Confirmed Trade: [TBL/NJD] Devils trade Blake Coleman to Lightning for Nolan Foote, VAN 2020 1st

AndreRoy

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What Coleman gives us that we didn’t have before is the ability to roll three legitimate top six-caliber lines. Before all the recent injuries we’d been going with some variation of the following:

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov
Palat-Cirelli-Johnson
Killorn-Paquette-Maroon
Verhaeghe-Stephens-Gourde

That first line is the best in the NHL and the second is a strong two-way line that can handle opposing teams’ top lines while also scoring plenty themselves, but those bottom two lines while defensively responsible don’t exactly strike fear into anyone’s heart offensively. Now contrast that with this:

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov
Killorn-Cirelli-Coleman
Palat-Johnson-Gourde
Maroon-Paquette-Stephens

The first line remains the same, and the second while featuring different personnel at the wings is still a strong two-way line that can shut down opposing top lines while also being a threat offensively. But that third line now actually has some teeth to it, with speed and a good blend of offensive skill and defensive acumen. That’s a third line consisting entirely of players who have played significant roles in our top six both this year and last. And the fourth line, while not all that impressive offensively, has plenty of grit and is strong defensively.

I’m not saying those are necessarily the exact lines we’ll go with; the point is that the addition of Coleman gives us a lot of options and makes us a substantially deeper and more dangerous team.

And before anyone asks why we couldn’t do something similar before, without the addition of Coleman, I’ll explain why.

The Lightning have eight legitimate top six-caliber forwards in Point, Kucherov, Stamkos, Cirelli, Johnson, Palat, Gourde, and Killorn. Obviously only six can play there at a time. Point, Kuch, Stammer, and Cirelli have had permanent roles in the top six this season, while the other four have rotated between the second line and the bottom six. Early in the season Gourde found his way to the fourth line where he, Maroon, and Paquette sparked some chemistry; for a while they were actually our most effective line. Eventually they cooled off and, apparently with an eye to balancing his bottom six, Cooper left Gourde on the fourth line while playing Maroon and whichever of the other top six-caliber forwards wasn’t currently there on the third. While Gourde has been one of the best defensive and PK forwards in the league this season, playing with two offensively challenged rookies has naturally put a serious damper on his offense, leading clueless, uninformed, stat-watching fans of certain other teams to go so far as to ignorantly call him a cap dump. But I digress.

Obviously it would be great if we would get more offense out of both Gourde and whichever of Palat/Killorn/Johnson is currently relegated to the third line, and the obvious solution would be to put two of them together. The problem is there aren’t many combinations of those players that can truly be effective on their own, and whoever we put on their line as the third piece would be a weak point that would weigh them down. Consider the following:

Killorn: doesn’t drive the offense on his line and doesn’t mesh well with Johnson.
Johnson: a shooter but not much of a playmaker; doesn’t mesh well with Killorn.
Palat: a playmaker and a decent but not outstanding shooter who plays well with anybody.
Gourde: an offensive garbage man who crashes/sets up next to the net and looks for rebounds and cross-crease passes; won’t drive the offense himself but is an excellent complement to offensively skilled players.

If you look at the possible two-man combinations you get the following:

- Killorn/Johnson: just don’t have good chemistry on a line together. It’s been tried in the past and has never really worked, which was a big part of why Johnson was moved to the wing after Point took over the 2C (and later the 1C) spot, and why almost invariably when one of them has been on the second line this season the other has been on the third.
- Killorn/Palat: teamed up well earlier in the season on our two-way/shutdown line with Cirelli, but they’re not going accomplish a lot offensively while being centered by the likes of Paquette, Stephens, or Verhaeghe.
- Killorn/Gourde: in the past they had great success together on lines with both Point and Cirelli, but again they aren’t going to do much with Paquette, Stephens, or Verhaeghe. Alternatively Gourde could play center, but all that does is add the possibility of putting Maroon on their line, and despite Gourde’s and Maroon’s early season chemistry we’re still looking at three guys who really need somebody else driving the offense.
- Johnson/Palat: now here’s a combo with a long history of playing well together, and in fact they’re currently doing so on our second line. The problem is whoever we’d put with them on the third would be next to useless, as none of those guys has the speed or the offensive acumen to keep up with them.
- Johnson/Gourde: a shooter and a rebounder but without the point guard to set them up.
- Palat/Gourde: work well together but again they’d be dragged down by whoever joined them on the line; would also mean Killorn and Johnson would be playing together which as I’ve said isn’t a good combination.

So basically our best options for pairing those four players are Palat with Johnson and Killorn with Gourde; both combos have had a lot of success in the past and both work well with Cirelli on our second line. The problem is whichever pair ended up on our third line would be held back by whoever we put with them. Killorn and Gourde would be especially useless offensively as neither of them is the type to initiate the offense on his line; Palat and Johnson could at least get more done on their own but none of our assortment of true bottom sixers can play their sort of uptempo game. So Cooper’s been playing one of Johnson or Killorn on the third line and Gourde on the fourth in the hopes of having at least one decent scorer on each line, but it hasn’t worked well for Johnson or Killorn while they’ve been on the third line and it’s been downright catastrophic to Gourde’s offense on the fourth with Verhaeghe and Stephens.

