Talented Team with some Fundamental Flaws

[Colt.45Orr]

Since no one has bothered to revive this thread. Curious: is coaching no longer our #1 flaw?

No, Cassidy made the needed adaptations after his (super-flawed) games 1,3 and 5; he stopped trying to outsmart himself and let the team play really physical in game 6 and turn the series back around.

Also, speaking of physical: I'm not sure it makes sense to try and get into a physical battle with CBJ. I'm not saying to pass up a hit if it is there, but their D is big and super mobile --they can absorb tons of contact and sidestep hits with skill. .
We will have to see how it all shakes out, but, unlike Toronto, the CBJ D should not wilt under a heavy forecheck (I'll miss you Zeitsev, you're my boy!) so in that series it *might* make more sense to peel off hits in order to keep up speed for back-pressure.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Since no one has bothered to revive this thread. Curious: is coaching no longer our #1 flaw?

much like how we psych ourselves out against montreal… there were clear signs that we were letting Toronto get into our heads early in the series

luckily when we fell behind 2-1 we stopped a lot of crap and played our hockey
we went 3-1 outscoring them around 10 goals in those last 4 games... but they put a scare
into us at the beginning of this round because they were trying to play a 'speed' game or some
such nonsense

its interesting to see the 8 teams advancing in the playoffs... not a lot of the purely skilled
teams doing that well. seems size and defensive compete still have a lot of value at playoff time

 

[PlayMakers]

Since no one has bothered to revive this thread. Curious: is coaching no longer our #1 flaw?

I don't know, I think if you asked Cassidy after G5 if their coaching in this series was a positive or negative through 5 games he would have said a negative, which is why he made major changes and then listed all those changes on national TV.

It's possible for something to be a problem, until it isn't. The 4th line was a problem, until it changed, then it wasn't. Playing conservative hockey because you're worried about TO's quick strike game was an interesting plan but it wasn't working so he changed to be more aggressive and that, as they say, made all the difference. As I said in the Cassidy thread, he deserves major praise for making that change.

I still would like to see Cassidy target the other team's best players the way they target Pasta and Marchand. And I'd love to see us add a Tom Wilson type in the top9 who can punish a guy like Muzzin in a series. I don't see a downside to that wishlist.

 

[Colt.45Orr]

I don't know, I think if you asked Cassidy after G5 if their coaching in this series was a positive or negative through 5 games he would have said a negative, which is why he made major changes and then listed all those changes on national TV.

It's possible for something to be a problem, until it isn't. The 4th line was a problem, until it changed, then it wasn't. Playing conservative hockey because you're worried about TO's quick strike game was an interesting plan but it wasn't working so he changed to be more aggressive and that, as they say, made all the difference. As I said in the Cassidy thread, he deserves major praise for making that change.

I still would like to see Cassidy target the other team's best players the way they target Pasta and Marchand. And I'd love to see us add a Tom Wilson type in the top9 who can punish a guy like Muzzin in a series. I don't see a downside to that wishlist.

You nailed it again, but I really don't understand how people don't get this concept: "It is possible for something to be a problem, until it isn't".

Cassidy was not making good coaching decisions and it was a major reason we were down 3-2 in the series. IF he had not made changes, we would have lost and he would have had tons of blame. I am more than willing to give him his deserved credit for making changes that allowed us to play our game and win.
IF he had not made those changes, I would not have faith in him and would want him gone.

IF.


It's the same thing as when a player is terrible for a stretch of games and someone calls him out for his awful play and then, as soon as he finally has a strong game, people jump on here with the "HAHAHA, you must feel silly now!" mentality.
Uhh, nope, he was being called out BECAUSE he is a good player (who was underperforming).

 

[Spoked-B]

I don't know, I think if you asked Cassidy after G5 if their coaching in this series was a positive or negative through 5 games he would have said a negative, which is why he made major changes and then listed all those changes on national TV.

