Tavares Comparables

[vadim sharifijanov]

How is Hossa being a top 5 scorer an indication of bad competiton? He was a beast in his prime and better than many 80s players or Sundin and Tavares for that matter.

in general i think hossa and sundin are fairly comparable offensively. i don’t see him as a top five scorer in the league in, say, 1985 or 1996. do you?

 

[authentic]

in general i think hossa and sundin are fairly comparable offensively. i don’t see him as a top five scorer in the league in, say, 1985 or 1996. do you?

Not 1996, but possibly 1985. Even if not that's two seasons. The competition is not really relevant when comparing Sundin and Tavares though considering Sundin had his best seasons when the competition wasn't any better. Mid 90s are the only time when the competition was clearly better at the top than before or after IMO, and 2001-02 (Sundin's best) and 2014-15 (Tavares' best) are both the worst.

 

[authentic]

Also Hossa put up 100 and 90 point seasons while Sundin was still posting 75-80.

 

[tony d]

Dale Hawerchuk. One of the best players but not the best player in the league, changed teams about 1/2 way through his career.

 

[Iapyi]

Hawerchuk is a really good comparison playing style wise.

Doing a player comparison based on points is absurd.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Luc Robitaille

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Sundin seems to get better every year in how people tell it. At some point some loons might say he's on a level with Fedorov.

 

[billybudd]

It’s reflective of an era when Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos were injured often and Ovechkin has big chunks of his overall game fall by the wayside. There was pretty much no year when all of those guys were firing on all cylinders at once.

That's an argument that could be made of Sundin as well. Lemieux and Lindros were hurt pretty much constantly (and Mario sat out 4 entire seasons of Sundin's prime). Kariya wasn't very healthy, either.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Dale Hawerchuk. One of the best players but not the best player in the league, changed teams about 1/2 way through his career.

hawerchuk is a good comp, both style and ability wise.

but man if tavares plays at the level of buffalo hawerchuk from here on in, and that’s a decent possibility tbh and not entirely a bad thing either, a million leafs fans are going to be pissed.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One nice thing about the Sundin comp for me is that both players are so much better in person than they are on TV...I didn't fully appreciate Sundin until I saw him live, even though it was pretty late career Sundin, it was still so much different than what I was watching every Saturday night...really had his stock rise in my book after that...

 

[VanIslander]

Hmm.. a 9-year veteran who was once an all star, was 3rd, 4th, 10th in goals, 9th and 9th in assists, ...

Somewhere between an Alexei Yashin or Eric Staal and... a Brad Richards or Dale Hawerchuk.

Hawerchuk
Richards
.
.
Tavares
.
.
Alexei Yashin
Eric Staal

(To be clear: in terms of career to date)

 

[Boxscore]

In terms of comparable in style, I've always likened Tavares to a hybrid of Ron Francis and Luc Robitaille. I don't see the Sundin comparison at all... Sundin was way more swift, dynamic and elegant than Tavares. Tavares in more North-South, meats and potatoes, with excellent instincts and hands in close like Francis and Robitaille.

 

[psycat]

Sundin seems to get better every year in how people tell it. At some point some loons might say he's on a level with Fedorov.

While I might agree with you it's kinda funny that you use Fedorov as an example as he is infact himself getting better and better every year, horribly overrated player(It's like if Hall would have a decline now and then play at a 60pts pace for the rest of his career but people would say he always played like he did in his Hart year).

 

[The Panther]

Sundin seems to get better every year in how people tell it. At some point some loons might say he's on a level with Fedorov.

Oh, he was definitely on a level with Fedorov. Why not?

Fedorov definitely had the higher single NHL season, as you can't beat the Hart, Pearson, and Selke in the same year.

But looking at 1st and 2nd-team All Star selections, Sundin has two and Fedorov only one.

