Tallon’s time is up?

[TheImpatientPanther]

The sad part is that the problem starts with the owners, who aren’t hockey people and don’t really care about the game. They care about profits first. I’m not saying a team shouldn’t be profitable - of course it must be to sustain success. It’s an order of priority thing. It’s like corporate fixers who swoop in, “fix stuff” (by closing plants etc), and then position the company for an acquisition. It would be way better to say, let’s understand what it’ll take to make a high quality product that people who enjoy our product space will really like. Do that and you won’t need corporate fixers and you won’t need to worry about profit.

It would be great if owners could be fired, but that’s where the oxymoron makes its bed. Owners can’t be fired, but they don’t care enough to understand why DT and Boog were a mistake. So I’m not optimistic about the future of this franchise.

Just curious what you mean by owners arent hockey people? As in they're not fans or haven't played the game professionally before?

Thought Viola and Cifu grew up in NY and loved either the Rangers or Islanders.

And to be honest, most of the league is trending towards more offense, the owners werent wrong in that they wanted a more uptempo offensive product, just our defense is very green and our goaltending is very old and mediocre.

Feel like people would complain even if GG was still here playing a defensive structure but we still lose 3-2 or 2-1 because we cant score. Now its we can score but csnt defend. I'm giving Tallon one last year to patch that up and if he cant, give him his walking papers.

 

[KW]

Just curious what you mean by owners arent hockey people? As in they're not fans or haven't played the game professionally before?

Thought Viola and Cifu grew up in NY and loved either the Rangers or Islanders.

And to be honest, most of the league is trending towards more offense, the owners werent wrong in that they wanted a more uptempo offensive product, just our defense is very green and our goaltending is very old and mediocre.

Feel like people would complain even if GG was still here playing a defensive structure but we still lose 3-2 or 2-1 because we cant score. Now its we can score but csnt defend. I'm giving Tallon one last year to patch that up and if he cant, give him his walking papers.

Not hockey people as in not played, not coached, not been involved in hands-on capacity, only as fans. And after they bought the team they did get involved but being owners, they couldn’t lower themselves to learning the game, they had to tell others how it’s done. That’s my impression.

Regarding the complaining, I’m complaining simply in a “I’ve given up” sense. I don’t expect changes and fixes. I really don’t. I’ve been a STH for something like 12-14 years. I don’t even remember exactly how long because it’s all a blur of losing. Lose. Draft poorly. Cheap out on FA. Cheap out on coach. Lose. Rinse and repeat.

My final complaining has to do with “one more year”. We’re always giving people “one more year” - unless it’s someone good we got lucky with like Gallant, and then we suddenly have the chops to fire them. This season it’s “give Boog and Tallon one more year” and by the way “trade Hoff while he’s good”. I don’t understand why we need to put up with mediocrity for one more year, and trade away good players (to get good or maybe better players but those are far from guaranteed)? Why not use simple formulas for success?

If I were king for a day, my first action at 8:36am today would be an Uber for Boog to MIA where his flight to Timbuktu is waiting. My second action would be to pull Tallon into a dark room and tell him in no uncertain terms that he has exactly until the third day of free agency to have the team some missing pieces. Fail and you’re out. Succeed and then you’ve got another 2 weeks to land a new head coach and assistant coaches.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Not hockey people as in not played, not coached, not been involved in hands-on capacity, only as fans. And after they bought the team they did get involved but being owners, they couldn’t lower themselves to learning the game, they had to tell others how it’s done. That’s my impression.

Regarding the complaining, I’m complaining simply in a “I’ve given up” sense. I don’t expect changes and fixes. I really don’t. I’ve been a STH for something like 12-14 years. I don’t even remember exactly how long because it’s all a blur of losing. Lose. Draft poorly. Cheap out on FA. Cheap out on coach. Lose. Rinse and repeat.

My final complaining has to do with “one more year”. We’re always giving people “one more year” - unless it’s someone good we got lucky with like Gallant, and then we suddenly have the chops to fire them. This season it’s “give Boog and Tallon one more year” and by the way “trade Hoff while he’s good”. I don’t understand why we need to put up with mediocrity for one more year, and trade away good players (to get good or maybe better players but those are far from guaranteed)? Why not use simple formulas for success?

If I were king for a day, my first action at 8:36am today would be an Uber for Boog to MIA where his flight to Timbuktu is waiting. My second action would be to pull Tallon into a dark room and tell him in no uncertain terms that he has exactly until the third day of free agency to have the team some missing pieces. Fail and you’re out. Succeed and then you’ve got another 2 weeks to land a new head coach and assistant coaches.