Which is why the addition of Coleman is so huge for us. There are all sorts of ways now to arrange our top nine that could be effective, but whatever Cooper ultimately settles on we’re finally going to have a third line with three legitimate offensive threats on it. Instead of a bottom six consisting of two top-six forwards and four guys who belong on the bottom line, we now have the ability to roll out three true top six-caliber lines, with all our fourth liners actually playing where they belong. I still don’t like the price we paid for him but adding Coleman could make a much bigger difference than a lot of people think.
 
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AndreRoy

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Patrick Maroon.

He has his moments and I would not be surprised to see him make some beneficial contributions in the playoffs. But he doesn’t have the speed or the skill to play with our top guys. I like him better on the fourth line with (potentially) Paquette and Stephens, getting under other teams’ skin.
 

TBF1972

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May 19, 2018
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My thing is, is that TBL is a great team and Coleman isn't the missing piece. If TBL wins the cup this year, it's not cause of this addition. It was too steep of a price to pay. People will point towards TBL getting swept last year, but I think that was kind of a fluke. They could just as easily win the cup this year, with or without Coleman.
forgone conclusion :thumbu:
let's see how this ages.
 

Whoshattenkirkshoes

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Aug 11, 2014
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Why do you say that?

Coleman isn't a skilled player. He mostly put up more points due to getting prime mins on NJ. TBL is a stacked team where Coleman will be getting less mins and his point production will drop. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but he's average. The price was too much in my opinion.
Despite the 2019 playoffs, TBL is a great team. Coleman isn't going to be the difference TBL wins a cup. They could win it without him.
Yes but they got him because he is signed for 1.8 next year. This allows us to trade a player like Killorn, re coup assets and be cap compliant. Yes the price was high, but it is actually a great deal.
 

carosey12

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Sep 30, 2018
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Devils got a nice haul. N Foote and a 1st.
NO KIDDIN!....kerfoot is a similar player, with only 6 less points this year, but i believe he was also injured, so could leafs get a similar haul?.....lol...(tongue in cheek, SORTA)
 

spfan

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Yes but they got him because he is signed for 1.8 next year. This allows us to trade a player like Killorn, re coup assets and be cap compliant. Yes the price was high, but it is actually a great deal.

I disagree. I don't see Killorn getting a 1st rounder and a prospect like Foote(although admittedly, I'm not too high on).
 

spfan

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forgone conclusion :thumbu:
let's see how this ages.

I don't know if you understood what I was saying.

I can easily see TBL winning the cup. But it's not because of Coleman.
Coleman will have to be a major contributor to make believe TBL got the better end of the deal.
He'd have to be like what Bonino was to Pens in the 2016 playoffs.
 

Spoilers

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If the rumours are true about the Oilers offering a 1st for him I’d be shocked. That kinda goes against what Holland said early on about building the team.

Kinda glad Tampa picked him up.
 

DFC

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I don't know if you understood what I was saying.

I can easily see TBL winning the cup. But it's not because of Coleman.
Coleman will have to be a major contributor to make believe TBL got the better end of the deal.
He'd have to be like what Bonino was to Pens in the 2016 playoffs.

He's the type of player we've been missing though--basically what Callahan used to be, before his severe decline.
 

spfan

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If Killorn gets to 30 goals, he's getting a 1st.

Still not two 1sts.

He's the type of player we've been missing though--basically what Callahan used to be, before his severe decline.

I think they have plenty of good players for different roles. Maroon, Cirelli, Gourde, Killorn, Palat. I know the team is more than Kucherov, Stamkos, Point. It's really a positive I'm saying about TBL. That I think they were already a great team. It was an unnecessary move to me.
 

DFC

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Still not two 1sts.



I think they have plenty of good players for different roles. Maroon, Cirelli, Gourde, Killorn, Palat. I know the team is more than Kucherov, Stamkos, Point. It's really a positive I'm saying about TBL. That I think they were already a great team. It was an unnecessary move to me.
It's not unnecessary. Those stars have been too easy to shut down when we've come up against the wrong coach. That wasn't true in the years Palat was healthy (he wasnt healthy for the last two playoff runs). We need somebody who can open things up for them to be effective. Palat looks like he can do that again, and Coleman should be able to as well. This isn't Maroon. It's more like Callahan, before his decline.

But it's also about next year. This replaces Killorn.
 

spfan

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It's not unnecessary. Those stars have been too easy to shut down when we've come up against the wrong coach. That wasn't true in the years Palat was healthy (he wasnt healthy for the last two playoff runs). We need somebody who can open things up for them to be effective. Palat looks like he can do that again, and Coleman should be able to as well. This isn't Maroon. It's more like Callahan, before his decline.

But it's also about next year. This replaces Killorn.

No guarantee Coleman helps much.