Somebody did a statistical study of point-scoring a while back on this forum, and I think Sundin emerged as the 1st or 2nd most consistent scorer in NHL history. He had his big 114-point year with Quebec in the big-scoring 1992-93 season, and after that he settled into a 75 to 94-point season every year from 1993 to 2008. That's 16 seasons in a row of around a PPG or better, whereas Fedorov had maybe 8 seasons at those levels.

As Fedorov played on a better team (partly due to the free-agency era, although Toronto had enough coin to sign players too), he naturally had way more playoff games, and in these he performed very well. But Sundin's playoff stats are very similar on a per game basis, and my understanding is that Sundin is a bit of a legendary performer in international hockey -- better than Fedorov. Looking at his stats at World Cups, World Championships, and Olympics, it's pretty impressive.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

While I might agree with you it's kinda funny that you use Fedorov as an example as he is infact himself getting better and better every year, horribly overrated player(It's like if Hall would have a decline now and then play at a 60pts pace for the rest of his career but people would say he always played like he did in his Hart year).

in this comparison, does taylor hall also have four straight 20 point playoffs, three cups, lead two teams that went to the finals in scoring, and have a 20 point lead on his closest teammate in scoring over a three cup, four finals, five conference finals in eight years stretch?

 

[psycat]

in this comparison, does taylor hall also have four straight 20 point playoffs, three cups, lead two teams that went to the finals in scoring, and have a 20 point lead on his closest teammate in scoring over a three cup, four finals, five conference finals in eight years stretch?

Most of this is totally cherry picked stuff though. Sure Fedorov was a good playoff performer but when you have people who actually say that he should be ranked above Sakic you know he is overrated.

I mean Sundin had a quite stellar career himself.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Most of this is totally cherry picked stuff though. Sure Fedorov was a good playoff performer but when you have people who actually say that he should be ranked above Sakic you know he is overrated.

I mean Sundin had a quite stellar career himself.

speaking of picking cherries...

i think there’s a pretty big gap btw saying fedorov is better than sakic and saying he’s better than sundin (or what i project for taylor hall).

 

[psycat]

speaking of picking cherries...

i think there’s a pretty big gap btw saying fedorov is better than sakic and saying he’s better than sundin (or what i project for taylor hall).

Sure but the point is that the poster says "Sundin get better every year in how people tell it" when the same could very much be said for Fedorov.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sure but the point is that the poster says "Sundin get better every year in how people tell it" when the same could very much be said for Fedorov.

i’m not sure how telling us that fedorov is overrated invalidates the previous claim that sundin is overrated.

but then i guess id really gaf either

 

[psycat]

i’m not sure how telling us that fedorov is overrated invalidates the previous claim that sundin is overrated.

but then i guess id really gaf either

Well I mean he was the one who brought Fedorov up for some reason.

 

[Staniowski]

Sundin seems to get better every year in how people tell it. At some point some loons might say he's on a level with Fedorov.

I never thought Fedorov was a lot better than Sundin. Why do you think he was?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Well I mean he was the one who brought Fedorov up for some reason.

like i said i don’t care about your sundin argument. i was just commenting on your fedorov-hall analogy.

 

[Boxscore]

I never thought Fedorov was a lot better than Sundin. Why do you think he was?

"A lot better"? I agree. Never thought Fedorov was a lot better than Sundin either. Although, I think there is a very legit case to make that he was "better." I'll say this, personally, Sundin is one of my top-5 favorite players to ever play the game - Fedorov is not. But I'm going to try and be completely unbiased here. I'll break this down into two categories: ACHIEVEMENTS and THE EYE TEST...

