Tallon’s time is up?

[jvr32]

I think it would be fair to say that all discussions about how this team has been run for the past 8 years come back to ownership. We can talk all we want about what tallon has or has not done well, but all discussions will be colored by what happened with gallant, rowe, and expansion. We all know that ownership was involved, we just don't know how much. So it's really hard to judge tallon fairly when you take those things into account.

If ownership continues to meddle and limit budget, it won't matter who is the gm. Until you put the hockey people 100% in charge with a clearly competitive budget, this team won't be able to have consistent and sustainable success. I really hope ownership has learned their lesson or the future of this franchise is questionable.

This franchise is going to hell anyway with Tallon.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

I think it would be fair to say that all discussions about how this team has been run for the past 8 years come back to ownership. We can talk all we want about what tallon has or has not done well, but all discussions will be colored by what happened with gallant, rowe, and expansion. We all know that ownership was involved, we just don't know how much. So it's really hard to judge tallon fairly when you take those things into account.

If ownership continues to meddle and limit budget, it won't matter who is the gm. Until you put the hockey people 100% in charge with a clearly competitive budget, this team won't be able to have consistent and sustainable success. I really hope ownership has learned their lesson or the future of this franchise is questionable.

Are they limiting budget though?
Again, we're 12th in cap hit and 19th in actual salary paid. Not saying it's perfect but there are competitive teams with similar or lesser cap hits and salaries.
Next offseason will be telling as we'll have the cap space to add up to two big pieces.

 

[pantherbot]

Are they limiting budget though?
Again, we're 12th in cap hit and 19th in actual salary paid. Not saying it's perfect but there are competitive teams with similar or lesser cap hits and salaries.
Next offseason will be telling as we'll have the cap space to add up to two big pieces.

I wouldn't say they have a small budget, as there's are obviously some big contacts on the books and like you said, we're in the middle for salary. But almost all the moves and contacts we sign are often driven by value. I get it, we're in a salary cap era, but so little is done to really be a competitor. Some of the moves have been great, but they are all driven to maximize value.

All the long term core contracts signed because of value. Why throw 7.5m at ekblad? Because they were worried he'd be good and they would have to pay more. Same with math, bjud, tro, barkov. Barkov and tro contacts are awesome, but the others are up for debate. All were done with value as a big factor.

We never hear of the team employing any big name trainers or background staff. Our minor league situation has been in constant flux. I remember seeing a chart recently on league wide scouting spending that had us near the bottom. I don't doubt that boogie being cheaper had some influence on the decision to hire him. We hear more about sponsorships, broward county handouts, real estate development, and buddha beer than on any investments in scouting or training.

Noting this ownership has done is to strictly help on ice performance. Value and cost is always part of the thinking

 

[DrMom9900]

Tallon needs to go. He's been a grade A failure of a GM. Talks big with small results.

 

[Acadmus]

I have been a huge Tallon advocate for a long time, but this is unacceptable. He will never make a big trade to get this team to where it needs to be. Yes he got us Hoffman but that was just smooth like most of his minor acquisitions. We need someone who isn’t scared to make that big trade to get us what we need.

What big trade are you proposing? I don't think there's a GM in the league that would trade a high end goalie for prospects and spare parts, and including any decent established assets in the deal would end up being a trade off that wouldn't move the team forward and could set them back. For years we've been saying what the team needed is another top 6 forward...we got that this summer, but now we need a new starting goalie. We've actually needed that for a couple years, but what's really available? Best Tallon could do is sell the farm to get one from a team that's rebuilding, but are the goalies of bottom-feeding teams worth it? Isn't that what he acquired in Hutchinson anyway?

Years of failed ownership and leadership in this team is hamstringing Tallon as he has limited assets to work with. We've got a lot of promising prospects, but they aren't worth much in a trade until they pan out.

Realistically, what trade would you propose to get a really starting-caliber goalie without hurting some other aspect of the team? I'd like to know.

