Team Canada in Canada Cup 1981

Eye of Ra

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As we all know, Canada lost to Soviet in the finals with 8-1.

What roster changes would you guys do?

The team looked like:

Forwards and Defence: Barry Beck, Raymond Bourque, Mike Bossy, Marcel Dionne, Ron Duguay, Brian Engblom, Clark Gillies, Danny Gare, Bob Gainey, Butch Goring, Wayne Gretzky, Craig Hartsburg, Guy Lafleur, Ken Linseman, Rick Middleton, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Paul Reinhart, Larry Robinson, Bryan Trottier.
Goaltenders: Don Edwards, Mike Liut, Billy Smith.
Coaches: Scotty Bowman, Al MacNeil, Red Berenson, Pierre Pagé

This is what i would send:

Gilbert Perreault - Wayne Gretzky - Guy Lafleur
Clark Gillies - Bryan Trottier - Mike Bossy
Charlie Simmer - Marcel Dionne - Dave Taylor
Bob Gainey - Darryl Sittler - Bobby Clarke

Randy Carlyle - Denis Potvin
Brad Park - Larry Robinson
Raymond Borque - Paul Reinhart

Billy Smith
Don Edwards
Mike Liut

I wonder if my team is enough to beat the soviets in the finals.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Something like...

Perreault Gretzky Lafleur
Savard Trottier Bossy
Simmer Dionne Taylor
Gainey Clarke Gare
Sittler, Middleton

Potvin Bourque
Engblom Robinson
Beck Reinhart
Wilson, Murphy

Liut
Smith
Edwards

I don't think that it makes a big difference, as we're talking about the most thorough best on best victory ever. It was kind of an awkward time for Canada on defence (Bourque, Coffey, Murphy, Reinhart, Hartsburg, Wilson are all just emerging at the time) and the most qualified Canadian goaltender had retired in 1980. The only potentially big addition I can think of is Savard, though having Perreault available in the final would also be good.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Forwards and Defence: Barry Beck, Raymond Bourque, Mike Bossy, Marcel Dionne, Ron Duguay, Brian Engblom, Clark Gillies, Danny Gare, Bob Gainey, Butch Goring, Wayne Gretzky, Craig Hartsburg, Guy Lafleur, Ken Linseman, Rick Middleton, Gilbert Perreault, Denis Potvin, Paul Reinhart, Larry Robinson, Bryan Trottier.
Goaltenders: Don Edwards, Mike Liut, Billy Smith.
Coaches: Scotty Bowman, Al MacNeil, Red Berenson, Pierre Pagé

This is what i would send:

Gilbert Perreault - Wayne Gretzky - Guy Lafleur
Clark Gillies - Bryan Trottier - Mike Bossy
Charlie Simmer - Marcel Dionne - Dave Taylor
Bob Gainey - Darryl Sittler - Bobby Clarke

Randy Carlyle - Denis Potvin
Brad Park - Larry Robinson
Raymond Borque - Paul Reinhart

Billy Smith
Don Edwards
Mike Liut

I wonder if my team is enough to beat the soviets in the finals.

They did cut a lot of guys that probably help them more. 1981 was a weird year, the guys from the 1970s were considered too "old" yet they really weren't. I like the idea of McDonald being on this team and Gartner would have helped too. That being said, Right Wing was pretty good for Canada. Lafleur, Bossy, Middleton and Gare were there. You can't really move any of them, so the idea is do their replacements (let's say Gare is out) help at all?

I like the idea of Barber and Sittler being there though, and there is room for them. I still would have had Clarke on the team because he would have been useful in all areas.

On defense it is hard to see what would help. Carlyle won the Norris but how does he fare against the Soviets? Savard and Lapointe both had off years and were on the decline but one name that sticks out that is still useful is Park. 66 points that year, still finished 9th in Norris voting, I am not sure why he wasn't on the team because he had some miles left.

