Tampa: Swap Stamkos and Kucherov on/off the LTIR?

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Mach2, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. feffan Registered User

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    I think it's cute some think u can just place a player on LTIR without the league and insurance companies checking up if it's a real injurie keeping them from playing...
     
  2. Conbon Registered User

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    NHL set the precedent with Chicago constant circumvention without punishment why start with Tampa?
     
  3. AndreRoy Registered User

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    And you think these “highly competitive” players, who are willing to make “decisions that would potentially be detrimental to their long-term health” in order to play in and win hockey games, could “be convinced to not play” an entire season just so their teams can temporarily keep a lesser player or two? Not only that, but that a top three forward in the league would go along with such a scheme?
     
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  4. Chips Registered User

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    What's to say he's not coming back early, less than 100%, day 1 of the playoffs? since players play injured anyway, and or rush back from injuries less than 100%


    Nobody said the timing wasn't convenient or that the bolts weren't aware of it. The length of time given for his recovery is typical for the surgery, and the length of the covid season was about the normal length of the surgery lol

    But if he was actually injured, which was known a while, and had surgery, that's what the rules for.


    Even approaching the "probability" angle, how many player get injrued on how many teams every season? is it really impossible to comprehend eventually a player being ready around any particular game? lol its not "suspicious" inherently, and especially not when they've been publicly transparent about when he'd return.
     
  5. Nihiliste Registered User

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    if he were healthy enough to come back “not 100%” day one of the playoffs then he’s probably healthy enough to come back the last game of the regular season and therefore you would be admitting that the reason to hold him out the extra game would be cap circumvention
     
  6. CaptBrannigan Registered User

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    That’s not reality at all. How many times do you hear about an injured player “if it were playoffs he’d be in”. Numerous.

    Players and teams are more likely to stretch what can be played through in the playoffs vs the regular season. This has always been true.
     
  7. Nihiliste Registered User

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    your point might be meaningful if they didn’t use that excuse to ice a non compliant roster all season long
     
  8. CaptBrannigan Registered User

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    I don’t see what the year long roster (that is compliant with league rules) has to do with game 1 playoff readiness.

    If a player is at 80% health/recovery, it’s routine to expect a different lineup decision in the regular season vs playoffs. If a player is less than 100%, you don’t have to remove from IR or LTIR. Until it’s proven a 100% healthy player is on either of those lists, there’s nothing wrong.
     
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  9. Nihiliste Registered User

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    Lol this is one of those things that you can do any amount of mental gymnastics to justify when it suits you as a fan, but has no bearing on reality. If he comes back game 1 then you’d be hard pressed to explain why he wasn’t healthy enough to meet the minimum standard of readiness to be cleared by medical staff for the last game of the season (at least). Now if he comes back some random amount of time into the playoffs, that’s a different story.
     
  10. CupsOverCash Registered User

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    They don't have to do any explaining. They aren't breaking any rules even if he comes back game 1.
     
  11. Nihiliste Registered User

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    lol I’m not claiming that they’re breaking rules any more than teams who used back diving contracts when they were allowed. I just believe we should call a spade a spade. Hossa might have conveniently developed a career ending equipment allergy at the exact moment that he and the team needed it and Kucherov might coincidentally meet the minimum requirements to be medically cleared for game 1 and not a day sooner or later... but I wouldn’t bet money on it.
     
  12. CaptBrannigan Registered User

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    You’re wrong on the first part, as I had no problem with the Kane Chicago 2015 situation, to the direct detriment of my fandom.

    I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about a less than 100% player being ready to play in the playoffs but not in the regular season. Not hard pressed to understand it at all when you remember the numerous players every year that “he wouldn’t have played if it were the regular season” situations that arise every year.
     
  13. Nihiliste Registered User

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    Because there’s more context to this situation than a guy getting hurt at some point in the season and then forcing an early comeback for the playoffs
     
  14. drktmplr12 Registered User

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    i think it is naive to think he was going to effectively rehabilitate the same injury three other TBL players had to have surgery for (successful btw). any argument using this as a basis is suspect to me since it relies on a premise that doesn't make logical sense.

    (1) he is a competitor, (2) wants to play, and (3) there's a precedence set suggesting successful surgery is likely with 8-10 weeks recovery-the obvious choice is to have surgery in mid-October and be 80-90% recovered by January and ready to ice February. this course would minimize downtime and maximize the possibility of a positive outcome.

    except doing so certainly would have forced the GM to make some difficult decisions. this is an irrefutable fact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  15. Ted Hoffman Yes, I really am better than you.

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    Like I said: read the CBA. You might learn something.
     
  16. Ted Hoffman Yes, I really am better than you.

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    You will never know.
    No matter how many times someone wants to claim a player on LTIR is getting paid by insurance, the fact is ...... you know what, I won't even bother. Hell, even talking about someone's injury is probably It's probably a HIPPA violation - and since all of you are in this thread, you're all going down for RICO too.