Hear ya loud and clear KW. My memories of the 96 cup run adjusting the rabbit ears on the 4-5 channel tube TV up at my parents cottage as a 11yr old are fading fast.

Feel ownership learned their lesson now and obviously have given Tallon the green light to spend to cap and with the monstrous deals given to Yandle, Ekblad and Matheson, I have a bit more belief they are true to their word. At least it's not what Melnyk is saying right? You probably dont want to hear this from someone who hasnt been a STH as I don't live there but if you've/we've waited this long, what's one more year?

Tallon has had a decade but that is how long it's taken to get some form of depth throughout both FLA and SPR. The improvements have been there in flashes with little playoff experience but I wouldn't lose any sleep if Boog and/or Capuano are axed, just feel unless its Q/Boudreau hire, theres no sense bringing in another rookie coach. We can all see what the team is lacking, just wait 3-4 months more and then we can start sharpening our pitchforks if we dont like what we see.

I truly believe ownership is committed to winning, Viola being a military guy doesnt seem like the guy to accept losing year after year.

I'd chase more grit if we're adding, Ferland type for middle 6, Trouba/Manson on D and Bob in net. Re-sign Hoffman and use Dadonov as our own rental. Trade Denisenko before Tippett/Heponiemi.

Sounds like a broken record but honestly dont feel were that far off. Teams like COL, EDM, WPG, TOR, CAR, CGY have been building for a decade too and just now starting to see some success in making the playoffs but still need to add to get past 1st/2nd round.

 

[KW]

Hear ya loud and clear KW. My memories of the 96 cup run adjusting the rabbit ears on the 4-5 channel tube TV up at my parents cottage as a 11yr old are fading fast.

Feel ownership learned their lesson now and obviously have given Tallon the green light to spend to cap and with the monstrous deals given to Yandle, Ekblad and Matheson, I have a bit more belief they are true to their word. At least it's not what Melnyk is saying right? You probably dont want to hear this from someone who hasnt been a STH as I don't live there but if you've/we've waited this long, what's one more year?

Tallon has had a decade but that is how long it's taken to get some form of depth throughout both FLA and SPR. The improvements have been there in flashes with little playoff experience but I wouldn't lose any sleep if Boog and/or Capuano are axed, just feel unless its Q/Boudreau hire, theres no sense bringing in another rookie coach. We can all see what the team is lacking, just wait 3-4 months more and then we can start sharpening our pitchforks if we dont like what we see.

I truly believe ownership is committed to winning, Viola being a military guy doesnt seem like the guy to accept losing year after year.

I'd chase more grit if we're adding, Ferland type for middle 6, Trouba/Manson on D and Bob in net. Re-sign Hoffman and use Dadonov as our own rental. Trade Denisenko before Tippett/Heponiemi.

Sounds like a broken record but honestly dont feel were that far off. Teams like COL, EDM, WPG, TOR, CAR, CGY have been building for a decade too and just now starting to see some success in making the playoffs but still need to add to get past 1st/2nd round.

Decent point about the Yan/Ek/Mat contracts, to show that owners might be spending to get better.

I do think the team needs shock therapy though. Fire Boog/Jackass. Trade someone like Tro or prospects including Borg.

Short leash for Tallon.

 

[vendetta]

The same people that whined and cried about tallon searing character size and grit are now crying that we r too soft and want tallon gone cause this is his blueprint? Lmao. You can’t make this up. This is hysterical to me. This is
Clearly not talking blueprint. He is retooling in the fly cause his blueprint was dismantled

 

[Crossbar]

The same people that whined and cried about tallon searing character size and grit are now crying that we r too soft and want tallon gone cause this is his blueprint? Lmao. You can’t make this up. This is hysterical to me. This is
Clearly not talking blueprint. He is retooling in the fly cause his blueprint was dismantled

Who said they wanted this team to be soft? Weren't you all aboard on getting rid of Haley? Definitely not me. When Boog was hired, Tallon promised more toughness, so all he did was replace Thornton with Haley, kept Petro and called up Weeg (added Vatrano at deadline). Then this season gets rid of Haley and Petro, and calls up Hawk/Brown. That's all Dale Tallon's doing not anybody else.

 

[vendetta]

Who said they wanted this team to be soft? Weren't you all aboard on getting rid of Haley? Definitely not me. When Boog was hired, Tallon promised more toughness, so all he did was replace Thornton with Haley, kept Petro and called up Weeg (added Vatrano at deadline). Then this season gets rid of Haley and Petro, and calls up Hawk/Brown. That's all Dale Tallon's doing not anybody else.

