Confirmed Trade: [TBL/NJD] Devils trade Blake Coleman to Lightning for Nolan Foote, VAN 2020 1st

[DFC]

Another poster in here said it best. This is allowed to be both a good trade in terms of player fit for Tampa AND an overpayment for what they gave up. Coleman will bring an extra layer to an already dangerous team. Is he worth a 1st and a b prospect with NHL upside? No, not in a vacuum. He is, however, worth a 1st to a playoff team that had 2, a b prospect in a relatively deep prospect pool with replacement types already, for a team that needs a bit of sandpaper and some more scoring depth for (most importantly) cheap and with cost certainty for another yr. Yes, jersey got more for Coleman than what he should be worth on the open market, but the right set of circumstances absolutely facilitated said overpay. Both teams win (Tampa would be quite satisfied if they get a cup out of it)

This. Honestly, I DO NOT like the price tag. ...But I really want to win a cup. And if I could describe the attributes of a player that we need... this feels like the guy. And from what NJ fans are saying, it sounds like it might even be a better fit than Kreider (my dream acquisition), because I didn't want Kreider for his scoring so much as his ability to create chaos in front. It sounds like Coleman does that, but is more physical in other areas, so he could be a better fit.

So yeah. If this was the price we had to pay, then so be it. Hopefully we can flip Killorn to recoup the pick, or a similar pick, in June. Because Coleman will replace Killorn next year.

 

[spfan]

Wow, I overlooked this trade. I saw Coleman's name and just thought nothing of it. He's not a bad player at all, but I think his points are inflated by the fact that NJ has little skill on their team.
I don't think Nolan Foote should have even been drafted in the 1st , but to immediately give up on him, plus an entire other 1st round pick for a 3rd liner?? And like I said, Coleman was on a terrible team where he got more mins. He's going to a stacked team now where he's not going to be getting a big opportunity.
The 1st rounder will be a later pick. Nolan Foote, I'm not too big on. But this seems ridiculous for a 3rd liner.
TBL could certainly win the cup, but I don't see Coleman being the difference or still being worth this in the long term.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Wow, I overlooked this trade. I saw Coleman's name and just thought nothing of it. He's not a bad player at all, but I think his points are inflated by the fact that NJ has little skill on their team.
I don't think Nolan Foote should have even been drafted in the 1st , but to immediately give up on him, plus an entire other 1st round pick for a 3rd liner?? And like I said, Coleman was on a terrible team where he got more mins. He's going to a stacked team now where he's not going to be getting a big opportunity.
The 1st rounder will be a later pick. Nolan Foote, I'm not too big on. But this seems ridiculous for a 3rd liner.
TBL could certainly win the cup, but I don't see Coleman being the difference or still being worth this in the long term.

This seems like an oxymoron...

 

[BeingTheThunder]

People are making a lot of the likelihood Coleman is a 3rd liner but so what? Just so happens to be the piece we’ve been missing. We didn’t need to go out and get a stereotypical top six guy. The cap hit and remaining term made Coleman expensive in assets but we see teams giving top prospects and picks away every year for that missing piece. When we win the cup this year and next year, folks will be saying Steve Yzerman was riding JBB’s coat tails all along. Okay maybe that’s a bit much...

 

[405Exit]

Wow, I overlooked this trade. I saw Coleman's name and just thought nothing of it. He's not a bad player at all, but I think his points are inflated by the fact that NJ has little skill on their team.
I don't think Nolan Foote should have even been drafted in the 1st , but to immediately give up on him, plus an entire other 1st round pick for a 3rd liner?? And like I said, Coleman was on a terrible team where he got more mins. He's going to a stacked team now where he's not going to be getting a big opportunity.
The 1st rounder will be a later pick. Nolan Foote, I'm not too big on. But this seems ridiculous for a 3rd liner.
TBL could certainly win the cup, but I don't see Coleman being the difference or still being worth this in the long term.