Perreault getting injured in the tournament was a blow because he was always at his best against the Soviets and Billy Smith getting hurt wasn't good either. Liut may have won the Pearson that year but my guess is a back to back Cup winner is the odds on favourite to be the starter regardless.
 

reckoning

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The lines and pairings they used for the final game were:

Dionne - Gretzky - Lafleur
Gillies - Trottier - Bossy
Gare - Linseman - Middleton
Gainey - Goring - Duguay

Potvin - Robinson
Bourque - Hartsburg
Beck - Engblom


The Islander line was easily Canada's most effective in the game, with Gillies probably being their best player. The Gretzky line had their moments when it looked like something would happen, but never really connected the way they did when Perreault was on it. This was probably the only poor performance Gretzky ever had against the Soviets in his career. His biggest mistake was the blind pass that led to the Soviets shorthanded goal that put the game out of reach. Gainey played a strong game, Goring was fine as well. The other four forwards were barely noticeable, although Middleton had a good tournament up to that point.

Potvin was their best defenceman by far. Robinson was their second best. The Bourque-Hartsburg pair struggled and were getting burned a lot. Barry Beck was trying hard, but didn't have the speed needed for this game. Engblom actually had some of Canada's best scoring chances in the second period when Tretiak held them off; but if Brian Engblom is getting the shots on your teams best scoring opportunities, that's a problem in itself.

I don't know if a couple of player changes would have made a difference, except when it comes to speed. Coffey and Gartner had strong training camps and their speed would've helped. But they were both inexperienced and the team was already very young.

The biggest change they could have made was in goal. Don Edwards had played well against the Soviets before, and I'm still surprised Bowman didn't put him in when Liut was clearly losing confidence.

In the '84 game, once the Soviets went up 2-1 it looked like they were going to run away with it again. They were absolutely flying and coming at Canada in waves. But Pete Peeters made some key saves and kept them in the game. That's what the '81 team was missing. If a couple of saves had been made, the score is closer. Canada wouldn't need to take as many gambles, which means the Soviets wouldn't get so many 2-on-1's in the third period. Maybe Robinson is on the point for the powerplay instead of Lafleur, and defends the play better. Who knows how a couple of small factors might have changed things?
 

The Panther

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This era is before my time, and some of these players I never saw play, but the names that kind of jump out at me are Beck, Duguay, and Liut. I know they were all big-ish names around the turn of the 80s, but I have to question whether those two skaters have the required speed/skill, and if that goalie had the necessary chops, for this kind of game. I'm not saying they were Zamuner-ish.
 

frisco

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This era is before my time, and some of these players I never saw play, but the names that kind of jump out at me are Beck, Duguay, and Liut. I know they were all big-ish names around the turn of the 80s, but I have to question whether those two skaters have the required speed/skill, and if that goalie had the necessary chops, for this kind of game. I'm not saying they were Zamuner-ish.
Beck was considered a legitimate star in the Shea Weber-mode. Now it never went that way for him but it wasn't controversial he was on the team. Liut was coming off a Pearson win over Gretzky. Duguay was eventually a 30-35 goal, two way guy whose skating was probably his best attribute. That being said, he had not yet developed fully and I personally was very surprised he made the team.

Still think this is the best team ever assembled but that one game, winner takes all egg laying kind of doomed it. Should have been a best of three final. Also, as mentioned in this thread Perreault was really playing unbelievable hockey (9 points in less than 4 GP) and his injury was sort of a psychological downer as well.

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Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Still think this is the best team ever assembled but that one game, winner takes all egg laying kind of doomed it. Should have been a best of three final. Also, as mentioned in this thread Perreault was really playing unbelievable hockey (9 points in less than 4 GP) and his injury was sort of a psychological downer as well.

My Best-Carey

Just to ask, you think the 1981 Canadian team is the best ever assembled? I'll still go with the 1976 team, on paper and from the results. I will admit though, the 1981 team was very, very good on paper and up until the final game playing very well. The defense isn't up to 1976 standards and there wasn't that goalie that would steal the game from you but still in my mind very underrated. 12 HHOFers on that team.

