty sure that one exists there.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I tend to look at Park's norris record sans Orr. It's better than that of chelios. Same with his hart record. Chelios' longevity and contributions make it pretty close.

I am not saying the gap is large. I think it's rather small; I am just pretty sure that one exists there.

The competition arguments works both ways though. On the one hand, Park was runner-up to Orr four times. On the other hand, his competition outside of Orr was probably average by historical standards. Chelios peaked during an exceptionally difficult era for defensemen.

Basically Park would have won 4 Norris trophies and placed in the top three 7 times without Orr; Chelios won 3 Norris trophies and placed in the top three 6 times. Taking their competition into account, I think Chelios is, if anything, slightly ahead.

Other defensemen in the top three during their years as Norris finalists

Chelios
- Al Macinnis x2
- Brian Leetch
- Larry Murphy
- Nicklas Lidstrom
- Paul Coffey x2
- Ray Bourque x4
- Rob Blake

Park
- Barry Ashbee
- Bill White x3
- Borje Salming
- Carl Brewer
- Denis Potvin x2
- Guy Lapointe
- Jacques Laperriere
- JC Tremblay
- Larry Robinson
- Pat Stapleton x2

Park still faced tough competition but I'm comfortable saying that, excluding Orr, Chelios faced tougher competition on average (which makes sense as I think most people here acknowledge that the mid eighties to late nineties were a better era for defensemen than the seventies).

 

[seventieslord]

I think that's all valid, however, I think park's would-Be norrises were of a slightly more impressive variety, based on level of performance, excluding competition.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Because sadly Coffeys defense isnt top 50... I might be the biggest critic of Coffey but he just wasnt that strong defensively to warrant a top-10 spot.

To the Stevens in the top 10 people, he is a valid choice but I think he is somewhere around 15 and I probably rank the guy higher than most.

If we are talking about strictly defensive value, Coffey isn't even in the top 100 of all time but his offense does warrant consideration.

Personally Chelios is my pick here based on strong 2 way play over an extremely long period of time.

There are probably 10 of more guys that could be mentioned for number 10 but Housley?

The guy was kidding right?

 

[chaosrevolver]

For me:
1 - Orr
2 - Harvey
3 - Shore
4 - Bourque
5 - Lidstrom
6 - Potvin
7 - Kelly
8 - Robinson
9 - Park
10 - Fetisov

 

[jkrx]

If we are talking about strictly defensive value, Coffey isn't even in the top 100 of all time but his offense does warrant consideration.

Personally Chelios is my pick here based on strong 2 way play over an extremely long period of time.

There are probably 10 of more guys that could be mentioned for number 10 but Housley?

The guy was kidding right?

That's why he is still ranked high up but not in the top ten.

 

[tony d]

For me, NHL-Wise

1) Orr
2) Bourque
3) Harvey
4) Shore
5) Lidstrom
6) Potvin
7) Kelly
8) Robinson
9) Park
10) Chelios

 

[Pear Juice]

Had Paul Coffey's defense been absolutely prime class, he would be reaching into the top-3 instead of the top-10.