 

[Clint]

I'm starting to lean in tepidly with the 'fire Tallon' camp. Between the botched Vegas expansion draft - which set the progress of our franchise back several years, and Ekblad's long contract which is going to be an albatross for a long time if he can't play like a first overall selection - he hasn't really done a great job of managing our assets. Which is what the GM's main job is supposed to be.

That's not even mentioning the relative instability of the front office with the data/metrics wars or the number of head coaches we've had under his tenure - four, is it? Five? And I strongly suspect that if the Panthers don't make the playoffs this year Bougner will be on the hot seat in the offseason.

He gets positive marks for some of his trades: the recent Hoffman trade and the Campbell trade and picking up Jagr and Yandle were all great moves, as was re-acquiring Luongo. But he's doing only okay through the draft. Huberdeau and Barkov were easy early selections and he gets big ups for finding Trocheck later on in the draft, but beyond that I just don't see really consistent drafting or development. For every Borgstrom there's a Crouse, and I'm worried guys like Tippett and Denisenko might be near misses.

We also don't have depth at goalie as we're clearly seeing right now, which is directly contributing to losses that will affect our playoff run. Further, I'm not sold on Samuel Montembeault yet and it would be nice if we had an insurance policy in net if he doesn't pan out.

So, yeah. After 8 years with him at the helm we've seen the product on the ice. These are his teams. I fear another GM coming in and blowing everything up and starting over but at what point do we continue to accept mediocrity from the front office?

 

[FinlandPanther]

What big trade are you proposing? I don't think there's a GM in the league that would trade a high end goalie for prospects and spare parts, and including any decent established assets in the deal would end up being a trade off that wouldn't move the team forward and could set them back. For years we've been saying what the team needed is another top 6 forward...we got that this summer, but now we need a new starting goalie. We've actually needed that for a couple years, but what's really available? Best Tallon could do is sell the farm to get one from a team that's rebuilding, but are the goalies of bottom-feeding teams worth it? Isn't that what he acquired in Hutchinson anyway?

Years of failed ownership and leadership in this team is hamstringing Tallon as he has limited assets to work with. We've got a lot of promising prospects, but they aren't worth much in a trade until they pan out.

Realistically, what trade would you propose to get a really starting-caliber goalie without hurting some other aspect of the team? I'd like to know.

We have an abundance of prospects and pretty much everyone on our roster should be up for grabs but Barkov. We need defense. Our forwards would survive even if we lost someone. I’m not saying it’s easy to make this big trade but Tallon will never trade his beloved prospects for anyone.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

I'm starting to lean in tepidly with the 'fire Tallon' camp. Between the botched Vegas expansion draft - which set the progress of our franchise back several years, and Ekblad's long contract which is going to be an albatross for a long time if he can't play like a first overall selection - he hasn't really done a great job of managing our assets. Which is what the GM's main job is supposed to be.

That's not even mentioning the relative instability of the front office with the data/metrics wars or the number of head coaches we've had under his tenure - four, is it? Five? And I strongly suspect that if the Panthers don't make the playoffs this year Bougner will be on the hot seat in the offseason.

He gets positive marks for some of his trades: the recent Hoffman trade and the Campbell trade and picking up Jagr and Yandle were all great moves, as was re-acquiring Luongo. But he's doing only okay through the draft. Huberdeau and Barkov were easy early selections and he gets big ups for finding Trocheck later on in the draft, but beyond that I just don't see really consistent drafting or development. For every Borgstrom there's a Crouse, and I'm worried guys like Tippett and Denisenko might be near misses.

We also don't have depth at goalie as we're clearly seeing right now, which is directly contributing to losses that will affect our playoff run. Further, I'm not sold on Samuel Montembeault yet and it would be nice if we had an insurance policy in net if he doesn't pan out.

So, yeah. After 8 years with him at the helm we've seen the product on the ice. These are his teams. I fear another GM coming in and blowing everything up and starting over but at what point do we continue to accept mediocrity from the front office?

The Ekblad extension is supposedly not on Tallon (it was done during Rowe time); he also doesn't get the credit (or blame) for the Yandle signing.