1. ACHIEVEMENTS

Why Sergei Fedorov was better:
- (3) Stanley Cups vs. (0) Cups for Sundin
- (2) Selke trophies vs. (0) for Sundin
- (1) Hart trophy vs. (0) for Sundin
- (1) Ted Lindsay Award vs. (0) for Sundin
- 36 shorthanded goals (8th all-time) vs. 31 for Sundin (20th all-time)

Why Mats Sundin was better:
- Above a point-per-game throughout entire career vs. Fedorov being under a point-per-game
- (15) seasons of 70 points or more vs. (6) 70+ point seasons for Fedorov
- (8) All-Star games vs. (6) for Fedorov
- 96 game-winning goals (12th all-time) vs. 93 for Fedorov (14th all-time)
- 160 powerplay goals (36th all-time) vs. 144 for Fedorov (57th all-time)
- "Adjusted Points"... Sundin = 1,410 (18th all-time) vs. Fedorov = 1,226 (40th all-time)

When it comes to playoffs, these guys were close. Fedorov edged Sundin in points-per-game (0.96 vs. 0.92). However, Sundin edged Fedorov in the following two departments: Overtime goals (2 vs. 1) and Hat-tricks (8 vs. 6).

2. THE EYE TEST

Why Sergei Fedorov was better:
- Fedorov was one of the prettiest (and fastest) skaters in NHL history
- Fedorov was a 200 foot demon, who was so versatile and responsible, he even took shifts on defense on occasion
- Fedorov's wrist shot was lethal, he would pick a corner with ease and fire lasers under the bar at will
- Fedorov was more of an artist on the ice, in the mold of Perreault, Lafleur, etc. but even better in both ends of the rink

Why Mats Sundin was better:
- Sundin was bigger and stronger than Fedorov. Blessed with a 6-5, 230 frame, Sundin was a monster to defend physically
- Sundin's backhander was among the very best in NHL history
- Sundin's reach was almost Lemieux-like, and he used it to beat defenders and goaltenders one-on-one, like Mario
- Sundin seemed to carry his teams on his back, while Fedorov was loaded with help in HHOFers like Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Fetisov, etc.
- Sundin was extremely consistent. He played 18 years in the NHL and in only 2 years did he not score at a 70+ point pace... his rookie year, and his final year in Vancouver. Amazing. The guy was a horse.
- On the International Stage, Sundin was money. Even though his team was full of icons, mainly Forsberg and Lidstrom, Sundin was often the best player on the ice for Sweden.

3. CONCLUSION

In my opinion, this is a very close call. When it comes to career achievements and hardware, Fedorov clearly bests Sundin. That said, Fedorov also had the luxury for playing with some of the greatest players of his generation, and being coached by Scotty Bowman. Detroit was considered an elite team during most of Fedorov's time there, and he received a ton of due credit. Conversely, Sundin played on some average Leafs teams and many years had to do everything for his club. I know it's the "what if" game, but you need to ask: If Sundin and Fedorov swapped teams, how would their careers have turned out? There's no way to know, but Sundin did have his best year (scoring 114) while finally playing with some awesome talent in Quebec... he was traded that summer. Sundin went to 2 more All-Star games than Fedorov as well.

As for statistical accomplishments, this is where Mats fares extremely well, and edges Fedorov in many departments. Sundin's consistency was scary good. He was a bull that you could build a franchise around and he was strong enough to carry it on his back. The eye test is tricky as there are cases to be made for either player - I think this comes down to TOMATO, TOMAHTO - which style of player do you prefer? Do you want to build around the 200 foot Selke winner that could dazzle the crowd and skate like the wind? Or would you like to build around the 6-5, 225+ pound monster who is extremely durable, consistent, and capable of carrying your team, while captaining it?

Personally, watching both of these players closely their entire careers, I would choose Sundin over Fedorov if building a team from scratch. Then I would surround Mats with talent, including some high-end 200 foot, defensive players to give me some of what I'm losing in passing on Fedorov. But that's just me - I love big, strong centers who can play any style: finesse, physical, tight-checking, intimidating, etc. Consistency is also huge for me. Sundin was a rock you could bank on 24/7/365.

All of that said, if I were to put my personal preference aside, I think looking at the Championships, the Selke's and the MVP, Sergei Fedorov makes the case for being the better all-around player. Even though Mats has him in production and consistency, the gap isn't wide enough to overrule Fedorov's trophy case.