I agree with this. New Jersey GM pulled a rabbit out of its hat on this trade. That first round pick is going to pay Dividends come June. And they aren’t done yet. Vatanen May go for another first. Depending on prices of RHD come deadline next week.

Wish someone had competence in the Ducks organization. All they do is draft good players and trade for horrible players. Not one fricken player has been a solid trade since Silfverberg. All of them have been declining. Anyways tangent off.

 

[spfan]

This seems like an oxymoron...

Why do you say that?

Coleman isn't a skilled player. He mostly put up more points due to getting prime mins on NJ. TBL is a stacked team where Coleman will be getting less mins and his point production will drop. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but he's average. The price was too much in my opinion.
Despite the 2019 playoffs, TBL is a great team. Coleman isn't going to be the difference TBL wins a cup. They could win it without him.

 

[spfan]

People are making a lot of the likelihood Coleman is a 3rd liner but so what? Just so happens to be the piece we’ve been missing. We didn’t need to go out and get a stereotypical top six guy. The cap hit and remaining term made Coleman expensive in assets but we see teams giving top prospects and picks away every year for that missing piece. When we win the cup this year and next year, folks will be saying Steve Yzerman was riding JBB’s coat tails all along. Okay maybe that’s a bit much...

My thing is, is that TBL is a great team and Coleman isn't the missing piece. If TBL wins the cup this year, it's not cause of this addition. It was too steep of a price to pay. People will point towards TBL getting swept last year, but I think that was kind of a fluke. They could just as easily win the cup this year, with or without Coleman.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Why do you say that?

Coleman isn't a skilled player. He mostly put up more points due to getting prime mins on NJ. TBL is a stacked team where Coleman will be getting less mins and his point production will drop. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but he's average. The price was too much in my opinion.
Despite the 2019 playoffs, TBL is a great team. Coleman isn't going to be the difference TBL wins a cup. They could win it without him.

That isn’t why. It’s because Coleman is a lot better then you are giving him credit for.

Team wants to win now? Coleman is the type of TDL player that can help make that a reality. If you have to overpay a bit to get it done, you do it.

 

[spfan]

That isn’t why. It’s because Coleman is a lot better then you are giving him credit for.

Team wants to win now? Coleman is the type of TDL player that can help make that a reality. If you have to overpay a bit to get it done, you do it.

I'm not saying Coleman sucks or anything, but TBL is stacked already. They have players like Cirelli, Killorn, Palat, Maroon to be the depth. If TBL wins the cup this year, this trade isn't going to be the reason why.

And I'm not hating on TBL at all. I think they were a favourite to win the cup before this trade. That's why I think it was unnecessary.

My own team did a similar trade with Zucker and I believe they overpaid for Zucker too. However I think Zucker brings a lot more than Coleman.

The Toffoli trade that just happened too shows me that TBL overpaid.

I don't think every trade is worth it even if the result is a Cup.

What if TBL gave up four 1sts for Coleman and they won the cup, is that still worth it just cause they happened to win the cup? I just simply think TBL was a good enough team already to not overpay for a player like this.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

brutal. not a fan of selling your future for another first round humiliation.

dumb. Foote 3 is not the future of the Lightning and they are winning the cup this year, i'd stake my life on it.

 

[AndreRoy]

My thing is, is that TBL is a great team and Coleman isn't the missing piece. If TBL wins the cup this year, it's not cause of this addition. It was too steep of a price to pay. People will point towards TBL getting swept last year, but I think that was kind of a fluke. They could just as easily win the cup this year, with or without Coleman.

I agree on the price. I like the acquisition, but either Foote or the Vancouver 1st should have been plenty; maybe add a lower pick or lesser prospect if necessary to outbid another team, but certainly not a 1st and our top prospect. Especially given how weak our system is in terms of forwards with real top six potential and how many aging top six forwards we currently have in our lineup. We’ve done fine the last few years with the turnover in our bottom six but we aren’t far from having to do the same at the top of the lineup and I just don’t see the pieces in place with which to do so.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

I'm not saying Coleman sucks or anything, but TBL is stacked already. They have players like Cirelli, Killorn, Palat, Maroon to be the depth. If TBL wins the cup this year, this trade isn't going to be the reason why.