Re: draft/developement, can you have good draft if your developement sucks? Because changes like this take time. OTOH, should Tallon get any credit or blame for the farm now when it's been so heavily revamped during Rowe time?

I think he has to go if we don't make it this year. At the same time, we are better off than we were before he came here... just maybe not better enough. Some of it is on the ownership... tough to say how much. But if we don't make it, I think you have to move on from Tallon and try to change things. At least if he goes, his successor will inherit the team in a better shape than Tallon did when he arrived.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

I'll say the same thing I've said 7 times. I thought Tallon was decent and should not have been fired. He definitely shouldn't have been brought back (the expansion draft was a debacle), but this off-season was good and their record is what it is simply due to bad goaltending which he can't control. Every player her brought in this summer has been good (except for Hutch who had 1 real stinker). People are saying it's a results based league and that's fair but if you think Scotty Bowman somehow helps James Reimer make saves, you're wrong. Goaltending is literally the only reason their record is bad. The defense has been mediocre as expected but still good enough for a respectable record.

 

[PanthersHockey1]

I'm starting to lean in tepidly with the 'fire Tallon' camp. Between the botched Vegas expansion draft - which set the progress of our franchise back several years, and Ekblad's long contract which is going to be an albatross for a long time if he can't play like a first overall selection - he hasn't really done a great job of managing our assets. Which is what the GM's main job is supposed to be.

That's not even mentioning the relative instability of the front office with the data/metrics wars or the number of head coaches we've had under his tenure - four, is it? Five? And I strongly suspect that if the Panthers don't make the playoffs this year Bougner will be on the hot seat in the offseason.

He gets positive marks for some of his trades: the recent Hoffman trade and the Campbell trade and picking up Jagr and Yandle were all great moves, as was re-acquiring Luongo. But he's doing only okay through the draft. Huberdeau and Barkov were easy early selections and he gets big ups for finding Trocheck later on in the draft, but beyond that I just don't see really consistent drafting or development. For every Borgstrom there's a Crouse, and I'm worried guys like Tippett and Denisenko might be near misses.

We also don't have depth at goalie as we're clearly seeing right now, which is directly contributing to losses that will affect our playoff run. Further, I'm not sold on Samuel Montembeault yet and it would be nice if we had an insurance policy in net if he doesn't pan out.

So, yeah. After 8 years with him at the helm we've seen the product on the ice. These are his teams. I fear another GM coming in and blowing everything up and starting over but at what point do we continue to accept mediocrity from the front office?

Good post.

 

[DrMom9900]

I'll say the same thing I've said 7 times. I thought Tallon was decent and should not have been fired. He definitely shouldn't have been brought back (the expansion draft was a debacle), but this off-season was good and their record is what it is simply due to bad goaltending which he can't control. Every player her brought in this summer has been good (except for Hutch who had 1 real stinker). People are saying it's a results based league and that's fair but if you think Scotty Bowman somehow helps James Reimer make saves, you're wrong. Goaltending is literally the only reason their record is bad. The defense has been mediocre as expected but still good enough for a respectable record.

Bad teams lose, good teams win. Bad teams have bad goaltending (mostly), good teams have good goaltending. It's all too easy to put all the teams issues on goaltending this season and say "If only we had a better goalie, we'd have more wins". That's quite a stretch.

We're still a bad team, even if our goalies are performing to expectations. Our D looks like a dog-shit, our O is struggling to click consistently, our special teams are laughable. What about that says "Goalie is our only issue?". Tired of waiting for Tallon's masterplan to unfurl in its magnificent splendor. We have severe personnel problems. And while our team looks good on paper, and believe me, it does, that is hardly what you are getting on the ice. Its a perplexing issue that has transcended specific team make-up. Its been an issue for as long as I can remember. No matter how good the player we have is on PAPER, they never perform to an effect that can make this a successful franchise (sans Bure ofc, the goat). At this point I think its a culture thing. S fla is a shitty place for a hockey team. We can never maximize any players potential because they know this fact as well. Tampa for some reason is exempt from this shit culture, but I'm not gonna busy myself with figuring out what they put in the water that we dont. They simply care more.