It's possible for something to be a problem, until it isn't. The 4th line was a problem, until it changed, then it wasn't. Playing conservative hockey because you're worried about TO's quick strike game was an interesting plan but it wasn't working so he changed to be more aggressive and that, as they say, made all the difference. As I said in the Cassidy thread, he deserves major praise for making that change.

I still would like to see Cassidy target the other team's best players the way they target Pasta and Marchand. And I'd love to see us add a Tom Wilson type in the top9 who can punish a guy like Muzzin in a series. I don't see a downside to that wishlist.

What I was getting at is the premise that coaching was a huge flaw. The Bruins under Cassidy have been one of the better teams in the league, and that's after there was a question on how we'd do "post-Claude". I thought Colt's assessment of "one playoff series in five years" as disingenuous. They've played, 3 playoffs under Cassidy, right? First year we lose in the first round against Ottawa, who goes on a great run, and got some pretty favorable reffing--and that's after him taking over for the last 3rd of the year. Next year we lose in the 2nd round to a pretty stacked Tampa team, and that too, wasn't as one-sided as the 4-1 series loss would lead you to believe when you consider the horrible non-call on Kucherov tripping McAvoy, as well as having to use something like the 10th-12th defensemen on the depth chart due to injuries. Which brings us to this year, where we've made at least the second round, and maybe we get past that hurdle.

Wouldn't the major praise you mentioned point to where he's a good coach, not a bad one? He recognized adjustments that he needed to make and made some. We got a lot of heavy forecheck in game 2, and it was great, but after the game all you heard was how the Bruins got away with murder and that the next game was going to get called a lot tighter. There was a perception that if the Bruins played the same type of game again that they'd be a parade of Bruins going to the penalty box. As it turned out, they lost the game by playing to conservatively, so in hindsight it's easy to say they should have just kept slamming the Leafs around and took their chance to see if the refs would have catered to the Leafs (media and fans') whining. But ultimately, what he ended up doing worked--and that's with two of his superstars struggling offensively (and one both offensively and defensively).

So, with that, I'll bow out of the discussion as I think it's pretty clear on which side of the coaching fence I stand on

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I know the anti-Cassidy crowd was using his exits in Rounds 1, 2 (and potentially 1 this year) as ammo against him.

Just be fair, Clode’s first three years as B’s coach:

1st round loss
2nd round loss
HISTORICAL 2nd Round loss.

So, unless the B’s go up 3-0 on the Jackets (and are leading 3-0 in Game 7) and then suck the tailpipe, Butch is probably sitting a little prettier than Clode.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I would like the B’s to address their need for a legit Top 6 RW this offseason.

That said, last night’s win highlights the need in today’s NHL to build a four line team, not just a Top 6.

I am also happy to say that it highlights the fact that Kadri probably cost Toronto the series (again) with his selfishness and stupidity. The B’s 3rd line was much better than Toronto’s (minus Kadri), and the Bottom 6 was better as a whole after Kuraly returned.

It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

 

[Prince Pasta]

I would like the B’s to address their need for a legit Top 6 RW this offseason.

That said, last night’s win highlights the need in today’s NHL to build a four line team, not just a Top 6.

I am also happy to say that it highlights the fact that Kadri probably cost Toronto the series (again) with his selfishness and stupidity. The B’s 3rd line was much better than Toronto’s (minus Kadri), and the Bottom 6 was better as a whole after Kuraly returned.

It couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

Think they can make a run for Eberle or will he resign?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Think they can make a run for Eberle or will he resign?

No idea.

I have not been a huge Eberle guy, but he played very well for a defensive-minded guy this year in Trotz.

I’m guessing that Eberle is NOT on the radar? Given the makeup of the B’s (they already have a number of 29+ year old players signed to deals), I would like to see the B’s go after someone bigger/younger than Eberle.

A lot probably depends on how the B’s feel about Heinen on the RW, Studnicka, etc.

