Olympics: Team Russia 2022

[WTFMAN99]

I am just getting a feel you fear the proper discussion.

I tried to respectfully bow out a while ago since this feels circular. We're never going to agree...

 

[Atas2000]

When was the last time that Kucherov and Gusev even played a game on the same team?

2019. And Gusev had the same amount of points as Kucherov, because of guess what? Chemistry.

It's a big gamble for chemistry when Gusev has a tenuous argument, at best, for a roster spot.

As I wrote, I don't expect a non-Russian to understand, but Gusev is a lock, quite firmly. And he has chemistry with Kucherov.

If Radulov and Kaprizov are so good defensively then why don't they PK?

Because:
1.They have specialists for that on their teams that won't make any best-on-best NT though.
2.Kaprizov is his team's only offensive weapon of that level. They can't play him 40 minutes a night.
3.Some coaches in the NHL are... not good.

I don't know of many good defensive players who don't play on the PK.

I do. The reasons are to be found above.

And why wouldn't Buchnevich get close to chosen over Kaprizov?

Because he is not half the player Kaprizov is. That's not a bad thing necessarily, because Kaprizov is THAT good.

I'm not sure I see your logic. Maybe Kaprizov is a favorite of the Russian federation.

It so happens that Kaprizov is the favorite of the game of hockey in that case. He is just a better player in every aspect of the game.

Thats not going to help Russia ice the best team if they are catering to guys like Gusev and Kaprizov because of this perceived chemistry or prior favoritism. Kaprizov and Buchnevich are about the same level offensively, Buchnevich has the two-way advantage.

That's an absurd bias towards a player of your team, nothing more. Not in the same league as Reality.

 

[KaraLupin]

Gusev is something non-Russians won't understand. It is about his chemistry with Kucherov and the style of play that might not show not only in the NHL, but also specifically on that NJD team, but is exactly what will be expected of him on the NT. Both Radulov and Kaprizov are defensive beasts. Radulov has the age factor, but no way in the Universe is Buchnevich getting even close to be chosen over Kaprizov. Dadonov might fall behind, but has a much better track record on the NT.

Gusev is a skill guy. And marginal skill (compared to the rest of the roster).

There are plenty of more skilled guys, or guys with the same amount of offensive skill and more grit or defensive skill as well.

Kucherov likely carries anyone he plays with, and Gusev is a waste imo. Regardless of the past small sample size.

Gusev will be null AND void against tight checking teams. He will not be able to hang against top teams in terms of keeping up with, or utilizing the plays Kucherov creates.

 

[Atas2000]

Gusev is a skill guy. And marginal skill (compared to the rest of the roster).

There are plenty of more skilled guys, or guys with the same amount of offensive skill and more grit or defensive skill as well.

Kucherov likely carries anyone he plays with, and Gusev is a waste imo. Regardless of the past small sample size.

Gusev will be null AND void against tight checking teams. He will not be able to hang against top teams in terms of keeping up with, or utilizing the plays Kucherov creates.

Again, Gusev is a skill guy who has chemistry with Kucherov. He is going to be a good PP option with Kucherov or Kaprizov on the RW spot. Nobody claims he will be a Selke kind of guy or the team's best forward.

No, there are not plenty of better guys. Name them.

I am a russian fan, I've seen a whole lot of Team Russia, including Kucherov NOT carrying everybody and NOT having chemistry with his linemates.

The past sample size is not small by any measure.

Gusev will be playing a completely different game on Team Russia, not the same boring shite he has to play in NJ. Tight checking, bruising, whatever, he has proven many times he can handle that. Your mistake is you take his play on the Devils and project it. It is useless. In the NHL he has to be on the team he has to be on. The Devils are ahorrible fit for him, but he has no choice and he is not going to play his skilled game there.

Gusev will create plays for Kucherov. Again, as a Team Russia fan I know how it looks.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

2019. And Gusev had the same amount of points as Kucherov, because of guess what? Chemistry.

As I wrote, I don't expect a non-Russian to understand, but Gusev is a lock, quite firmly. And he has chemistry with Kucherov.

Because:
1.They have specialists for that on their teams that won't make any best-on-best NT though.
2.Kaprizov is his team's only offensive weapon of that level. They can't play him 40 minutes a night.
3.Some coaches in the NHL are... not good.

I do. The reasons are to be found above.

Because he is not half the player Kaprizov is. That's not a bad thing necessarily, because Kaprizov is THAT good.

It so happens that Kaprizov is the favorite of the game of hockey in that case. He is just a better player in every aspect of the game.

That's an absurd bias towards a player of your team, nothing more. Not in the same league as Reality.

I think you may be overrating Kaprizov. He has 9 points in 11 games. Buchnevich has 8 points in 11 games. Buchnevich has 13 more shots in that span. Buchnevich has a higher ixG, iCF, iFF, iSCF, Kaprizov has a higher iHDCF. There's really no evidence that Kaprizov is more than marginally better offensively, if he's better offensively, at all.