This era is before my time, and some of these players I never saw play, but the names that kind of jump out at me are Beck, Duguay, and Liut. I know they were all big-ish names around the turn of the 80s, but I have to question whether those two skaters have the required speed/skill, and if that goalie had the necessary chops, for this kind of game. I'm not saying they were Zamuner-ish.

The thing with Beck is that he was freakishly strong. I remember that from his playing days. He wasn't a bad pick at the time. I may have taken out someone like Reinhart on defense and added Coffey. Completely easy to say now of course, but both were young and Reinhart only had two NHL seasons under his belt as opposed to Coffey's 1. Reinhart did have a very good 1981 season though. Coffey would finish the 1981-'82 season 3rd in Norris voting. Of course no one knows this in 1981, but he still had a bit of a breakout in the 1981 playoffs and I wonder just how well his speed would have helped. It probably would have. I've never understood the reluctance to take a younger team, whether it is the Olympics, Canada Cup or World Juniors. Some are just special, and Coffey was.

The biggest change they could have made was in goal. Don Edwards had played well against the Soviets before, and I'm still surprised Bowman didn't put him in when Liut was clearly losing confidence.

In the '84 game, once the Soviets went up 2-1 it looked like they were going to run away with it again. They were absolutely flying and coming at Canada in waves. But Pete Peeters made some key saves and kept them in the game. That's what the '81 team was missing. If a couple of saves had been made, the score is closer. Canada wouldn't need to take as many gambles, which means the Soviets wouldn't get so many 2-on-1's in the third period. Maybe Robinson is on the point for the powerplay instead of Lafleur, and defends the play better. Who knows how a couple of small factors might have changed things?

It is a classic case of second guessing, but in my mind the Edwards pick would have worked better. Canada and the Soviets played the final round robin game against each other and Edwards and Myshkin were in net. It was the "back up goalie" game although neither were slouches. But it was 7-3 Canada. In a way it was similar to the final game. Close game up until the 3rd period. Canada was tied 2-2 before 5 third period goals and then a late Soviet goal. Now, I know the Soviets played tricks on your mind back then and perhaps they were told to take their foot off the pedal but they had the KLM line in this game, Fetisov, Kasatonov, etc. Maybe they sat some of their big names later in the game, I can't recall, but late in the 3rd period Makarov had a power play goal from Fetisov and Kasatonov, so I would say no.

So why not stick with Edwards then? He got a good look against the Soviets and Canada already knew Tretiak well so he was no surprise. My guess is this, if Edwards plays in the final game and loses then Scotty Bowman is accused of using "his" goalie in Buffalo. Hindsight is 20/20 but it would be interesting to see what Billy Smith does had he not been hurt. It isn't 8-1.
 

frisco

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Just to ask, you think the 1981 Canadian team is the best ever assembled? I'll still go with the 1976 team, on paper and from the results. I will admit though, the 1981 team was very, very good on paper and up until the final game playing very well. The defense isn't up to 1976 standards and there wasn't that goalie that would steal the game from you but still in my mind very underrated. 12 HHOFers on that team.
I would put 1976 in at #2 and it is close. Definitely, a stronger d-core (best ever anywhere) not that 1981's group were slouches. Vachon, playing the best hockey of his life is better than an average Liut but who knew that going in to the tourney? I like the firepower and youth on the 1981 team but that's pretty subjective. They did have Gretzky.

The thing that throws things off is the Soviets in '76 sent a squad not really composed of their "A" team mostly because they were being jackasses. So you don't get that "best on best" feel. The Czechs were good and played the USSR close in that year's (1976) Olympics but one never got the feeling that Canada was truly threatened in 1976. And the Czechs did beat them in the round robin. In 1981, it was a two-team tournament for the most part and the one game final didn't allow Canada a chance for redemption.

