Tampa: Swap Stamkos and Kucherov on/off the LTIR?

[feffan]

I think it's cute some think u can just place a player on LTIR without the league and insurance companies checking up if it's a real injurie keeping them from playing...

 

[Conbon]

How convenient. Why have a salary cap if teams like Tampa Bay can use LTIR to clearly circumvent the cap? What happens next season when the Lightning cannot make trades to get under the cap? This season it was Kucherov that was conveniently injured for just the regular season; next year will it be Stamkos or Vasilevskii?

NHL set the precedent with Chicago constant circumvention without punishment why start with Tampa?

 

[AndreRoy]

No, I'm actually suggesting that a significant number of NHLers play injured constantly. They're highly competitive, which makes them prone to making decisions that would potentially be detrimental to their long-term health.

In respect to the LTIR, these 'healthy' players would immediately qualify if they could be convinced to not play.

And you think these “highly competitive” players, who are willing to make “decisions that would potentially be detrimental to their long-term health” in order to play in and win hockey games, could “be convinced to not play” an entire season just so their teams can temporarily keep a lesser player or two? Not only that, but that a top three forward in the league would go along with such a scheme?

 

[Chips]

What is the probability that a player would be ready for game 1 of the playoffs and not any of the games of the regular season or any of the later games of the playoffs? We’ll see when he actually returns but if it’s game one then we’ll know all the overly defensive Tampa stans really did just protest too much

What's to say he's not coming back early, less than 100%, day 1 of the playoffs? since players play injured anyway, and or rush back from injuries less than 100%


Nobody said the timing wasn't convenient or that the bolts weren't aware of it. The length of time given for his recovery is typical for the surgery, and the length of the covid season was about the normal length of the surgery lol

But if he was actually injured, which was known a while, and had surgery, that's what the rules for.


Even approaching the "probability" angle, how many player get injrued on how many teams every season? is it really impossible to comprehend eventually a player being ready around any particular game? lol its not "suspicious" inherently, and especially not when they've been publicly transparent about when he'd return.

 

[Nihiliste]

What's to say he's not coming back early, less than 100%, day 1 of the playoffs? since players play injured anyway, and or rush back from injuries less than 100%


Nobody said the timing wasn't convenient or that the bolts weren't aware of it. The length of time given for his recovery is typical for the surgery, and the length of the covid season was about the normal length of the surgery lol

But if he was actually injured, which was known a while, and had surgery, that's what the rules for.


Even approaching the "probability" angle, how many player get injrued on how many teams every season? is it really impossible to comprehend eventually a player being ready around any particular game? lol its not "suspicious" inherently, and especially not when they've been publicly transparent about when he'd return.

if he were healthy enough to come back “not 100%” day one of the playoffs then he’s probably healthy enough to come back the last game of the regular season and therefore you would be admitting that the reason to hold him out the extra game would be cap circumvention

 

[CaptBrannigan]

if he were healthy enough to come back “not 100%” day one of the playoffs then he’s probably healthy enough to come back the last game of the regular season and therefore you would be admitting that the reason to hold him out the extra game would be cap circumvention

That’s not reality at all. How many times do you hear about an injured player “if it were playoffs he’d be in”. Numerous.

Players and teams are more likely to stretch what can be played through in the playoffs vs the regular season. This has always been true.

 

[Nihiliste]

That’s not reality at all. How many times do you hear about an injured player “if it were playoffs he’d be in”. Numerous.

Players and teams are more likely to stretch what can be played through in the playoffs vs the regular season. This has always been true.

your point might be meaningful if they didn’t use that excuse to ice a non compliant roster all season long

 

[CaptBrannigan]

your point might be meaningful if they didn’t use that excuse to ice a non compliant roster all season long

I don’t see what the year long roster (that is compliant with league rules) has to do with game 1 playoff readiness.

If a player is at 80% health/recovery, it’s routine to expect a different lineup decision in the regular season vs playoffs. If a player is less than 100%, you don’t have to remove from IR or LTIR. Until it’s proven a 100% healthy player is on either of those lists, there’s nothing wrong.

 

[Nihiliste]

I don’t see what the year long roster (that is compliant with league rules) has to do with game 1 playoff readiness.

If a player is at 80% health/recovery, it’s routine to expect a different lineup decision in the regular season vs playoffs. If a player is less than 100%, you don’t have to remove from IR or LTIR. Until it’s proven a 100% healthy player is on either of those lists, there’s nothing wrong.

Lol this is one of those things that you can do any amount of mental gymnastics to justify when it suits you as a fan, but has no bearing on reality. If he comes back game 1 then you’d be hard pressed to explain why he wasn’t healthy enough to meet the minimum standard of readiness to be cleared by medical staff for the last game of the season (at least). Now if he comes back some random amount of time into the playoffs, that’s a different story.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Lol this is one of those things that you can do any amount of mental gymnastics to justify when it suits you as a fan, but has no bearing on reality. If he comes back game 1 then you’d be hard pressed to explain why he wasn’t healthy enough to meet the minimum standard of readiness to be cleared by medical staff for the last game of the season (at least). Now if he comes back some random amount of time into the playoffs, that’s a different story.