And I'm not saying TBL can't win the cup. I just think if they do, it'll be because of other players.

Pens added Hossa and lost to DET in the finals. Then DET added Hossa and lost to Pens in the finals. On paper, the results should have been the opposite.
 

HoseEmDown

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Mar 25, 2012
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Still not two 1sts.



I think they have plenty of good players for different roles. Maroon, Cirelli, Gourde, Killorn, Palat. I know the team is more than Kucherov, Stamkos, Point. It's really a positive I'm saying about TBL. That I think they were already a great team. It was an unnecessary move to me.

Why do they need two 1sts for Killorn? Whatever we get for him is just extra. You need to look at this trade as a three team trade and not just Tampa and NJ. Vancouver traded a future 1st + 71st overall for Miller, Tampa trades Miller + 27th overall for Coleman + 71st overall, New Jersey trades Coleman for Vancouver future 1st + 27th overall. Vancouver was a team looking to take the next step and compete so they wanted help now and moved two picks for a player who would. Tampa needed capspace plus someone with more grit for their bottom 6. New Jersey is selling assets for futures. It's a win win win. So getting a 1st or 2nd + for Killorn doesn't matter in these trades.

They are a very good team but they still got swept last year and couldn't get past Washington and Pittsburgh before. They needed a little something else in the lineup and Coleman seems like that ingredient that they lacked. We will see in time if it works but the team is much better now and heading into the playoffs.
 

spfan

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Why do they need two 1sts for Killorn? Whatever we get for him is just extra. You need to look at this trade as a three team trade and not just Tampa and NJ. Vancouver traded a future 1st + 71st overall for Miller, Tampa trades Miller + 27th overall for Coleman + 71st overall, New Jersey trades Coleman for Vancouver future 1st + 27th overall. Vancouver was a team looking to take the next step and compete so they wanted help now and moved two picks for a player who would. Tampa needed capspace plus someone with more grit for their bottom 6. New Jersey is selling assets for futures. It's a win win win. So getting a 1st or 2nd + for Killorn doesn't matter in these trades.

They are a very good team but they still got swept last year and couldn't get past Washington and Pittsburgh before. They needed a little something else in the lineup and Coleman seems like that ingredient that they lacked. We will see in time if it works but the team is much better now and heading into the playoffs.

The guy I was replying to was saying it was fine what they gave up cause Killorn would get the assets back and I don't believe he'd be worth what they gave up for Coleman. Cause to me, Coleman wasn't even worth what they gave up.

I would have taken my chances with how TBL were and kept Foote and the 1st. Or made a better trade. Cause to me, that was too much for Coleman.
Yeah, they got swept last year, but easily could be a fluke. They could have won the cup without adding Coleman for all we know.
 

TBF1972

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May 19, 2018
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I don't know if you understood what I was saying.

I can easily see TBL winning the cup. But it's not because of Coleman.
Coleman will have to be a major contributor to make believe TBL got the better end of the deal.
He'd have to be like what Bonino was to Pens in the 2016 playoffs.
Exactly; let him play first. May he impacts also how his teammates play. None of us will be able to measure any players true impact after the games are played, but you are able to do so even before Coleman stepped on the ice for TBL.
 
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DFC

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No guarantee Coleman helps much.

And I'm not saying TBL can't win the cup. I just think if they do, it'll be because of other players.

Pens added Hossa and lost to DET in the finals. Then DET added Hossa and lost to Pens in the finals. On paper, the results should have been the opposite.
There are no guarantees on anyone. Worst case, we don't have to play a rookie in Killorn's spot next year. And that's not too bad.
 

Alan Wake

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Dec 14, 2017
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I don't know if you understood what I was saying.

I can easily see TBL winning the cup. But it's not because of Coleman.
Coleman will have to be a major contributor to make believe TBL got the better end of the deal.
He'd have to be like what Bonino was to Pens in the 2016 playoffs.
Let's aim realistically for now. Let's hope Tampa Bay wins a playoff game this year, and go from there.
 

DFC

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Looks like Coleman-Johnson-Gourde for now.

Solid grind line, should have some offense. I'm still hopeful Coleman gets a look in the top-6, but it's tough to mix and match player types when our Big 3 are all on the same line.
 

Pitaya

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Dec 14, 2019
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Looks like Coleman-Johnson-Gourde for now.

Solid grind line, should have some offense. I'm still hopeful Coleman gets a look in the top-6, but it's tough to mix and match player types when our Big 3 are all on the same line.
Besides his ES deployment, Coleman’s specialty is creating offense no matter what line hes on

Basically, Gourde and Johnson are about to see a slightly substantial increase in offensive production and pressure

There may not be many harder grinders in the league than Coleman
 
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Alan Wake

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If the rumours are true about the Oilers offering a 1st for him I’d be shocked. That kinda goes against what Holland said early on about building the team.

Kinda glad Tampa picked him up.
There's no question Colorado/Edmonton had firsts on the table for him. That's why they must have included Nolan in the trade. To get it done.
 

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