And I'm not hating on TBL at all. I think they were a favourite to win the cup before this trade. That's why I think it was unnecessary.

My own team did a similar trade with Zucker and I believe they overpaid for Zucker too. However I think Zucker brings a lot more than Coleman.

The Toffoli trade that just happened too shows me that TBL overpaid.

I don't think every trade is worth it even if the result is a Cup.

What if TBL gave up four 1sts for Coleman and they won the cup, is that still worth it just cause they happened to win the cup? I just simply think TBL was a good enough team already to not overpay for a player like this.

Coleman is signed next year for $1.8 million. TT is a UFA next. Coleman should have returned more. Cap space is valuable to TB and they paid to get a great value contract. In both the Zucker and Coleman situations the buyer is likely to overpay because the seller is not under a time constraint. Kings had to trade TT by this upcoming Monday - Minny and NJ did not have to trade their player by the deadline.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I'm not saying Coleman sucks or anything, but TBL is stacked already. They have players like Cirelli, Killorn, Palat, Maroon to be the depth. If TBL wins the cup this year, this trade isn't going to be the reason why.

And I'm not hating on TBL at all. I think they were a favourite to win the cup before this trade. That's why I think it was unnecessary.

My own team did a similar trade with Zucker and I believe they overpaid for Zucker too. However I think Zucker brings a lot more than Coleman.

The Toffoli trade that just happened too shows me that TBL overpaid.

I don't think every trade is worth it even if the result is a Cup.

What if TBL gave up four 1sts for Coleman and they won the cup, is that still worth it just cause they happened to win the cup? I just simply think TBL was a good enough team already to not overpay for a player like this.

I don't necessarily think that's true.

And I say it's an oxymoron because good players on bad teams aren't better for being on a bad team. That nonsensical. A good player on a good team is going to produce more than a good player on a bad team.

Your point about minutes is valid. He will likely get fewer minutes. But on a better team, his points per 60 should actually improve.

 

[spfan]

I don't necessarily think that's true.

And I say it's an oxymoron because good players on bad teams aren't better for being on a bad team. That nonsensical. A good player on a good team is going to produce more than a good player on a bad team.

Your point about minutes is valid. He will likely get fewer minutes. But on a better team, his points per 60 should actually improve.

Yes I know TBL didn't need a Zucker or Toffoli type, but I don't think Coleman was needed either. TBL is a great team already and I just think two 1sts was too much for Coleman.

Players do benefit from better mins though. If you put a 4th liner on the 1st line, he's obviously not going to suddenly be elite. But you can get better opportunity for point production if you go from like 13 mins to 17 mins.

William Karlsson going from CBJ to VGK I think is a good example of this. He obviously was young and had more potential, but I don't think he would've gotten the opportunity had he stayed in CBJ. And it's not like CBJ or VGK were much of a difference in overall talent level.

 

[lawrence]

I think Zucker brings a lot more than Coleman

for the lightning I disagree. They needed a legit character player in their line up that can also play a grinding effort game. Having him in the 3rd line is better then Zucker in their 3rd line who is more offensive and less of a grinder.

 

[spfan]

for the lightning I disagree. They needed a legit character player in their line up that can also play a grinding effort game. Having him in the 3rd line is better then Zucker in their 3rd line who is more offensive and less of a grinder.

I said elsewhere that I'm aware TBL didn't need a Zucker or Toffoli. I'm just saying in general, I think Zucker is a bigger addition than Coleman and is worth more. And I was also saying I think my own team gave up too much for Zucker too. But that TBL really overpaid for Coleman.

