Discussion in 'Philadelphia Flyers' started by Hollywood Couturier, Feb 12, 2020.
Jordan embraced the baldness. LeBron ran from it. Don’t @ me.
Jordan isn't even that good in today's NBA.
Not sure if serious... or what you're referencing? Are we talking that he wouldn't take 11,000 threes a game?
I call BS, LeBron is a better passer than Jordan ever was, and a better rebounder.
Jordan had a better surrounding cast most years, once Wade and Bosch aged on James he couldn't carry Miami on his back. The same in Cleveland.
2011 is a good example, Wade and Bosch were at the top of their game, but the rest of the roster: Joel Anthony, Mario Chalmers, Udonis Haslem, James Jones, Mike Miller - an 8 man team with 5 scrubs.
It's hard to compare them, Jordan was a true "2" guard, LeBron a point PF.
Look at the teams James lost to in the Championship series:
2007 San Antonio
2011 Dallas Mavericks - the only "weak" team he lost to, but look how bad his supporting case was that year
2014 San Antonio
2015 Golden State
2017 Golden State
2018 Golden State
In some ways this was like Wilt, who couldn't beat the Celtics until he got a real team built around him, and that year they might have been the greatest team in NBA history. Then they blew up that team and Wilt struggled again in LA until he got a team to play with.
Wilt is still the greatest player in NBA history, a freak show.
Forget his prime, age 33-36 in the Playoffs;
22.1 ppg, 22.2 rebounds
18.3 ppg, 20.2 rebounds
14.7 ppg, 21.0 rebounds
10.4 ppg, 22.5 rebounds
No stats for blocked shots, but I'll bet he'd be the career playoff leader.
Jordan getting voted a better passer disqualifies the whole vote.
Not so fast my friend. Lebron's hairline is making a comeback.
It's a simple mathematical equation and the NBA has proven that the Jordan model isn't that great.
3 is better than 2. 3 is infinitely better than a long or contested 2.
On defense Jordan can't handle LeBron or do the things that LeBron does on defense, which is guard everyone. He definitely can't handle Giannis.
In today's league he'd be a slightly better Russell Westbrook.
These arguments where you take a player out of time and transport him/her to today's game have never made a lick of sense. You're just depriving yourself of getting to enjoy the history of the game or trying to be an ass. Either way, it's not worth anyone's time.
When you talk about comparing the rebounding of the two, I think that most understand positional responsibilities have to be accounted for in some way. What I don't often see broken apart is offensive vs defensive. You can look at the DRB% and ORB% and quickly get the idea that Jordan was a better offensive rebounder and LeBron better on the defensive end. I don't have the time to do a proper writeup this morning, but other than Ben Simmons and one random year from Tony Allen, NBA Guards aren't asked/allowed to crash the offensive glass the way they used to be.
Their rebounding metrics, like everything else, are very much a product of the their times and roles. Usage% is certainly a flawed stat, but don't look at it in a vacuum and say Jordan's was 2% higher over the course of their careers. LeBron carries a hard load. He came in and got top 10ish Usage right away. He's basically always around the top 10. Sometimes top 5, but not as frequently as you might guess. He lead the league once, in 2007-08. Jordan lead the league 8 times in the 12 year stretch from 85-86 to the second retirement after 97-98. We don't have Usage% going back to Wilt or Robertson, but no one in the statistical era of basketball was asked to consistently carry an offense to the degree Jordan was relative to his peers.
I'm going with the AI/AI/Dikembe trio. Iggy would make life miserable for Simmons, and Mutombo would do a very good job vs Embiid on defense. The key is Iverson, he would ruin Williams and there's nothing anyone could do about it. He'll take every single shot and with all the extra space on the court it would be a good one.
It is crazy how much the game has changed. Jordan kicks out to Kerr off of a double team for a wide open shot...at the free throw line!
Long 2s were king.
All of this is very reasonable, but the entire reason why "The Last Dance," all of it approved by Jordan, was finally allowed to be aired is that Jordan got tired of people comparing the Warriors to the '96 Bulls or LeBron to himself.
Generally these arguments center around things like "6-0" and "Jordan did all this stuff while getting hacked by the Detroit Pistons and LeBron doesn't have to face that now." Of course, these things ignore a lot of contextual stuff and are overly simplistic. Jordan benefited from a lot of luck in various ways (Phil Jackson showing up, being away for 1 2/3 years while the Bulls went through their "After Horace Grant/Before Dennis Rodman" phase, being able to avoid the era of Western Conference dominance and the Duncan/Spurs title teams, and basically not having a decline phase because everyone seems to forget that the two years in Washington didn't happen.
You wont win this argument friend. Mike is an unassailable God to fans/sneaker lovers of a certain age.
These goat talks all boil down to narrative anyway and nobody except Ali has a better narrative (72-10/6-0/winning the title for your dead father on father's day, etc) than Mike.
Fwiw if im building a team from scratch I take LeBron but Mike if I need to win a game.
Some really good posters can do an awful lot better than "people won't listen." That's weak. This isn't hockey where you have one or two reasonable options. You could tell me you have Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, or Russell first and I can't say you're being unrealistic. Hell, I would hear an argument for Duncan. For some reason, I'm less convinced Magic or Bird would be reasonable answers.
I don't like blind nostalgia either. The "things used to be so difficult" arguments are just that. The game changes and becomes tougher in some ways while easier in others. Look at the 98 shot over Russell and tell me Malone isn't coming over to try to force the ball out of Jordan's hands when Rodman takes his time getting down the court in transition today.
Horace Grant was still in Chicago for the 93-94 season. The post-Grant pre-Rodman era was one season, only 65 regular season games of which were without Jordan. I still don't understand how that guy's career was lost to time. He was tremendous. Mark Price too while we're at it.
Every championship winner gets lucky to some degree. That's just how it works. I'm really struggling to see why the Western Conference being better would make it harder for Jordan though. It makes the playoffs significantly easier.
Copying my post from the CoVid thread:
Tobias Harris donated a bunch of Chick-fil-A meals to the Temple University hospital
Repeating my comment
That is just Embiid's leftovers...
Is this directed at me? @ me next time so i can respond.
These goat discussions are always about narrative.
To be even in the convo indicates a certain base level of dominance and esp when comparing guys between eras you inevitably go beyond era-specificc stats to the nature in which they were accrued and the way the culture formed around them.
-Wilt avg 30/20 in multiple seasons. Just comparing numbers and influence he should be the winner and no one should touch him.
But thats not how these things go.
-LeBron only really entered the goat convo in 2016 after pulling off the biggest upset in history.
-Durant won 2 FMVPs but he'll always be handicapped in these discussions because of the way he is perceived to have gotten them.
-Kobe has now shot up many rankings due to his untimely death
I could go on and on. Its about the story and what each player represents to the person arguing.
Mike is the goat to me but his cult is truly unassailable due to the way he dominated (a combination of visual style, statistical dominance, contemporary events like the Dream Team, being the first black athlete with a multinational corporation's full media influence in both visual promotions and apparel behind him ever....)
Once again i could go on and on.
For Somebody to go above Mike or be looked at as even they would have to have comparable stats as a baseline and then the narrative arc of their career would have to be similarly storybook.
On NBA 99, i turned Damon Stoudamire into a 40/20/20 player.
So, he's my vote for most dominant athlete ever.
RIP to a Bulls great.
Well, at least Embiid will be nice and healthy when this is over.
He'll also weigh 1,200 pounds.
Maybe Tobias bought out all the local ones so Embiid couldn't get any fatter during the lockdown?
16/30=53%... so the sixteen playoff teams voted to go right to the playoffs, lol.
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