Switzerland: Swiss young guns

[VictorLustig]

If you beat SVK 4-1 and let them no chance for a win and if you see that SVK was able to hold a 1-3 to Canada I see no reason why SWI should get such a blowout. Of course a new coach can't change everything but Celio just had so many chances now and never succeded. Of course we'll always be outsiders vs. Swe and Can but with the right attitude and the correct tactics it should be possible to hang on and get a good result. Last time Swi played Can on an U18 IHWC Switzerland won

Switzerland has also beaten the US earlier this season and tied Sweden. The team also played well at the ivan Hlinka tournament, not sure what happened against Sweden and Canada in Sochi.

 

[torero]

If you beat SVK 4-1 and let them no chance for a win and if you see that SVK was able to hold a 1-3 to Canada I see no reason why SWI should get such a blowout. Of course a new coach can't change everything but Celio just had so many chances now and never succeded. Of course we'll always be outsiders vs. Swe and Can but with the right attitude and the correct tactics it should be possible to hang on and get a good result. Last time Swi played Can on an U18 IHWC Switzerland won

On top of that shots vs were not in the same proportion than the goals !!

shots vs were around 2/3 ... so nothing to result into a 10-1 or 6-0 !!
unless goalies suck, unless you cannot score, unless their goalie sucks (for us !)

This is why is was asking for some insight if available.

I do not like Celio, and i think he definitely mishandled players ... but in this relation (shots vs vs goals) ... their is little he can do.

 

[jonas2244]

Strong reaction, to be honest, I did not expect that.

 

[VictorLustig]

Kevin Fiala will move to HV71 for next season, apparently him and his parents weren't happy with the Malmö organization. All of their best young guys have left or are leaving Malmö the last few years, something is definitely wrong there. HV71 will be a good team for him, he might not see much icetime with the senior club since they are one of the better SEL-teams but he will get an opportunity to play on a very strong J20 team (champions this season).

 

[The Noot]

Congratulations to Mirco Müller, Sven Andrighetto, Fabrice Herzog and Joël Vermin

4 guys drafted this year. I guess we can say that this fits the general swiss reaction pretty well:

 

[stv11]

Well, I guess it's a bit too early to tell, we'll see in a few year how well this draft class fares.

I just hope Andrighetto still comes to Geneva. I can't see him crack the Montreal lineup, one year in the NLA would do him good. Plus he may have a chance to make the national team.

 

[jonas2244]

Andrighetto will get an ELC and play in Hamilton, I'm quite sure of that.
And I think this is the right decision, a year in the NLA will bring nothing to him.

 

[stv11]

NLA is his best option for next season, unless he cracks the NHL lineup, which I doubt. I've seen so many hopes get destroyed in the AHL that I don't trust this league anymore.

 

[The Noot]

NLA is his best option for next season, unless he cracks the NHL lineup, which I doubt. I've seen so many hopes get destroyed in the AHL that I don't trust this league anymore.

But the AHL is a lot closer to the NHL than the NLA (at least in terms of playing style and media attention). If he really targets the NHL, he should probably give it a try. There may have been guys that tried the way of the AHL and couldn't succeed, but we also saw tremendous talent stay in Switzerland, just to get overlooked or too comfortable.

There will be Wicks or Ambühls and there will be Niederreiters or Bärtschis. Just as there have been guys like Brunner, Diaz or Hiller that could make the jump from the NLA to the NHL and there have been guys like Sprunger, Stephan, Genoni or (Patrik) Bärtschi that couldn't make it or just got forgotten over here.

 

[stv11]

But the AHL is a lot closer to the NHL than the NLA (at least in terms of playing style and media attention). If he really targets the NHL, he should probably give it a try. There may have been guys that tried the way of the AHL and couldn't succeed, but we also saw tremendous talent stay in Switzerland, just to get overlooked or too comfortable.

There will be Wicks or Ambühls and there will be Niederreiters or Bärtschis. Just as there have been guys like Brunner, Diaz or Hiller that could make the jump from the NLA to the NHL and there have been guys like Sprunger, Stephan, Genoni or (Patrik) Bärtschi that couldn't make it or just got forgotten over here.