 

[Jakeybonz]

Bad teams lose, good teams win. Bad teams have bad goaltending (mostly), good teams have good goaltending. It's all too easy to put all the teams issues on goaltending this season and say "If only we had a better goalie, we'd have more wins". That's quite a stretch.

We're still a bad team, even if our goalies are performing to expectations. Our D looks like a dog-****, our O is struggling to click consistently, our special teams are laughable. What about that says "Goalie is our only issue?". Tired of waiting for Tallon's masterplan to unfurl in its magnificent splendor. We have severe personnel problems. And while our team looks good on paper, and believe me, it does, that is hardly what you are getting on the ice. Its a perplexing issue that has transcended specific team make-up. Its been an issue for as long as I can remember. No matter how good the player we have is on PAPER, they never perform to an effect that can make this a successful franchise (sans Bure ofc, the goat). At this point I think its a culture thing. S fla is a ****ty place for a hockey team. We can never maximize any players potential because they know this fact as well. Tampa for some reason is exempt from this **** culture, but I'm not gonna busy myself with figuring out what they put in the water that we dont. They simply care more.

tampas owner spends the cap every year. its hard to put a crap team on the ice while spending the cap. im not saying dale couldnt do it, im just saying its hard. also tampas scouts are the best in the world and its not close. that coupled with the leagues best gm has made them the greatest hockey team there is on paper.

 

[DrMom9900]

I just get tired of every team in the league going through 2 or more rebuilds and surpassing us in relevance, before we can even string together consecutive appearances in the playoffs. What are teams doing right, several times, mind you, this is two decades I'm talking about here, that panthers ownership can never accomplish? Didn't the Coyotes even make b2b playoff appearances? Jesus...

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Bad teams lose, good teams win. Bad teams have bad goaltending (mostly), good teams have good goaltending. It's all too easy to put all the teams issues on goaltending this season and say "If only we had a better goalie, we'd have more wins". That's quite a stretch.

We're still a bad team, even if our goalies are performing to expectations. Our D looks like a dog-****, our O is struggling to click consistently, our special teams are laughable. What about that says "Goalie is our only issue?". Tired of waiting for Tallon's masterplan to unfurl in its magnificent splendor.

Defense is an issue, offense could use minor improvement. However, for (what was my goal of a WC seed), it's definitely only goaltending holding them back. I don't see how it's a stretch at all. If your goalie is 40 points off his career sv%, you are going to be worse than you thought. I'm not even suggesting Florida needs a better goalie (though I agree), I honestly don't understand how anyone is arguing that a goalie with a career .917 sv% is putting up a .880sv% and letting in multiple routine shots per game isn't costing Florida multiple points.

Special teams fall under the goaltending too. Florida's PK has been fine, goalie hasn't made a save.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

The game against the Rangers, based on their shooting areas and scoring chances, they should have scored 1 goal. They scored 5. What do you do when your goalie is Swiss cheese? I think the Rangers game is a perfect example. panthers defense was fine, offense controlled play. If your goalie is letting in unscreened shots from the blueline, you're pretty much f***ed. Same applies to the Blue Jackets game. That's 4 points lost right there.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

tampas owner spends the cap every year. its hard to put a crap team on the ice while spending the cap. im not saying dale couldnt do it, im just saying its hard. also tampas scouts are the best in the world and its not close. that coupled with the leagues best gm has made them the greatest hockey team there is on paper.

Well it easy to have a crap...well a non playoff team when spending to the cap. Leafs did for years, and Rangers and Wings are in that position now. I don't get all this love for Yzerman. His team missed the playoffs in three of seven years he was there. Yes, he made two Cup finals. But the team does have cap issues in the future especially with it's NTC players.

 

[CHGoalie27]

The game against the Rangers, based on their shooting areas and scoring chances, they should have scored 1 goal. They scored 5. What do you do when your goalie is Swiss cheese? I think the Rangers game is a perfect example. panthers defense was fine, offense controlled play. If your goalie is letting in unscreened shots from the blueline, you're pretty much ****ed. Same applies to the Blue Jackets game. That's 4 points lost right there.