 

[lawrence]

I said elsewhere that I'm aware TBL didn't need a Zucker or Toffoli. I'm just saying in general, I think Zucker is a bigger addition than Coleman and is worth more. And I was also saying I think my own team gave up too much for Zucker too. But that TBL really overpaid for Coleman.

yea I mentioned that too in that thread, Tampa giving up too much for Coleman in my opinion, and of course canucks trading too much for Toffoli although no 1st rounders involved.

that said, Tampa, Pittsburgh and Vancouver are better teams then they were 3 days ago with those additions.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

I said elsewhere that I'm aware TBL didn't need a Zucker or Toffoli. I'm just saying in general, I think Zucker is a bigger addition than Coleman and is worth more. And I was also saying I think my own team gave up too much for Zucker too. But that TBL really overpaid for Coleman.

There's a big difference between coming to a new team halfway into the year as a top 6 forward and a bottom 6 forward. For starters, Coleman can have a much easier time fitting in with his new team than Zucker because practically every bottom 6 in the league tries to play the same way whereas each team has their own top 6 offensive scheme, chemistry, etc and a permanent addition to that can have a big disruption. Many times top 6 or top 4 D acquisitions at the trade deadline don't find their footing by the playoffs and flame out. In Zucker's case that's unlikely since Guentzel's injury opened a spot directly for him and his general playing style is similar to what Penguins want from their wingers.

There's also a big difference between what a top 6 player brings with top 6 minutes, deployment and linemates vs a player like Coleman. If you give top 6 players 14-16 minutes a game, much of it defensive zone/shorthanded time, with bottom 6 linemates their game can severely fall off, in many cases they can't get their skating legs going at all (like Kovalchuk said). Yet teams still need to someone to play those minutes. If Coleman (who is basically a less pestilent Ryan Kesler before Kesler was a proven top 6 forward) can tilt the ice given the icetime and deployment he usually gets that can have an outsized impact compared to Zucker, as many teams have a Zucker level top 6 winger of their own to cancel Zucker out but most teams' bottom 6s are fly by the seat of their pants hastily constructed out of rookies, reclamation projects, etc. Now TB has Coleman scoring shorthanded goals, crashing the net, and keeping their top 6 players fresh while not disrupting their chemistry one bit. As a Penguins fan you probably remember how Staal was the 3rd most important forward on your team while he was there despite being completely unable to play the game via a skilled top 6 style because he could win faceoffs then grind and body his way forward with the puck as well as anyone in the NHL.

 

[spfan]

yea I mentioned that too in that thread, Tampa giving up too much for Coleman in my opinion, and of course canucks trading too much for Toffoli although no 1st rounders involved.

that said, Tampa, Pittsburgh and Vancouver are better teams then they were 3 days ago with those additions.

I think the VAN trade was fine. Toffoli could be re-signed. And less value went to LA than it did to NJ.

 

[spfan]

There's a big difference between coming to a new team halfway into the year as a top 6 forward and a bottom 6 forward. For starters, Coleman can have a much easier time fitting in with his new team than Zucker because practically every bottom 6 in the league tries to play the same way whereas each team has their own top 6 offensive scheme, chemistry, etc and a permanent addition to that can have a big disruption. Many times top 6 or top 4 D acquisitions at the trade deadline don't find their footing by the playoffs and flame out. In Zucker's case that's unlikely since Guentzel's injury opened a spot directly for him and his general playing style is similar to what Penguins want from their wingers.