Wick and Ambühl developped into good players in the NLA, both wasted a year of their career in the AHL (same for Blindenbacher). There are good reason why Sprunger and Genoni won't make it, their skillset isn't well suited for the NHL (same for Conz). Stephan tried the AHL route and it didn't work out either. And regarding Niederreiter, I think it's pretty obvious he was mishandled. I'd bet he would have developped better had he been loaned to an NLA team for the 2011-12 season.

Same for other European country, several examples show that players develop better in their local league than in the AHL.

 

[The Noot]

Wick and Ambühl developped into good players in the NLA, both wasted a year of their career in the AHL (same for Blindenbacher). There are good reason why Sprunger and Genoni won't make it, their skillset isn't well suited for the NHL (same for Conz). Stephan tried the AHL route and it didn't work out either. And regarding Niederreiter, I think it's pretty obvious he was mishandled. I'd bet he would have developped better had he been loaned to an NLA team for the 2011-12 season.

Same for other European country, several examples show that players develop better in their local league than in the AHL.

I guess our opinions just differ in this case. You could also say that guys like Blindenbacher or Ambühl simply didn't have the skill/size/intangibles/whatever to be effective NHL players or that Wick most likely would have made it, if he would have been patient enough. So while I agree with you that these guys wasted a year of their career in the AHL, I don't see the "problem" with the AHL, but moreso with the players.

If you are talented enough and the circumstances are good, you get the recognition in the AHL. Just as you get it in Switzerland, as Brunner and Hiller showed.
I personally would prefer if Andrighetto played in the AHL, mainly due to the rink size and the media/scouting attention he gets over there, but I doubt that he'd ruin his development in Switzerland, too.

 

[stv11]

I guess our opinions just differ in this case. You could also say that guys like Blindenbacher or Ambühl simply didn't have the skill/size/intangibles/whatever to be effective NHL players or that Wick most likely would have made it, if he would have been patient enough. So while I agree with you that these guys wasted a year of their career in the AHL, I don't see the "problem" with the AHL, but moreso with the players.

If you are talented enough and the circumstances are good, you get the recognition in the AHL. Just as you get it in Switzerland, as Brunner and Hiller showed.
I personally would prefer if Andrighetto played in the AHL, mainly due to the rink size and the media/scouting attention he gets over there, but I doubt that he'd ruin his development in Switzerland, too.

It's not just my opinion, it's been backed by studies, most notably the one the IIHF made a few seasons ago (http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/sport/youth.html). I also remember some posters on the prospect board coming to the same conclusion with their own studies.

 

[Rafik Soliman]

It's not just my opinion, it's been backed by studies, most notably the one the IIHF made a few seasons ago (http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/sport/youth.html). I also remember some posters on the prospect board coming to the same conclusion with their own studies.

Of course there are good examples and bad ones... In my eyes this IIHF-Studies was done to work a little bit against the wave that a lot of European took (especially Czechs, Lativans and Slovaks) and did got very early to Northamerica...

In my eyes, the NLA still has not the recognition in Northamerica, that makes General Managers believe it's good for their developement to play in Switzerland...

So I too believe, that if Andrighetto want's to be close to the Canadiens-Organisation he has to sign an ELC as soon as possible and play in Hamilton... I mean in the end, the Habs have to work with him to make him an NHL-Player and you have to agree that we do play a hockey in Switzerland which is very different from the Northamerican one... We are a skating-leauge, but Andrighetto already is a quick and fast skater, so he has to get used to the rougher NA-Hockey and believe me, the AHL/NHL is another major stepp from the CHL...

 

[stv11]

Of course there are good examples and bad ones... In my eyes this IIHF-Studies was done to work a little bit against the wave that a lot of European took (especially Czechs, Lativans and Slovaks) and did got very early to Northamerica...

Wether that study had an agenda or not, it's not enough to explain the huge difference between the different development path. I mean, we're not talking about a 51% vs a 49% success rate.