Nope. Still arguing the one goal goalie accountability. The wrap around. The next 3 PP goals normally aren't had by any goalie. Watch the Rangers enough, and you'll see they score that same goal pretty much every game too (obv. not on the same goalie tho!).

 

[CHGoalie27]

Well it easy to have a crap...well a non playoff team when spending to the cap. Leafs did for years, and Rangers and Wings are in that position now. I don't get all this love for Yzerman. His team missed the playoffs in three of seven years he was there. Yes, he made two Cup finals. But the team does have cap issues in the future especially with it's NTC players.

Answered yourself lol.

I'll take those "cap issues" all day.

 

[Drugs Delaney]

I just get tired of every team in the league going through 2 or more rebuilds and surpassing us in relevance, before we can even string together consecutive appearances in the playoffs. What are teams doing right, several times, mind you, this is two decades I'm talking about here, that panthers ownership can never accomplish? Didn't the Coyotes even make b2b playoff appearances? Jesus...

This post right here is where I’m at. You could pretty much start a new expansion team, set the front office and drafting on auto pilot and probably win more in 25 years than this team has. You truly have to try hard to lose and much as this franchise has. It’s almost unbelievable.

 

[vendetta]

The game against the Rangers, based on their shooting areas and scoring chances, they should have scored 1 goal. They scored 5. What do you do when your goalie is Swiss cheese? I think the Rangers game is a perfect example. panthers defense was fine, offense controlled play. If your goalie is letting in unscreened shots from the blueline, you're pretty much ****ed. Same applies to the Blue Jackets game. That's 4 points lost right there.

Yes agree 100 percent. That won’t fit the narrative around here that our d is trash, even tho they’ve allowed minimal chances recently, and our forwards are trash. Goaltending is literally the only reason we aren’t at least 4 points higher in the standings and possibly more. It’s cut and dry and people refuse to accept it. It’s usually never this black and white but the goaltending at the start of year and especially rangers game was worst I’ve ever seen

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Yes agree 100 percent. That won’t fit the narrative around here that our d is trash, even tho they’ve allowed minimal chances recently, and our forwards are trash. Goaltending is literally the only reason we aren’t at least 4 points higher in the standings and possibly more. It’s cut and dry and people refuse to accept it. It’s usually never this black and white but the goaltending at the start of year and especially rangers game was worst I’ve ever seen

I know, I have been agreeing with you and RainingRats all year, I don't know what's going on

 

[Ratsreign]

I'm starting to lean in tepidly with the 'fire Tallon' camp. Between the botched Vegas expansion draft - which set the progress of our franchise back several years, and Ekblad's long contract which is going to be an albatross for a long time if he can't play like a first overall selection - he hasn't really done a great job of managing our assets. Which is what the GM's main job is supposed to be.

That's not even mentioning the relative instability of the front office with the data/metrics wars or the number of head coaches we've had under his tenure - four, is it? Five? And I strongly suspect that if the Panthers don't make the playoffs this year Bougner will be on the hot seat in the offseason.

He gets positive marks for some of his trades: the recent Hoffman trade and the Campbell trade and picking up Jagr and Yandle were all great moves, as was re-acquiring Luongo. But he's doing only okay through the draft. Huberdeau and Barkov were easy early selections and he gets big ups for finding Trocheck later on in the draft, but beyond that I just don't see really consistent drafting or development. For every Borgstrom there's a Crouse, and I'm worried guys like Tippett and Denisenko might be near misses.

We also don't have depth at goalie as we're clearly seeing right now, which is directly contributing to losses that will affect our playoff run. Further, I'm not sold on Samuel Montembeault yet and it would be nice if we had an insurance policy in net if he doesn't pan out.

So, yeah. After 8 years with him at the helm we've seen the product on the ice. These are his teams. I fear another GM coming in and blowing everything up and starting over but at what point do we continue to accept mediocrity from the front office?