And Kaprizov obviously isn't the only offensive weapon on his team. He's not even the leading scorer on the team. There are guys on most teams who are role players, but if one of the best players on the team is one of the best players in multiple parts of the game they'll play every situation. Kaprizov doesn't, Radulov doesn't. Is your idea that they'll start filling those roles once they get to the Olympics? It might be better to use players who have familiarity with those roles instead of just suggesting they are good defensively and hoping it'll happen when you put them into more defensive roles. Analytically speaking, Buchnevich is elite defensively, and now he's getting that recognition from his coach in defensive situations, while still playing all situations. You can call me biased and maybe I am, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I'm really not sure how Gusev becomes a lock, but I guess Russia doesn't want to win and will ice less than their best roster. For Russia's sake, hopefully you aren't the one picking the roster if you seriously believe Gusev deserves a spot because of perceived chemistry with Kucherov. I guess Buchnevich doesn't get that benefit of the doubt for having chemistry with Panarin? Why is that?

 

[Wings4Life]

When will you people realize wingers aren't going up and down on that roster. Russia's wingers allow Russia at least 3 full scale scoring lines without any line being better than the other on paper.

Don't have the Centers for 3 scoring lines with Kuznetsov out.

 

[Atas2000]

Don't have the Centers for 3 scoring lines with Kuznetsov out.

It is mostly evened out by the quality of the wingers.

 

[Fantomas]

Kaprizov and Buchnevich are about the same level offensively

So many bad takes by you, it hurts.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

So many bad takes by you, it hurts.

Like Atas, you didn't do anything to back up your opinion. You instead act rude.

I gave a lot of factual and statistical information that goes directly contrary to what you want to believe. Unfortunately, we have to live in a world where reality matters. Kaprizov doesn't take on a McDavid status if he's roughly equivalent offensively to Buchnevich.

 

[CTZ181]

Ovechkin - Malkin - Kucherov is my ultimate dream line god damn that would be fun

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Ovechkin - Malkin - Kucherov is my ultimate dream line god damn that would be fun

2/3 are getting old, but damn that line is one of the best lines that could be put together internationally.

 

[Fantomas]

Like Atas, you didn't do anything to back up your opinion. You instead act rude.

I gave a lot of factual and statistical information that goes directly contrary to what you want to believe. Unfortunately, we have to live in a world where reality matters. Kaprizov doesn't take on a McDavid status if he's roughly equivalent offensively to Buchnevich.

You gave a small sample size of games for Buchnevich and Kaprizov. It's laughable.

Saying they're of equal value is close to an outrageous statement. You should have a modicum of awareness about that and realize that the onus is on you to make your point convincingly.

Which you can't. Buchnevich is not a first liner.

 

[Kshahdoo]

I hope, defense will look like:

Zaitsev - Provorov
Zub - Sergachev
Romanov - Gavrikov
Orlov, Zadorov etc are 7-8-watever.

Provorov and Sergachev will play offensive roles, and they need to pair with someone solid defensively. Zaitsev and Zub are solid, and they both are natural RHDs. Both can move the puck as well (at least while playing for Team Russia).

Romanov and Gavrikov will be a 3rd pair by name, but not by importance. Both are great defensively (Romanov should improve his game even further till the Olympics), mobile, physical and not useless offensively.

On paper our D still looks worse, than Canada's and Sweden's, but given our forwards and goaltending, I think, we'll have a solid defense, which can help us to beat any opponents.

 

[Rayquaza64]

I hope, defense will look like:

Zaitsev - Provorov
Zub - Sergachev
Romanov - Gavrikov
Orlov, Zadorov etc are 7-8-watever.

Provorov and Sergachev will play offensive roles, and they need to pair with someone solid defensively. Zaitsev and Zub are solid, and they both are natural RHDs. Both can move the puck as well (at least while playing for Team Russia).

Romanov and Gavrikov will be a 3rd pair by name, but not by importance. Both are great defensively (Romanov should improve his game even further till the Olympics), mobile, physical and not useless offensively.

On paper our D still looks worse, than Canada's and Sweden's, but given our forwards and goaltending, I think, we'll have a solid defense, which can help us to beat any opponents.

Zub over Orlov?

 

[Kshahdoo]

Zub over Orlov?

Yes. He's much better defensively, and he's natural RHD. Sergachev will create offense on that pair, so no place for Orlov.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You gave a small sample size of games for Buchnevich and Kaprizov. It's laughable.

Saying they're of equal value is close to an outrageous statement. You should have a modicum of awareness about that and realize that the onus is on you to make your point convincingly.

Which you can't. Buchnevich is not a first liner.