 

[PlayMakers]

What I was getting at is the premise that coaching was a huge flaw. The Bruins under Cassidy have been one of the better teams in the league, and that's after there was a question on how we'd do "post-Claude". I thought Colt's assessment of "one playoff series in five years" as disingenuous. They've played, 3 playoffs under Cassidy, right? First year we lose in the first round against Ottawa, who goes on a great run, and got some pretty favorable reffing--and that's after him taking over for the last 3rd of the year. Next year we lose in the 2nd round to a pretty stacked Tampa team, and that too, wasn't as one-sided as the 4-1 series loss would lead you to believe when you consider the horrible non-call on Kucherov tripping McAvoy, as well as having to use something like the 10th-12th defensemen on the depth chart due to injuries. Which brings us to this year, where we've made at least the second round, and maybe we get past that hurdle.

Wouldn't the major praise you mentioned point to where he's a good coach, not a bad one? He recognized adjustments that he needed to make and made some. We got a lot of heavy forecheck in game 2, and it was great, but after the game all you heard was how the Bruins got away with murder and that the next game was going to get called a lot tighter. There was a perception that if the Bruins played the same type of game again that they'd be a parade of Bruins going to the penalty box. As it turned out, they lost the game by playing to conservatively, so in hindsight it's easy to say they should have just kept slamming the Leafs around and took their chance to see if the refs would have catered to the Leafs (media and fans') whining. But ultimately, what he ended up doing worked--and that's with two of his superstars struggling offensively (and one both offensively and defensively).

So, with that, I'll bow out of the discussion as I think it's pretty clear on which side of the coaching fence I stand on

I understood what you were getting at. Cassidy has been good in the regular season, there are things that bug me but nobody was complaining about that. There is a big difference between coaching the regular season and coaching the playoffs where you see the same team 7 times in a row and learn each other's tendencies. I won't speak for Colt but I was disappointed with Cassidy in those other series. For example, against Ottawa I didn't understand why we weren't hitting Karlsson at all. I also thought we were too predictable. There was a big focus on down low plays after Julien and once Ottawa figured that out they cheated the passes behind the net and took all the steam out of that play. We didn't adjust. I won't keep going with every series but IMHO there were similar questions and a lack of flexibility.

So if you also had those questions, and you saw how we played in Games 1-5 then it's not a big leap to wonder if the coach's approach to this series was flawed. What Cassidy did in this series that I don't think he did in the other ones, was adjust. Switching to a more aggressive forecheck, pressuring the puck carrier instead of backing off to the Nzone and trapping, getting back to quick ups and making plays on breakouts instead of chipping it out to play in the Nzone... IMO those changes were critical. We went from being a team that was reacting and defending all series to a team that was dictating the pace and style of play.

At the end of the day, Cassidy went from being one of the reasons we were losing the series to one of the reasons we won it. And for me, the pivot came when he made those changes he talked about in Game 6.

 

[Prince Pasta]

No idea.

I have not been a huge Eberle guy, but he played very well for a defensive-minded guy this year in Trotz.

I’m guessing that Eberle is NOT on the radar? Given the makeup of the B’s (they already have a number of 29+ year old players signed to deals), I would like to see the B’s go after someone bigger/younger than Eberle.

A lot probably depends on how the B’s feel about Heinen on the RW, Studnicka, etc.

I'm not a Heinen hater by any means but see him as that versatile third liner who can fill in when needed (aka Peverley)

 

[PlayMakers]

I know the anti-Cassidy crowd was using his exits in Rounds 1, 2 (and potentially 1 this year) as ammo against him.

Just be fair, Clode’s first three years as B’s coach:

1st round loss
2nd round loss
HISTORICAL 2nd Round loss.

So, unless the B’s go up 3-0 on the Jackets (and are leading 3-0 in Game 7) and then suck the tailpipe, Butch is probably sitting a little prettier than Clode.

Julien also had won a Championship in Jr, had been named Coach of the Year in the AHL and won a Jack Adams as coach of the year in the NHL at that point.