It's harder to judge him after the Elmer Fudd Fiasco. Tallon hit a home run going against everyone who knew better than him when he hired Gallant. Tallon didn't fire Gallant. Tallon is far from perfect, but he finally had shit going in the right direction when they pulled the rug out from under him. The expansion draft will always be a sore spot, but is it unreasonable to think that it may be possible that DT was told to get rid of Reilly (didn't step up when needed due to injuries to top players, bad soldier, didn't take being made the scapegoat well, obviously not a TEAM guy, is so overpaid) Smith by Mr West Point? Here's your rug back, Dale, sorry for the shit stains, we're sure you can get them out....

 

[Asheville]

If playoffs are missed, Tallon and Boughner are gone. If bounced in Round 1, we'll see low-level firings (asst. coaches, scouts, etc.). Win a round or more? All is well in the world and no heads roll.

The one constant in all 3 scenarios: neither Reimer nor Luongo (nor Hutchinson) will be part of the next goaltending tandem. Lu MIGHT, but would be the back-up and may not accept that.

 

[Acadmus]

We have an abundance of prospects and pretty much everyone on our roster should be up for grabs but Barkov. We need defense. Our forwards would survive even if we lost someone. I’m not saying it’s easy to make this big trade but Tallon will never trade his beloved prospects for anyone.

I'm really not convinced any of our current prospects, no matter how highly touted, would fetch what we need. There'd have to be one of our top-6 forwards...and then we'll get back to being able to keep goals out of the net (hopefully) but needing that ONE top-6 forward that can pitch in the offense we need to score one more goal in a couple dozen games. It's a catch-22, and I'm sorry, really don't think at this point there's much that can be done. You're assuming Tallon isn't trying to work a deal, and I can just about guarantee you he is, as he's got to know at this point his job is on the line. But if we do anything with that top-6 of our forwards, or even our top-2 defensemen, we'll be taking a step back and missing the playoffs as a near-miss yet again. Tallon's got to find a way to add without subtracting - yes, give up Borgstrom or Tippett if needed...but I doubt he'll be able to land a real NHL #1 goalie with prospects and/or picks until another team gets to the point that they want to rebuild. And it's got to be a team that's deep in goaltending prospects that's willing to give up a current starter or high-end backup (that is, a team with a proverbial 1a/1b goaltending tandem).

 

[Acadmus]

I just get tired of every team in the league going through 2 or more rebuilds and surpassing us in relevance, before we can even string together consecutive appearances in the playoffs. What are teams doing right, several times, mind you, this is two decades I'm talking about here, that panthers ownership can never accomplish? Didn't the Coyotes even make b2b playoff appearances? Jesus...

What this team did wrong was what it did after our last playoff appearance. When you're on the verge like that, to suddenly push your GM out of his position and then replace 1/3rd of the team is a huge gamble and it usually doesn't pay off...and it didn't in the Panthers' case. Add to that they also put all the blame on the coach early on and left him on the curb after a road game in a classless move, and you've got all the answers you need as to what ownership is doing wrong. Despite all the knocks on him, Tallon had a good plan and helped this team take a big step forward from where it was a decade ago, and there was no reason at that point to not stay the course. Putting Rowe in there and letting him monkey with the team the way he did was a huge mistake and big setback. Other teams don't make big changes when they're showing an upward trend, they stay the course until it's clear the course isn't taking them to their destination. Time after time the Panthers have failed to do that and changed at the drop of a hat. First Huizenga wanted to sell the team and was dropping payroll to make it attractive...then he got a marquis player to make it more attractive for a year, then dropped payroll again thinking it was too expensive. Cohen bought the team (well, a group he headed did) then hired one guy (Dudley) to run the team, then hired his own coach (Keenan, a disruption unto himself) and had both answer to HIM, meddling with operations and making a mess of things. The next pair that bought the team made a mess of their own situation and finances and couldn't afford the team and that hamstrung it, then the current owner started out right but decided a couple seasons ago to act like Cohen, and got bit for it. Fortunately for us fans he admitted his error and reversed it as best he could, but damage was done and it's not a snap of the fingers to undo it.

So that's your answer as to what the Panthers are doing wrong.