There's also a big difference between what a top 6 player brings with top 6 minutes, deployment and linemates vs a player like Coleman. If you give top 6 players 14-16 minutes a game, much of it defensive zone/shorthanded time, with bottom 6 linemates their game can severely fall off, in many cases they can't get their skating legs going at all (like Kovalchuk said). Yet teams still need to someone to play those minutes. If Coleman (who is basically a less pestilent Ryan Kesler before Kesler was a proven top 6 forward) can tilt the ice given the icetime and deployment he usually gets that can have an outsized impact compared to Zucker, as many teams have a Zucker level top 6 winger of their own to cancel Zucker out but most teams' bottom 6s are fly by the seat of their pants hastily constructed out of rookies, reclamation projects, etc. Now TB has Coleman scoring shorthanded goals, crashing the net, and keeping their top 6 players fresh while not disrupting their chemistry one bit. As a Penguins fan you probably remember how Staal was the 3rd most important forward on your team while he was there despite being completely unable to play the game via a skilled top 6 style because he could win faceoffs then grind and body his way forward with the puck as well as anyone in the NHL.

I've said that I didn't even like what my own team gave up. However, Zucker has been a good addition so far.

Also, TBL already had depth players. Palat, Maroon, Cirelli, Killorn, Gourde. It's not like Coleman was desperately needed.

TBL could have won the cup just as easily without Coleman is my opinion.

 

[AndreRoy]

What Coleman gives us that we didn’t have before is the ability to roll three legitimate top six-caliber lines. Before all the recent injuries we’d been going with some variation of the following:

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov
Palat-Cirelli-Johnson
Killorn-Paquette-Maroon
Verhaeghe-Stephens-Gourde

That first line is the best in the NHL and the second is a strong two-way line that can handle opposing teams’ top lines while also scoring plenty themselves, but those bottom two lines while defensively responsible don’t exactly strike fear into anyone’s heart offensively. Now contrast that with this:

Stamkos-Point-Kucherov
Killorn-Cirelli-Coleman
Palat-Johnson-Gourde
Maroon-Paquette-Stephens

The first line remains the same, and the second while featuring different personnel at the wings is still a strong two-way line that can shut down opposing top lines while also being a threat offensively. But that third line now actually has some teeth to it, with speed and a good blend of offensive skill and defensive acumen. That’s a third line consisting entirely of players who have played significant roles in our top six both this year and last. And the fourth line, while not all that impressive offensively, has plenty of grit and is strong defensively.

I’m not saying those are necessarily the exact lines we’ll go with; the point is that the addition of Coleman gives us a lot of options and makes us a substantially deeper and more dangerous team.

 

[DFC]

Yes I know TBL didn't need a Zucker or Toffoli type, but I don't think Coleman was needed either. TBL is a great team already and I just think two 1sts was too much for Coleman.

Players do benefit from better mins though. If you put a 4th liner on the 1st line, he's obviously not going to suddenly be elite. But you can get better opportunity for point production if you go from like 13 mins to 17 mins.

William Karlsson going from CBJ to VGK I think is a good example of this. He obviously was young and had more potential, but I don't think he would've gotten the opportunity had he stayed in CBJ. And it's not like CBJ or VGK were much of a difference in overall talent level.

We don't need him to be elite. We need a guy who's physically capable of fighting his way to the net when our skill players make plays. We kind of need what Ryan Callahan used to be.

 

[Price is Wright]

Coleman is going to play top six and make things happen when the Bolts start slumping and grabbing their sticks too tight. Those goals will wake up the club when they need it. They got a difference maker at the right cap price. You give up for that.

 

[DFC]

Coleman is going to play top six and make things happen when the Bolts start slumping and grabbing their sticks too tight. Those goals will wake up the club when they need it. They got a difference maker at the right cap price. You give up for that.

This is my hope. Teams that shut us down tend to clog the front of the net, and guys who, in the regular season, can usually get through and do some damage suddenly can't once the refs put their whistles away. The re-emergence of Palat, plus Coleman, will hopefully help here.

I mean, our top-9 is pretty stacked. We can top load or balance three lines:

Coleman-Point-Stamkos
Palat-Cirelli-Kucherov
Killorn-Johnson-Gourde

Those left wingers are all interchangable.

 

[spfan]

We don't need him to be elite. We need a guy who's physically capable of fighting his way to the net when our skill players make plays. We kind of need what Ryan Callahan used to be.

Patrick Maroon.