Hawk and
Brown are functional. Haley isn’t. Petro isn’t. When u jettison guys like guds kuli crouse and numerous other forwards and get rid of the coach it takes a while to find a balance again. None of this is on tallon.good news is we have a shit ton of cap space and assets to make a few minor tweaks to balance the team
Better. Tallon set that up. He deserves a chance to finish his messy cleanup after he already delivered once

 

[RainingRats]

The same people that whined and cried about tallon searing character size and grit are now crying that we r too soft and want tallon gone cause this is his blueprint? Lmao. You can’t make this up. This is hysterical to me. This is
Clearly not talking blueprint. He is retooling in the fly cause his blueprint was dismantled

His blueprint wasn’t dismantled and he’s had plenty of time to add functional toughness.

His attempts with Haley and his keeping of Petro show he’s failed at assessing and acquiring the type of functional toughness we need.

 

[Crossbar]

Hawk and
Brown are functional. Haley isn’t. Petro isn’t. When u jettison guys like guds kuli crouse and numerous other forwards and get rid of the coach it takes a while to find a balance again. None of this is on tallon.good news is we have a **** ton of cap space and assets to make a few minor tweaks to balance the team
Better. Tallon set that up. He deserves a chance to finish his messy cleanup after he already delivered once

Petro isn't functional, but Guds and Kuli are? Guds was one of the worst d-men for Vancouver his entire tenure there and Kuli had been out of the Jets lineup as a 7th d-man up until Big Buff's injury. Remind me who was the guy that decided to protect Petro in expansion?

 

[vendetta]

His blueprint wasn’t dismantled and he’s had plenty of time to add functional toughness.

His attempts with Haley and his keeping of Petro show he’s failed at assessing and acquiring the type of functional toughness we need.

I’m not going thru the dismantling argument anymore. The team was clearly dismantled after playoff appearance and it’s not arguable. Absolutely decimated that team coach and all. Does this even resemble a tallon team? Not to me it doesn’t. He’s trying to find balance. He has maneuvered his way Into having the assets and cap space to do so. He deserves the chance to do it

 

[vendetta]

Petro isn't functional, but Guds and Kuli are? Guds was one of the worst d-men for Vancouver his entire tenure there and Kuli had been out of the Jets lineup up until Big Buff's injury. Remind me who was the guy that decided to protect Petro in expansion?

Did guds and kuli play twenty mins a night on our playoff team and best team
In franchise history? I would call that functional. Pens find him functional. Just cause a rebuilding van team wasn’t good enough for that type of player. He is clearly a role player. U don’t build around him. He’s not the type
To be good on a bad team but very useful on a good team. Either way they were so aweful even tho they played big mi utes for us that we went to playoffs with them. Something g doesn’t add up.

 

[RainingRats]

I’m not going thru the dismantling argument anymore. The team was clearly dismantled after playoff appearance and it’s not arguable. Absolutely decimated that team coach and all. Does this even resemble a tallon team? Not to me it doesn’t. He’s trying to find balance. He has maneuvered his way Into having the assets and cap space to do so. He deserves the chance to do it

You’re 100% wrong. Entire core is here. We trimmed the fat and only real loss didn’t want to stay and then retired.

He kept soft Bjugstad around too long.

He’s had plenty of time to get tougher and extended soft d-men like Pysyk.

Tallon is to blame. 100%

 

[RainingRats]

Did guds and kuli play twenty mins a night on our playoff team and best team
In franchise history? I would call that functional. Pens find him functional. Just cause a rebuilding van team wasn’t good enough for that type of player. He is clearly a role player. U don’t build around him. He’s not the type
To be good on a bad team but very useful on a good team. Either way they were so aweful even tho they played big mi utes for us that we went to playoffs with them. Something g doesn’t add up.

He was not worth the cost to extend him. Tallon used the money for your boy Matheson. Another overpaid, bottom pairing guy

 

[PSLguy]

His blueprint wasn’t dismantled and he’s had plenty of time to add functional toughness.

His attempts with Haley and his keeping of Petro show he’s failed at assessing and acquiring the type of functional toughness we need.

His blueprint wasn't dismantled? Tallon was building the team from goal out. He had Lou playing well and big, heavy dmen.

The team set a team record in points.

Then after the Penguins won the cup all the changes made were to change from a strong defensive team to a fast uptempo offensive team.

Before you say it, yes Mitchell was retiring and Campbell wanted to go home to Chicago. Demers was Mitchell's replacement and Yandle was Campbell's replacement.