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Iron Mike Sharpe

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Dec 6, 2017
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Triple Crown Line would've been cool to see playing against the Soviets, as a couple have noted above, but Simmer was injured and wasn't invited to training camp. Beck was the slowest guy on the team, but the guys who got cut were Carlyle, Ramage and Schoenfeld - not sure any of those guys could've done better. The only other Canadian D that year that might have gotten invitations were maybe Larry Murphy and Brad Park - Coffey's rookie season wasn't strong enough to warrant consideration at the time. One weakness was that the team only had two natural LWs in Gillies and Gainey, and they were converting guys like Perrault,Dionne, Gare, Linseman to the left side. Shutt, Payne and Barber were cut in training camp, but I'm not sure if any of them would've been signifcant additions. It might've been interesting to see Bob Bourne on the team to strengthen the left side.
 

Big Phil

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I would put 1976 in at #2 and it is close. Definitely, a stronger d-core (best ever anywhere) not that 1981's group were slouches. Vachon, playing the best hockey of his life is better than an average Liut but who knew that going in to the tourney? I like the firepower and youth on the 1981 team but that's pretty subjective. They did have Gretzky.

The thing that throws things off is the Soviets in '76 sent a squad not really composed of their "A" team mostly because they were being jackasses. So you don't get that "best on best" feel. The Czechs were good and played the USSR close in that year's (1976) Olympics but one never got the feeling that Canada was truly threatened in 1976. And the Czechs did beat them in the round robin. In 1981, it was a two-team tournament for the most part and the one game final didn't allow Canada a chance for redemption.

My Best-Carey

Fair enough, but they did lose 8-1 in the final. Not 3-2 in overtime or anything. I think Vachon is at least as good as Liut at the time. Vachon a year removed from his season where he finished 2nd in Hart voting and he did almost as well in 1977.

Here are how the two teams fared in the tournament including goals for and against:

Canada 1976 - 6-1 (33-10)
Canada 1981 - 5-1-1- (37-22)

One thing to add, in 1976 Canada was only trailing for about 7 minutes the entire tournament. This was a team almost always in control of what was happening. But we all know the results and it is no surprise that 1976 wins in this area. Let's just look at the roster. Not that 1981 didn't have a great roster, because they did, but 1976 beats them in every which way.

Goaltending goes to 1976 here, in peak value and depth.

Defense it isn't all that close. No team has had the defense that 1976 had.

Forward this is still probably the best and deepest collection of forwards ever seen. There aren't head scratching picks here. This is a team that cut Rene Robert, they didn't even invite Jean Ratelle or Rod Gilbert or Stan Mikita. I just can't see how on paper a team was better than this one including the 1981 team that got beaten badly when it counted and had a few suspect picks on its roster.
 

frisco

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Fair enough, but they did lose 8-1 in the final. Not 3-2 in overtime or anything. I think Vachon is at least as good as Liut at the time. Vachon a year removed from his season where he finished 2nd in Hart voting and he did almost as well in 1977.

Here are how the two teams fared in the tournament including goals for and against:

Canada 1976 - 6-1 (33-10)
Canada 1981 - 5-1-1- (37-22)

One thing to add, in 1976 Canada was only trailing for about 7 minutes the entire tournament. This was a team almost always in control of what was happening. But we all know the results and it is no surprise that 1976 wins in this area. Let's just look at the roster. Not that 1981 didn't have a great roster, because they did, but 1976 beats them in every which way.

Goaltending goes to 1976 here, in peak value and depth.

Defense it isn't all that close. No team has had the defense that 1976 had.

Forward this is still probably the best and deepest collection of forwards ever seen. There aren't head scratching picks here. This is a team that cut Rene Robert, they didn't even invite Jean Ratelle or Rod Gilbert or Stan Mikita. I just can't see how on paper a team was better than this one including the 1981 team that got beaten badly when it counted and had a few suspect picks on its roster.
I'll give you the defense for sure. Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe beat Potvin, a lesser Robinson, a young Bourque, Engblom, and Hartsburg.

Goaltending I'm going to say a wash.

Forwards I'll give the nod to 1981. Perreault, Dionne, Lafleur, Gainey were the same and I don't think significantly better or worse on the whole 76 vs. 81. Taking those guys out it comes down to 37 year-old Bobby Hull, Esposito (34), Sittler vs. Bossy, Gretzky, Trottier all in peak form at the core. I don't think that's close and really where 1981 outshines 1976.