Even with all that, I'd say 90% of fans wanted Julien fired after his 3rd year/playoff loss. I know Colt mentioned letting Cassidy go if he couldn't get out of the first round this year, but I think the majority of fans would not have wanted him fired even if he didn't get as far as Julien in year 3.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Julien also had won a Championship in Jr, had been named Coach of the Year in the AHL and won a Jack Adams as coach of the year in the NHL at that point.

Even with all that, I'd say 90% of fans wanted Julien fired after his 3rd year/playoff loss. I know Colt mentioned letting Cassidy go if he couldn't get out of the first round this year, but I think the majority of fans would not have wanted him fired even if he didn't get as far as Julien in year 3.

I’m not being flip, but I don’t really care what the coach did before he got here (goes for Julien and Cassidy).

Generally speaking, I would say that the quality of competition that the B’s have been eliminated by the last 3 seasons has been better than what Julien faced his first 3 seasons.

In 07-08 he did a nice job and went 7 vs a 105 pt Montreal team (that was then eliminated by a lesser Philly team).

In 08-09, great regular season (116 pts), sweeps MTL, then loses to an inferior CAR team (who was swept by PIT in the next round).

In 09-10, beat a BUF team that finished ahead of them, then blew a 3-0 to a lesser Philly team that got hot and ended up losing the Cup to Chicago in 6 games.

Obviously, the B’s win the Cup in 10-11, but were almost eliminated by the Habs in the first round. If that happens, I think Clode gets canned.

We know the quality of the teams the B’s have faced under Cassidy.

I don’t think he gets canned even if they lose to Toronto. I would like to see them at least get to the ECF’s, given that this year’s regular season juggernaut was knocked out.

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

You nailed it again, but I really don't understand how people don't get this concept: "It is possible for something to be a problem, until it isn't".

Cassidy was not making good coaching decisions and it was a major reason we were down 3-2 in the series. IF he had not made changes, we would have lost and he would have had tons of blame. I am more than willing to give him his deserved credit for making changes that allowed us to play our game and win.
IF he had not made those changes, I would not have faith in him and would want him gone.

IF.


It's the same thing as when a player is terrible for a stretch of games and someone calls him out for his awful play and then, as soon as he finally has a strong game, people jump on here with the "HAHAHA, you must feel silly now!" mentality.
Uhh, nope, he was being called out BECAUSE he is a good player (who was underperforming).

Shots fired at a large handful of posters here.

 

[jdz]

It's the same thing as when a player is terrible for a stretch of games and someone calls him out for his awful play and then, as soon as he finally has a strong game, people jump on here with the "HAHAHA, you must feel silly now!" mentality.
Uhh, nope, he was being called out BECAUSE he is a good player (who was underperforming).

Really good hockey players that have an ability and the mental fortitude to take over NHL hockey games don't give two hoots about anyone "calling them out" unless it's someone within their own organisation. They certainly don't give a single toss about anyone on the internet calling them out.

Attributing someone calling a player out as the main reason for their change in performance on the ice borders on absurd and completely underestimates what these players have to contend with game to game.

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

No idea.

I have not been a huge Eberle guy, but he played very well for a defensive-minded guy this year in Trotz.

I’m guessing that Eberle is NOT on the radar? Given the makeup of the B’s (they already have a number of 29+ year old players signed to deals), I would like to see the B’s go after someone bigger/younger than Eberle.

A lot probably depends on how the B’s feel about Heinen on the RW, Studnicka, etc.

@Dom - OHL has said in the past that Don is a big Skinner fan. I would definitely look to go that route. Not a soft player, he's very chippy.But obviously not a bruiser either. I would think we would need to get a 10-15 goal physical winger on the third line though if we go the Skinner route.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Shots fired at a large handful of posters here.

Whoa! That never happens...

 

[GloryDaze4877]

@Dom - OHL has said in the past that Don is a big Skinner fan. I would definitely look to go that route. Not a soft player, he's very chippy.But obviously not a bruiser either. I would think we would need to get a 10-15 goal physical winger on the third line though if we go the Skinner route.