They don't have to do any explaining. They aren't breaking any rules even if he comes back game 1.

 

[Nihiliste]

They don't have to do any explaining. They aren't breaking any rules even if he comes back game 1.

lol I’m not claiming that they’re breaking rules any more than teams who used back diving contracts when they were allowed. I just believe we should call a spade a spade. Hossa might have conveniently developed a career ending equipment allergy at the exact moment that he and the team needed it and Kucherov might coincidentally meet the minimum requirements to be medically cleared for game 1 and not a day sooner or later... but I wouldn’t bet money on it.

 

[CaptBrannigan]

Lol this is one of those things that you can do any amount of mental gymnastics to justify when it suits you as a fan, but has no bearing on reality. If he comes back game 1 then you’d be hard pressed to explain why he wasn’t healthy enough to meet the minimum standard of readiness to be cleared by medical staff for the last game of the season (at least). Now if he comes back some random amount of time into the playoffs, that’s a different story.

You’re wrong on the first part, as I had no problem with the Kane Chicago 2015 situation, to the direct detriment of my fandom.

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about a less than 100% player being ready to play in the playoffs but not in the regular season. Not hard pressed to understand it at all when you remember the numerous players every year that “he wouldn’t have played if it were the regular season” situations that arise every year.

 

[Nihiliste]

You’re wrong on the first part, as I had no problem with the Kane Chicago 2015 situation, to the direct detriment of my fandom.

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about a less than 100% player being ready to play in the playoffs but not in the regular season. Not hard pressed to understand it at all when you remember the numerous players every year that “he wouldn’t have played if it were the regular season” situations that arise every year.

Because there’s more context to this situation than a guy getting hurt at some point in the season and then forcing an early comeback for the playoffs

 

[drktmplr12]

i think it is naive to think he was going to effectively rehabilitate the same injury three other TBL players had to have surgery for (successful btw). any argument using this as a basis is suspect to me since it relies on a premise that doesn't make logical sense.

(1) he is a competitor, (2) wants to play, and (3) there's a precedence set suggesting successful surgery is likely with 8-10 weeks recovery-the obvious choice is to have surgery in mid-October and be 80-90% recovered by January and ready to ice February. this course would minimize downtime and maximize the possibility of a positive outcome.

except doing so certainly would have forced the GM to make some difficult decisions. this is an irrefutable fact.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I wasn't the one that suggested the scenario.

If that player happened to injure himself permanently in that situation, he'd be in a position where he could probably pursue legal action against the team.

Like I said: read the CBA. You might learn something.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think it's cute some think u can just place a player on LTIR without the league and insurance companies checking up if it's a real injurie keeping them from playing...

No matter how many times someone wants to claim a player on LTIR is getting paid by insurance, the fact is ...... you know what, I won't even bother. Hell, even talking about someone's injury is probably It's probably a HIPPA violation - and since all of you are in this thread, you're all going down for RICO too.

NHL set the precedent with Chicago constant circumvention without punishment why start with Tampa?

1. You presume the league has any interest in being consistent. That should have been blown out of the water after letting numerous pretty obvious cap-circumventing contracts go, but then crucifying the Devils for the Kovalchuk contract.

2. You presume the league actually has interest in levying punishment for materially violating the salary cap, whether in actual terms or in spirit. As I keep saying, the league's continued refusal to take any kind of action to apply Article 26 (penalties for circumventing the cap) in reference to Article 50 (the salary cap system) is a feature, not a bug.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

i think it is naive to think he was going to effectively rehabilitate the same injury three other TBL players had to have surgery for (successful btw). any argument using this as a basis is suspect to me since it relies on a premise that doesn't make logical sense.

(1) he is a competitor, (2) wants to play, and (3) there's a precedence set suggesting successful surgery is likely with 8-10 weeks recovery-the obvious choice is to have surgery in mid-October and be 80-90% recovered by January and ready to ice February. this course would minimize downtime and maximize the possibility of a positive outcome.

except doing so certainly would have forced the GM to make some difficult decisions. this is an irrefutable fact.

8-10 weeks? The typical timeline for this surgery is much longer than that.

Look at Seguin. He hasn't played a game yet and had his surgery well before Kucherov.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Because there’s more context to this situation than a guy getting hurt at some point in the season and then forcing an early comeback for the playoffs

Here is a list of non-compliant teams this season because of LTIR:

Tampa
Edmonton
Toronto
Anaheim
Boston
Chicago
Colorado
Dallas
Florida
Montreal
Nashville
NY Islanders
Pittsburgh
St Louis
Vancouver
Vegas
Washington
Winnipeg

Why aren't you whining about them? Majority of the league would be over the cap if it wasn't for players being on LTIR. But...you know...reasons right? EVERY SINGLE LTIR PLACEMENT is reviewed by the league, by doctors and the insurance company. You honestly think, some insurance company is happily going to pay out 4M to Kucherov for faking the injury? You think any GM in the league or any member of the BOG will complain that they are able to use LTIR, because the fact is 18/31 Teams are using LTIR.