The depth guys of '76 (Barber, Mahovolich, Leach, Martin, McDonald, Shutt, Clarke) vs. '81 (Gillies, Goring, Middleton, Gare, Duguay). With Clarke at less than 100% in 1976 you'd probably have to say Gillies, fitting in nicely with Bossy and Trottier, was probably the best of the rest.

Anyway, interesting argument. Like I said, too bad the '76 team weren't really, truly challenged by an elite USSR squad and the '81 team had one horrible game in the whole tourney which happened to the one-game final and were missing probably their best forward in Perreault when it counted.

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Big Phil

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I'll give you the defense for sure. Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe beat Potvin, a lesser Robinson, a young Bourque, Engblom, and Hartsburg.

Goaltending I'm going to say a wash.

Forwards I'll give the nod to 1981. Perreault, Dionne, Lafleur, Gainey were the same and I don't think significantly better or worse on the whole 76 vs. 81. Taking those guys out it comes down to 37 year-old Bobby Hull, Esposito (34), Sittler vs. Bossy, Gretzky, Trottier all in peak form at the core. I don't think that's close and really where 1981 outshines 1976.

The depth guys of '76 (Barber, Mahovolich, Leach, Martin, McDonald, Shutt, Clarke) vs. '81 (Gillies, Goring, Middleton, Gare, Duguay). With Clarke at less than 100% in 1976 you'd probably have to say Gillies, fitting in nicely with Bossy and Trottier, was probably the best of the rest.

Anyway, interesting argument. Like I said, too bad the '76 team weren't really, truly challenged by an elite USSR squad and the '81 team had one horrible game in the whole tourney which happened to the one-game final and were missing probably their best forward in Perreault when it counted.

My Best-Carey

I am just going to go side by side here because perhaps it is closer than I think. I've always thought the 1976 defense was the best ever and the crop of forwards was the deepest ever too. So let's compare.

I will admit, goaltending is about as much of a wash as can be. Vachon played better in 1976 but it is pretty even on both sides. Vachon, Cheevers and Resch are similar to Liut, Smith and Edwards.

Defense is a clear edge to the 1976 team. Orr still doing his thing and the "big 3" in Montreal along with Potvin. Vadnais got hurt so that left Jimmy Watson as the other defenseman. They beat the 1981 defense for sure here.

Forwards. I am going to pick the best forwards on each team and go in a descending mode to see where the edge is:

Lafleur < Gretzky
Clarke = Trottier
Perreault = Bossy
Dionne < Dionne
Hull = Perreault
Sittler >Lafleur
Barber = Middleton
Esposito > Gillies
Leach > Gare
P. Mahovlich > Goring
McDonald > Gainey
Martin > Linseman
Shutt > Duguay
Gainey
Gare

Sort of how I suspect. The top end talent is pretty close to the same but the 1976 depth is what holds them at the end. There just aren't the Linseman, Duguay type of players on the 1976 team. I am calling 2/3 positions the clear edge to 1976 with goaltending being similar. Still a great line up for the 1981 team but I think a line up that is in between those two if you want to count it is the 1979 NHL Challenge Cup team.
 

Hanji

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I am just going to go side by side here because perhaps it is closer than I think. I've always thought the 1976 defense was the best ever and the crop of forwards was the deepest ever too. So let's compare.

I will admit, goaltending is about as much of a wash as can be. Vachon played better in 1976 but it is pretty even on both sides. Vachon, Cheevers and Resch are similar to Liut, Smith and Edwards.

Defense is a clear edge to the 1976 team. Orr still doing his thing and the "big 3" in Montreal along with Potvin. Vadnais got hurt so that left Jimmy Watson as the other defenseman. They beat the 1981 defense for sure here.