I like Skinner, but he faded badly in the latter part of the season (only 10 goals over the last 34 games). That said, scorer’s are streaky and he finished with 40.

I think he’s going to get paid a ton of money. If you are Buffalo, after the season he had, how do you let him walk if he wants to be there?

Assuming they don’t re-sign MoJo, you have some combo of these guys for the Top 9:

63, 37, 88, 74, 46, 43, 13.

If you went:

63-37-88/??
74-46-??/88
43-13-??

That leaves two holes in the Top 9 at RW. I think the B’s have a bunch of candidates for the 3rd line spot (Studnicka, Kuhlman, Bjork, Cehlarik)...the 1st/2nd line hole is the issue.

 

[Gonzothe7thDman]

I like Skinner, but he faded badly in the latter part of the season (only 10 goals over the last 34 games). That said, scorer’s are streaky and he finished with 40.

I think he’s going to get paid a ton of money. If you are Buffalo, after the season he had, how do you let him walk if he wants to be there?

Assuming they don’t re-sign MoJo, you have some combo of these guys for the Top 9:

63, 37, 88, 74, 46, 43, 13.

If you went:

63-37-88/??
74-46-??/88
43-13-??

That leaves two holes in the Top 9 at RW. I think the B’s have a bunch of candidates for the 3rd line spot (Studnicka, Kuhlman, Bjork, Cehlarik)...the 1st/2nd line hole is the issue.

If Skinner is a pure money guy, Buffalo won't have an issue keeping him. And if I was them, I would pay the price barring some absurd #. He seemed to click well with Eichel, especially early in the season.

If Skinner wants to be paid, while also making the playoffs, he might look to go a different route. He mentioned recently in an interview that he wants to win (what athlete wouldn't say that I guess). From what I gather he likes Buffalo because it is fairly close to home. Boston is an hour and a half flight. Not quite the hour and a half car ride but close-ish.

The only way I think it would work cap wise though, is if you found somewhere to send Backes without taking any money back.

 

[prizminferno]

I want Eberle, he looks better on the Isle as an all around player than he ever did

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I want Eberle, he looks better on the Isle as an all around player than he ever did

Eberle had only 19g/18a this year and his -6 was a team worst. He and Barzal (-5) were the only regular F’s in the lineup with negative numbers.

Not sure he’s as good an “all around” player as you think?

Heinen finished with 34 pts (+13). I would rather pay him a lot less to give you good defense and similar point totals.

 

[prizminferno]

Eberle had only 19g/18a this year and his -6 was a team worst. He and Barzal (-5) were the only regular F’s in the lineup with negative numbers.

Not sure he’s as good an “all around” player as you think?

Heinen finished with 34 pts (+13). I would rather pay him a lot less to give you good defense and similar point totals.

Heinen isn't going anywhere regardless. And I said he looked better, not that he's that great. He will be getting a pay cut though I'm sure...

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Heinen isn't going anywhere regardless. And I said he looked better, not that he's that great. He will be getting a pay cut though I'm sure...

Maybe I should have worded it differently? Based on his numbers in NY this year, I think Eberle might be a better third line option at this point in his career. The B’s need a legit Top 6 RW, not another 2nd/3rd line Tweener.

 

[prizminferno]

Maybe I should have worded it differently? Based on his numbers in NY this year, I think Eberle might be a better third line option at this point in his career. The B’s need a legit Top 6 RW, not another 2nd/3rd line Tweener.

Tough to say. The Isles were horrible on offense all year so are his numbers suppressed? If he's a 20-25 goal scorer that is certainly top 6 RW calibre... I'd pay him 4.5 but who knows.

 

[JRull86]

Bruins really need to look at if Taylor Hall is a guy who would be available in NJ prior to draft/this summer.

He is the perfect fit for 1st or 2nd line RW on this team.

Entering final year of deal, and I've got to wonder what the likelihood of re-signing with NJ is.

I'd take a long, hard look at dealing for him.