    1. You presume the league has any interest in being consistent. That should have been blown out of the water after letting numerous pretty obvious cap-circumventing contracts go, but then crucifying the Devils for the Kovalchuk contract.

    2. You presume the league actually has interest in levying punishment for materially violating the salary cap, whether in actual terms or in spirit. As I keep saying, the league's continued refusal to take any kind of action to apply Article 26 (penalties for circumventing the cap) in reference to Article 50 (the salary cap system) is a feature, not a bug.
     
  17. VinikToWinIt Big Bad Lightning

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    8-10 weeks? The typical timeline for this surgery is much longer than that.

    Look at Seguin. He hasn't played a game yet and had his surgery well before Kucherov.
     
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  18. DistantThunderRep Registered User

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    Here is a list of non-compliant teams this season because of LTIR:

    Tampa
    Edmonton
    Toronto
    Anaheim
    Boston
    Chicago
    Colorado
    Dallas
    Florida
    Montreal
    Nashville
    NY Islanders
    Pittsburgh
    St Louis
    Vancouver
    Vegas
    Washington
    Winnipeg

    Why aren't you whining about them? Majority of the league would be over the cap if it wasn't for players being on LTIR. But...you know...reasons right? EVERY SINGLE LTIR PLACEMENT is reviewed by the league, by doctors and the insurance company. You honestly think, some insurance company is happily going to pay out 4M to Kucherov for faking the injury? You think any GM in the league or any member of the BOG will complain that they are able to use LTIR, because the fact is 18/31 Teams are using LTIR.

    Kucherov needed the surgery. Got the surgery. He isn't 100% and doesn't need to rush back because Tampa is still in the playoffs. If lets say he is 75% right now, and by game 1 he's 85%, He and the team is better off to wait until he's 85%.
     
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  19. DistantThunderRep Registered User

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    This injury has a recovery time of 5-6 months. Where the hell did you pull 8-10 weeks out of?

    Maybe just for the surgery itself. To get back into game shape it takes another few months of rehab. Point had the same surgery, came back early and looked like shit.

    Pastrnak underwent a right hip arthroscopy and labral repair on Sept. 16. His expected recovery time was five months, which would be in the middle of February. He came back like a week or two early. Still 5 months.

    Seguin is still out and he had surgery for the same issue in November. He's at 6 months now.
     
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  20. belair Registered User

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    Like I said, I didn't suggest the scenario where the team forced a player to play. If I did, I'd be invested enough to read that portion of the CBA, but I didn't. If a player didn't feel healthy enough to play, they wouldn't.
     
  21. Ted Hoffman Yes, I really am better than you.

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    :facepalm:

    No, what you said is "if a team forced a player to play knowing he was hurt, the player could pursue legal action against the team." Which, I've now quoted twice.

    The CBA, which you apparently can't be bothered to read because you're not "invested enough," pretty clearly outlines that a player who is injured cannot be compelled to play anyway and a team cannot take punitive actions against the player when he says he's unable to play due to injury or illness. Not to mention, a player who believes he's injured but who the team's doctor's say he's not always has the right to seek a second opinion elsewhere and, in the event the second opinion doesn't match the first, and if that opinion differs from the team will get a third opinion by someone selected by both the team and the player (player's agent) that will decide which of the two differing opinions is valid. Thus, there is zero incentive for a team to lie about a player's actual physical condition knowing it could be overruled by examinations done by other parties.

    Read more. Guess less.
     
  22. belair Registered User

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    And it was a response to a post that suggested Edmonton forced Oscar Klefbom to play when he might've been convinced that he wasn't healthy enough. I don't care what the CBA says because it was a ridiculous suggestion in the first place. And what you've provided here shows how ridiculous it was.

    You should be showing this to the person who initially suggested it.
     
  23. AndreRoy Registered User

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    You talk about logic: re-read your points 1 and 2 and tell me if it is logical that such a player (and especially one of the very best in the NHL) would willingly and unnecessarily give up his season just so his team can save the picks and/or prospects it would take to become cap compliant.
     
  24. Ted Hoffman Yes, I really am better than you.

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    Stop. Take the L already. Admit you posted something wrong, move on. If you want it sent to someone else, you figure out the copy/paste function in Windows and do it yourself.
     
  25. belair Registered User

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    It's not my fault you don't understand how threads work, bud. My response was a post to someone who suggested a ridiculous theory. You decided to quote my response instead of the initial post. Nobody asked for your info or your response.

    It clearly didn't add anything.

    What you pulled out of the CBA is essentially the same logic as an employee refusing unsafe work. You don't need the CBA to know that an employer can't force their employee to do anything that could put their health at risk.

    Enjoy the W, weird CBA guy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021

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