You can throw a bunch of big and boisterous words together, but it only reflects poorly on you how you've made absolutely no effort to make an argument against what I said. I think factual and statistical information is pretty convincing. What should we use? Fantomas personal whims? And now you've resorted to underrating your own country's players purely because you are mad someone on the internet made a point you didn't like. As I said, it reflects poorly on you that this is what your argument consists of.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I hope, defense will look like:

Zaitsev - Provorov
Zub - Sergachev
Romanov - Gavrikov
Orlov, Zadorov etc are 7-8-watever.

Provorov and Sergachev will play offensive roles, and they need to pair with someone solid defensively. Zaitsev and Zub are solid, and they both are natural RHDs. Both can move the puck as well (at least while playing for Team Russia).

Romanov and Gavrikov will be a 3rd pair by name, but not by importance. Both are great defensively (Romanov should improve his game even further till the Olympics), mobile, physical and not useless offensively.

On paper our D still looks worse, than Canada's and Sweden's, but given our forwards and goaltending, I think, we'll have a solid defense, which can help us to beat any opponents.

that d is worse than usa and finlands too.

 

[Kshahdoo]

that d is worse than usa and finlands too.

I doubt it.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I doubt it.

Really?

Hughes Jones
Slavin Carlson
Suter McAvoy

and

Miro Heiskanen - Henri Jokiharju
Esa Lindell - Rasmus Ristolainen
Mikko Lehtonen - Sami Vatanen
Juuso Välimäki

You are telling me Russia D is better than that? How?

 

[CTZ181]

USA D might be the best out of all them tbh

 

[Kshahdoo]

Really?

Hughes Jones
Slavin Carlson
Suter McAvoy

and

Miro Heiskanen - Henri Jokiharju
Esa Lindell - Rasmus Ristolainen
Mikko Lehtonen - Sami Vatanen
Juuso Välimäki

You are telling me Russia D is better than that? How?

Jones is great, no questions. Hughes is terrible defensively. Pairing him with Jones means the latter will play defense only, which is about half Jones actually. But who should play with Hughes? Big question.

Carlson isn't great defensively as well. Suter will be 37...

I'd say, our defense is going to have a good synergy with our offense. With so many gifted forwards we need our defensemen play good defense above all, and all of them are good/great defensively. The only question mark is Sergachev, and even he is decent. They all are good under pressure, can make breakaway passes and overall should support our forwards well. And we have great goalies.

 

[Atas2000]

Really?

Hughes Jones
Slavin Carlson
Suter McAvoy

and

Miro Heiskanen - Henri Jokiharju
Esa Lindell - Rasmus Ristolainen
Mikko Lehtonen - Sami Vatanen
Juuso Välimäki

You are telling me Russia D is better than that? How?

On the US I agree, but Finland? A bunch of overrated guys, yes, who are loved on here a lot.

 

[Atas2000]

Like Atas, you didn't do anything to back up your opinion. You instead act rude.

I gave a lot of factual and statistical information that goes directly contrary to what you want to believe. Unfortunately, we have to live in a world where reality matters. Kaprizov doesn't take on a McDavid status if he's roughly equivalent offensively to Buchnevich.

I do not have time every day to reply to a lengthy post. If someone is forced to fall back into providing bunches of advanced stats to prove a player's worth, that's a good indication for the point being not entirely backed up by clear evidence.

Buchnevich has proven over the course of more than one full NHL season that he is a good and valuable second liner with exactly matching scoring. You are trying to use the microscoping sample size of Kaprizov to prove your point. To no avail as you purposedly or not disregard the fact that he has just come into the league, is playing on a offensive backhol;e of a team where he HAS TO be the best forward right away and has NO linemate remotely adequate to complement his play. That's not what I say, that's what all Wild fans see and say. He is what Panarin would be without Kane in Chicago. Would it make Panarin a worse player if he had scored 20-30 points less in his first season? No. Kaprizov is THAT level of player. He is a top liner at his floor. As a NYR fan you would probably not compare Buchnevich to Panarin. The points Buchnevich scored this season also came from playing with Panarin btw.

You conveniently use the small sample size of a player who just came into the league and can't play due to the quaratene regulations now to compare him to Buchnevich's small sample size this season. How about we go two seasons back(that's the age difference) and compare the 23 year old Buchnevich to a 23 year old Kaprizov? 38 points in 64 games for Buchnevich. A pace Kaprizov is far ahead of. And I assure you Kaprizov's pace will only go up and up and up. How about we compare their both KHL play? Buchnevich's last season in the KHL provides us with 37pts in 58GP(and meager 3pts in 14 playoff games). He was 21. Kaprizov at that age had 40pts in 46GP(and it was a bad season on his KHL resume), 10pts in 19 playoff games and dominated the Olympics.

Again, Kaprizov we should compare to the likes of Panarin, not Buchnevich.