Kucherov needed the surgery. Got the surgery. He isn't 100% and doesn't need to rush back because Tampa is still in the playoffs. If lets say he is 75% right now, and by game 1 he's 85%, He and the team is better off to wait until he's 85%.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

i think it is naive to think he was going to effectively rehabilitate the same injury three other TBL players had to have surgery for (successful btw). any argument using this as a basis is suspect to me since it relies on a premise that doesn't make logical sense.

(1) he is a competitor, (2) wants to play, and (3) there's a precedence set suggesting successful surgery is likely with 8-10 weeks recovery-the obvious choice is to have surgery in mid-October and be 80-90% recovered by January and ready to ice February. this course would minimize downtime and maximize the possibility of a positive outcome.

except doing so certainly would have forced the GM to make some difficult decisions. this is an irrefutable fact.

This injury has a recovery time of 5-6 months. Where the hell did you pull 8-10 weeks out of?

Maybe just for the surgery itself. To get back into game shape it takes another few months of rehab. Point had the same surgery, came back early and looked like shit.

Pastrnak underwent a right hip arthroscopy and labral repair on Sept. 16. His expected recovery time was five months, which would be in the middle of February. He came back like a week or two early. Still 5 months.

Seguin is still out and he had surgery for the same issue in November. He's at 6 months now.

 

[belair]

Like I said: read the CBA. You might learn something.

Like I said, I didn't suggest the scenario where the team forced a player to play. If I did, I'd be invested enough to read that portion of the CBA, but I didn't. If a player didn't feel healthy enough to play, they wouldn't.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Like I said, I didn't suggest the scenario where the team forced a player to play. If I did, I'd be invested enough to read that portion of the CBA, but I didn't. If a player didn't feel healthy enough to play, they wouldn't.

No, what you said is "if a team forced a player to play knowing he was hurt, the player could pursue legal action against the team." Which, I've now quoted twice.

The CBA, which you apparently can't be bothered to read because you're not "invested enough," pretty clearly outlines that a player who is injured cannot be compelled to play anyway and a team cannot take punitive actions against the player when he says he's unable to play due to injury or illness. Not to mention, a player who believes he's injured but who the team's doctor's say he's not always has the right to seek a second opinion elsewhere and, in the event the second opinion doesn't match the first, and if that opinion differs from the team will get a third opinion by someone selected by both the team and the player (player's agent) that will decide which of the two differing opinions is valid. Thus, there is zero incentive for a team to lie about a player's actual physical condition knowing it could be overruled by examinations done by other parties.

Read more. Guess less.

 

[belair]

No, what you said is "if a team forced a player to play knowing he was hurt, the player could pursue legal action against the team." Which, I've now quoted twice.

The CBA, which you apparently can't be bothered to read because you're not "invested enough," pretty clearly outlines that a player who is injured cannot be compelled to play anyway and a team cannot take punitive actions against the player when he says he's unable to play due to injury or illness. Not to mention, a player who believes he's injured but who the team's doctor's say he's not always has the right to seek a second opinion elsewhere and, in the event the second opinion doesn't match the first, and if that opinion differs from the team will get a third opinion by someone selected by both the team and the player (player's agent) that will decide which of the two differing opinions is valid. Thus, there is zero incentive for a team to lie about a player's actual physical condition knowing it could be overruled by examinations done by other parties.

Read more. Guess less.

And it was a response to a post that suggested Edmonton forced Oscar Klefbom to play when he might've been convinced that he wasn't healthy enough. I don't care what the CBA says because it was a ridiculous suggestion in the first place. And what you've provided here shows how ridiculous it was.

You should be showing this to the person who initially suggested it.

 

[AndreRoy]

i think it is naive to think he was going to effectively rehabilitate the same injury three other TBL players had to have surgery for (successful btw). any argument using this as a basis is suspect to me since it relies on a premise that doesn't make logical sense.

(1) he is a competitor, (2) wants to play, and (3) there's a precedence set suggesting successful surgery is likely with 8-10 weeks recovery-the obvious choice is to have surgery in mid-October and be 80-90% recovered by January and ready to ice February. this course would minimize downtime and maximize the possibility of a positive outcome.

except doing so certainly would have forced the GM to make some difficult decisions. this is an irrefutable fact.

You talk about logic: re-read your points 1 and 2 and tell me if it is logical that such a player (and especially one of the very best in the NHL) would willingly and unnecessarily give up his season just so his team can save the picks and/or prospects it would take to become cap compliant.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

And it was a response to a post that

Stop. Take the L already. Admit you posted something wrong, move on. If you want it sent to someone else, you figure out the copy/paste function in Windows and do it yourself.

 

[belair]

Stop. Take the L already. Admit you posted something wrong, move on. If you want it sent to someone else, you figure out the copy/paste function in Windows and do it yourself.

It's not my fault you don't understand how threads work, bud. My response was a post to someone who suggested a ridiculous theory. You decided to quote my response instead of the initial post. Nobody asked for your info or your response.

It clearly didn't add anything.

What you pulled out of the CBA is essentially the same logic as an employee refusing unsafe work. You don't need the CBA to know that an employer can't force their employee to do anything that could put their health at risk.

Enjoy the W, weird CBA guy.