Forwards. I am going to pick the best forwards on each team and go in a descending mode to see where the edge is:

Lafleur < Gretzky
Clarke = Trottier
Perreault = Bossy
Dionne < Dionne
Hull = Perreault
Sittler >Lafleur
Barber = Middleton
Esposito > Gillies
Leach > Gare
P. Mahovlich > Goring
McDonald > Gainey
Martin > Linseman
Shutt > Duguay
Gainey
Gare

Sort of how I suspect. The top end talent is pretty close to the same but the 1976 depth is what holds them at the end. There just aren't the Linseman, Duguay type of players on the 1976 team. I am calling 2/3 positions the clear edge to 1976 with goaltending being similar. Still a great line up for the 1981 team but I think a line up that is in between those two if you want to count it is the 1979 NHL Challenge Cup team.

In terms of actual performance, the 1976 offense was quite underwhelming; at least for a team considered the greatest ever.

Beyond the 11 goal opener vs bottom dweller Finland, the 1976 squad managed a pedestrian 3.66 goals/game for the remainder of the tourney; including getting shut out by Czechoslovakia.
The average goals/game per team for the entire tourney was 3.675
 

Big Phil

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In terms of actual performance, the 1976 offense was quite underwhelming; at least for a team considered the greatest ever.

Beyond the 11 goal opener vs bottom dweller Finland, the 1976 squad managed a pedestrian 3.66 goals/game for the remainder of the tourney; including getting shut out by Czechoslovakia.
The average goals/game per team for the entire tourney was 3.675

You've got to include the Finland game, every one else played Finland too. Overall this team scored 4.71 GPG and allowed 1.42 GPG. That's pretty dominant when you think of it and this team was not familiar with each other at all either. Going into training camp they were basically a batch of Canadiens, Flyers, Bruins, Leafs and Sabres playing together for the first time. Imagine them over a full season.

They only had about 7 minutes the entire tournament where they were trailing. Only the 2004 World Cup team and the 2014 Olympic team never trailed in a tournament.
 

Dingo

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I just watched that game.
I have a likely unpopular theory that a Kharlamov and the 72 Russians were a catalyst for a sea change in how to play hockey. Bobby Clarke said that they played like no one, aside from Orr, had played, and they all did it.
Canadian kids loved Kharlamov. Less than ten years later the Canadians in the NHL, to my eye, were playing a hybrid of old Russian and old Canadian hockey. Gretzky was the absolute first and the foremost in this, and I believe this is why scoring went nuts in the 80s, and goalies numbers got so much worse than their 70s counterparts who, logically, played the same style and could not have been across the board better.
Anyways, that’s what I saw in the Dionne, Lafleur Gretzky line. I saw two guys who wanted to skate fast down a wing and get a shot on net, drive the net, and one guy, probably too young and starstruck to speak up, hitting the blue line, stopping up, or going east-west, skating in behind the puck carrier, getting open behind the net and in corners, and more or less getting totally ignored.
As far as I know no generation has been dinosaured as young as that of the seventies stars. I believe the game changed and passed them by much more than they aged more heavily at younger ages than Stan, Bob, Gord, Teemu, Joe, Mario, Jaromir, Ray, Nik, Maurice and company.

As far as the ass-kicking - well, it was bad, but scoring was crazy then and I don’t think people thought they were done until about 6-1. They beat the Soviets in the round robin, pretty soundly if I recall. Hockey is too f***ed up to get worked up over one game’s result.

Should get worked up over the embarrassment that was Eagleson, though.
 
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Thenameless

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Apr 29, 2014
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Honorable mention to both the 1987 Canada Cup Team and the 2014 Olympic Team. 87 had weak defense compared to the above, but the highest end talent at its peak up front, backstopped by a pretty good money goalie; these elements would give them a chance against any team, I think. And then we have 2014 for the opposite reason. My goodness, these guys were hard to score on. If you're a coach, this is how you want your team to play; no drama to raise the heart rate, just a suffocating style that gives the opponent little to no hope of scoring, let alone winning.
 

koyvoo

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I think the 2002 team gets neglected in these conversations. Not to suggest they were the best, but that was a solid team.
 

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