So yes, his blueprint was dismantled. Not just on the ice but throughout the organization.

 

[vendetta]

You’re 100% wrong. Entire core is here. We trimmed the fat and only real loss didn’t want to stay and then retired.

He kept soft Bjugstad around too long.

He’s had plenty of time to get tougher and extended soft d-men like Pysyk.

Tallon is to blame. 100%

Sorry 50 percent of roster and entire off ice staff is dismantling. There’s a reason players were
Pissed. A 5 player core doesn’t make a team.
The role players which is exactly what we lack now are important too. It’s why barkov and tro get big minutes. So again the hypocrites can’t have it both ways. If it wasn’t a big deal gallant wouldn’t have flipped and
Lost his job

 

[Crossbar]

Did guds and kuli play twenty mins a night on our playoff team and best team
In franchise history? I would call that functional. Pens find him functional. Just cause a rebuilding van team wasn’t good enough for that type of player. He is clearly a role player. U don’t build around him. He’s not the type
To be good on a bad team but very useful on a good team. Either way they were so aweful even tho they played big mi utes for us that we went to playoffs with them. Something g doesn’t add up.

I did watch them play in the playoffs and I watched all our leads against the wild card Isles vanish. Then I watched the Isles get demolished in the 2nd round against a Tampa team without their best forward in Stamkos and their best d-man at that time Stralman.

Vancouver was definitely a bad team, but of all their d-man, Guds was one of Vancouver's worst d-man......he was their Petrovic.

 

[RainingRats]

His blueprint wasn't dismantled? Tallon was building the team from goal out. He had Lou playing well and big, heavy dmen.

The team set a team record in points.

Then after the Penguins won the cup all the changes made were to change from a strong defensive team to a fast uptempo offensive team.

Before you say it, yes Mitchell was retiring and Campbell wanted to go home to Chicago. Demers was Mitchell's replacement and Yandle was Campbell's replacement.

So yes, his blueprint was dismantled. Not just on the ice but throughout the organization.

Exactly. He had Luo locked in long term with a big cap hit so we were stuck with an ageing declining starter

Salary cap wouldn’t have allowed us to keep guds and Kulikov.

Entire core kept in tact. No top pick was traded.

Campbell was the only real loss and that’s not a dismantling. That’s Campbell’s prerogative.

Yandle was a very good acquisition.

Only pieces moved gone are out of the NHL or non-factors so it showed a keen talent analysis for not committing to them.

Every key player and prospect stayed within his blueprint.

The real issue is that Tallon’s blueprint was a gimmick and he failed to show enough progress. Instead of moving some younger assets to get proven talent he held onto them too long. Letting them go for pennies on the dollar. His extension of Matheson is a cap disaster. He bet on an expensive declining goalie for the most important position. Failed to fill the pipe with enough goalie and d prospects while going heavy on forwards. Makes no bold trades.

I know. We won the division. Yay. Lots of teams have one off good years. NJD and Edmonton are recent examples. That team overachieved.

When they fired Gallant they should have sent Tallon packing too.

 

[RainingRats]

Sorry 50 percent of roster and entire off ice staff is dismantling. There’s a reason players were
Pissed. A 5 player core doesn’t make a team.
The role players which is exactly what we lack now are important too. It’s why barkov and tro get big minutes. So again the hypocrites can’t have it both ways. If it wasn’t a big deal gallant wouldn’t have flipped and
Lost his job

More than 5. Plent of great pieces. Plenty of prospects.

You act like adding toughness is based on the off ice staff. You’re confused.

No assets that were tough were moved except for Guds and I’m glad he was moved.

Tallon has had plenty of time to get tougher but he’s failed to do so. Add it to his long list of failures

 

[Crossbar]

Dismantled lmao!! But then when Tallon lets go of Jagr, buys out Jokinen and whoever else, nah nah they magically are not a part of the blueprint anymore, they were tainted lmao!

 

[vendetta]

More than 5. Plent of great pieces. Plenty of prospects.

You act like adding toughness is based on the off ice staff. You’re confused.

No assets that were tough were moved except for Guds and I’m glad he was moved.

Tallon has had plenty of time to get tougher but he’s failed to do so. Add it to his long list of failures

Long list of failures? Playoffs twice before his team coach and off
Ice staff got gutted. He gets punted upstairs as the team completely shifts philosophy and fails miserably. The failures are
Not on tallon. He is doing a good job cleansing the mess. Would be in playoffs if not for goaltending. We r in similar situation as playoff year needing a few tweaks.
Nothing major. Just balance the team a bit more.