 

[Atas2000]

Ovechkin - Malkin - Kucherov is my ultimate dream line god damn that would be fun

Unrealistic, impractical, but looks good on paper

 

[Atas2000]

I think you may be overrating Kaprizov.

Just as I was overrating Panarin when I predicted him getting 70pts in his fisrt NHL season?

And Kaprizov obviously isn't the only offensive weapon on his team. He's not even the leading scorer on the team.

As I am rather interested in Kaprizov's and Romanov's first steps in the NHL than the whole show, I have watched every game so far. It is not about who gets points. It is about to quote a Wild fan "the poor guy trying to figure out how to pass to himself". He is "enjoying" the CSKA situation of sorts all over again. He is a natural sniper, but he can't be, because no one would retrieve pucks for him, so he does it himself, no one would make a great pass into a dangerous area for him, so he has to be the playmaker too. And he has to be the defensive forward too for all the same reasons. Right now he is a five-tooler for the team. He has to be and he is also good to great at everything he does while as mentioned he does not get the chance to do what he can do best. That is why he is their best player. His play also allows to open space for other players and other lines as Kaprizov is dangerous in every shift and the opposition has to concentrate on containing him. The strange season helps as there are series of games against the same opponents, who have plenty of time to study and adjust. From watching Minnesota this season I have to say I am confident AkBars and a couple of other KHL teams would beat them in a best of seven every time.

There are guys on most teams who are role players, but if one of the best players on the team is one of the best players in multiple parts of the game they'll play every situation. Kaprizov doesn't, Radulov doesn't.

That is just not true.

Here are the Top10 in the NHL right now in PK TOI

Jay Beagle
Alexander Edler
Tyler Myers
Tyler Motte
Justin Holl
Brandon Sutter
Shea Weber
Connor Brown

How many would make their NT because of that?

How many minutes does McDavid have on the PK? 2:23

It's common sense. You don't let you top offensive players play on the PK, because you have to use them as much as possible on PP and 5 on 5.

As I have already pointed out. Minnesota can't play Kaprizov 40 minutes a night. He plays on the PP(leads the team in PP time). He leads the team's forwards in TOI by quite a margin. Now you want them to play him on the PK too because he is good defensively?

I am glad to hear that Buchnevich is good defensively despite being -3. I would rather believe you than the naked stats. I see he leads the NYR forwards in PK time. Fine. Noted. Nobody said he is not an option for Team Russia. But let's not overrate him and underrate others. From the get go till this day Buchnevich was and is not in the same tier as Kaprizov. Kaprizov is much better offensively.

To put it in another perspective too with Radulov, he leads the team in +/-. Make what you want of it, but he is not bad defensively or something. He was always the kind of winger you want to have on D. At least now and that's what we are talking about. When he was younger he might have got lazy and sloppy in his own end. But that was years and years ago.

Is your idea that they'll start filling those roles once they get to the Olympics?

First of all Russia will have to make a decision it always has to make. Whether we try to use all the forward options we have to the max and maybe not even have a real 4th line of purely defensive minded grinders. If that happens, that means that also guys like Ovechkin might have to kill penalties. And yes oh yes, I am going to put Radulov and Kaprizov on the PK not only ahead of Ovechkin, but because they would be good at that.

Then there is the fact, that I have already brought up regardiong Gusev. NHL systems differ from what those players used to play in Russia. Does not mean they completely forget what they learned. It's like riding a bike. A LOT of players(including the superstars) will assume slightly to completely different roles on the national team. Not because they have too or the coaches having visions, but because that's effective for russian trained players(but they can't play that in the NHL under NHL coaches).

It might be better to use players who have familiarity with those roles instead of just suggesting they are good defensively and hoping it'll happen when you put them into more defensive roles.

So you see I expect those players being familiar with the reoles, even if they don't play those in the NHL.

Analytically speaking, Buchnevich is elite defensively, and now he's getting that recognition from his coach in defensive situations, while still playing all situations. You can call me biased and maybe I am, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I am fine with that. 4th line winger to Barbashev is a good fit then. The only "problem" is there might be other options too, so he might be a 13th forward instead. Buchnevich's offence does not suggest he could push any winger out of the top9 winger spot.

I'm really not sure how Gusev becomes a lock,

Quite simple. He is exactly the kind of winger that complements Kucherov. Does not put two lions in one den(I have my real doubts about say Malkin-Kucherov on one line as I have seen the bad results of it in person in the past), they are long time buddies and understand eachother on and off the ice perfectly. And with say Shipachyov at C and Kucherov's talent they could make up a potent scoring line that goes completely off creativity and skill. Problem at C solved too with that,

I guess Buchnevich doesn't get that benefit of the doubt for having chemistry with Panarin? Why is that?

Because Russia has like 5 better RWs to play with Panarin. Some of them have chemistry with him. Gusev for example.