 

[RainingRats]

Long list of failures? Playoffs twice before his team coach and off
Ice staff got gutted. He gets punted upstairs as the team completely shifts philosophy and fails miserably. The failures are
Not on tallon. He is doing a good job cleansing the mess. Would be in playoffs if not for goaltending. We r in similar situation as playoff year needing a few tweaks.
Nothing major. Just balance the team a bit more.

Ya he’s not a good GM and the reason we had bad goaltending is because Tallon bet long term on a cap expensive starter and didn’t draft enough goalie prospects

We need a few tweaks but I have no confidence he is the guy to get them done because he’s had almost a decade

 

[vendetta]

I did watch them play in the playoffs and I watched all our leads against the wild card Isles vanish. Then I watched the Isles get demolished in the 2nd round against a Tampa team without their best forward in Stamkos and their best d-man at that time Stralman.

Vancouver was definitely a bad team, but of all their d-man, Guds was one of Vancouver's worst d-man......he was their Petrovic.

Our best players were under 25. First taste of
Playoffs. Kuli and guds did a much better job against Tavares 5 on5 when they were put up against him.the team
Needed a couple tweaks
And more experience. It wasn’t fluke. If u wanna
Call that season fluke then u can call this season fluke in the opposite way.

 

[vendetta]

Ya he’s not a good GM and the reason we had bad goaltending is because Tallon bet long term on a cap expensive starter and didn’t draft enough goalie prospects

We need a few tweaks but I have no confidence he is the guy to get them done because he’s had almost a decade

So now acquiring Lou was a mistake? The reason our goaltending is the way it is is because of reimer. Not Lou. Reimer handcuffed him. Lou is a capeable back up with adequate rest. Lou stabilized our goatneidng for our young core when we needed it. Basically everything tallon has done has been successful outside of bolland. And even he was ltir and wasn’t bad but again owners dumped assets to save a few bucks. Cheap
Meddling owners and tallon has done a great job reguardless. So much turmoil. And he made playoffs twice before they railroaded and meddled

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Exactly. He had Luo locked in long term with a big cap hit so we were stuck with an ageing declining starter

Salary cap wouldn’t have allowed us to keep guds and Kulikov.

Entire core kept in tact. No top pick was traded.

Campbell was the only real loss and that’s not a dismantling. That’s Campbell’s prerogative.

Yandle was a very good acquisition.

Only pieces moved gone are out of the NHL or non-factors so it showed a keen talent analysis for not committing to them.

Every key player and prospect stayed within his blueprint.

The real issue is that Tallon’s blueprint was a gimmick and he failed to show enough progress. Instead of moving some younger assets to get proven talent he held onto them too long. Letting them go for pennies on the dollar. His extension of Matheson is a cap disaster. He bet on an expensive declining goalie for the most important position. Failed to fill the pipe with enough goalie and d prospects while going heavy on forwards. Makes no bold trades.

I know. We won the division. Yay. Lots of teams have one off good years. NJD and Edmonton are recent examples. That team overachieved.

When they fired Gallant they should have sent Tallon packing too.

Who would we have traded though? We had to overpay guys like Versteeg and Fleischmann to come here. I guess Tallon should have said a decade long blueprint. It's taken 5 years to suck just to get some decent prospects who have now turned into our core.

You cant have it both ways. Cant draft superstar players without the team sucking, we had no UFA appeal and to hope and pray of signing a team to a championship rarely works.

Cant trade players that arent worth much for superstar players. Tallons first 5 years were basically drafting for the now. That's how bad both our NHL/AHL teams were.

How long have other teams been building as well? EDM, TOR, CGY, COL, WPG etc. Only one of those teams have been to the final four.

 

[RainingRats]

Who would we have traded though? We had to overpay guys like Versteeg and Fleischmann to come here. I guess Tallon should have said a decade long blueprint. It's taken 5 years to suck just to get some decent prospects who have now turned into our core.

You cant have it both ways. Cant draft superstar players without the team sucking, we had no UFA appeal and to hope and pray of signing a team to a championship rarely works.

Cant trade players that arent worth much for superstar players. Tallons first 5 years were basically drafting for the now. That's how bad both our NHL/AHL teams were.

How long have other teams been building as well? EDM, TOR, CGY, COL, WPG etc. Only one of those teams have been to the final four.

I’ve listed plenty of complaints and he objectively blew the 2010 draft which was something like 5 picks in top 35(?) By keeping Scott Luce around he ruined our draft potential bc Luce sucks. His drafting has been average at best/below average during the pre luce days. Those are key years for a rebuilding team. His obsession with character kept him away from more skilled guys.