In my eyes, the NLA still has not the recognition in Northamerica, that makes General Managers believe it's good for their developement to play in Switzerland...

So I too believe, that if Andrighetto want's to be close to the Canadiens-Organisation he has to sign an ELC as soon as possible and play in Hamilton... I mean in the end, the Habs have to work with him to make him an NHL-Player and you have to agree that we do play a hockey in Switzerland which is very different from the Northamerican one... We are a skating-leauge, but Andrighetto already is a quick and fast skater, so he has to get used to the rougher NA-Hockey and believe me, the AHL/NHL is another major stepp from the CHL...

Geneva's brand of hockey probably is the closest thing we have from a North American style, although with more emphasis on skating. Anyway, is it really desirable to force a skill player to play a grinding style of hockey if the end goal is to bring said skills to the next level? Andrighetto was drafted because he can skate and produce offensively, if he ever becomes a top player (whatever your definition of a top player is), it won't be as a grinder. I'm afraid that focusing on toughness at this stage in his development would make him average in everything a great at nothing.

 

[The Noot]

Wether that study had an agenda or not, it's not enough to explain the huge difference between the different development path. I mean, we're not talking about a 51% vs a 49% success rate.



Geneva's brand of hockey probably is the closest thing we have from a North American style, although with more emphasis on skating. Anyway, is it really desirable to force a skill player to play a grinding style of hockey if the end goal is to bring said skills to the next level? Andrighetto was drafted because he can skate and produce offensively, if he ever becomes a top player (whatever your definition of a top player is), it won't be as a grinder. I'm afraid that focusing on toughness at this stage in his development would make him average in everything a great at nothing.

He wouldn't play in the AHL to learn to play a gritty game, but to learn to play AGAINST players that play a gritty game. Something he wouldn't learn in the NLA, at least not on the same level.
But thanks for the link to the study. I'll take a look at it when I'm back home.

 

[doubleaxes]

Both leagues have their pros and contras but in the end it is all about the player's
mentality and attitude. Sven looks like a NA style hockey fan, his dream of being an NHLer is very strong and it was always clear for him that he wanted to go over the pound.

Now that he is there he should stay there. He has not been spoiled by salaries and way of living hockey in NLA(Like Wick and Ambühl or Blindie). The AHL will seem to him like a natural step. He will make it(don't care about his size).

 

[leafers]

Anyone seen Fabrice Herzog play or know a thing or two about him?

Lack of information about him, so any input would be highly appreciated.

 

[jonas2244]

I never saw him play, Rafik may have some more information. It's just a very unexpected draft, I didn't expect anyone playing in Switzerland getting drafted and if there would have been a long list of players that should have been selected before Herzog.

 

[doubleaxes]

here another complete list of Swiss players for CHL import Drafts this time: 10 swiss and 2 guys with Swiss licences all active in Switzerland

Herzog also appears in this list.

12ème rang: Timo Meier (left wing - Rapperswil) - Halifax Mooseheads

15ème rang: Jason Fuchs (centre - La Chaux-de-Fonds) - Rouyn-Noranda Huskies

26ème rang: Phil Baltisberger (defense - GCK Lions) - Guelph Storm

38ème rang: Pius Suter (left wing - GCK Lions) - Guelph Storm

42ème rang: Fabrice Herzog (right wing - Zoug) - Remparts de Québec

55ème rang: Edson Harlacher (left wing - Kloten) - Kamloops Blazers

59ème rang: Kris Schmidli (centre - GCK Lions) - Kelowna Rockets

72ème rang: Tim Wieser (right wing - Kloten) - Sherbrooke Phoenix

92ème rang: Vincent Praplan (left wing - Kloten) - North Bay Battalion

113ème rang: Yannick Rathgeb (defense - Langnau) - Plymouth Whalers

Dänish Nicolas Ehlers(Biel) 6th Moosehehad and Austrian Dominic Zwerger(Davos) by Spokane both with swiss licences.

http://www.planetehockey.com/news-import-draft-dix-suisses-selectionnes,40326.html

 

[Rafik Soliman]

Geneva's brand of hockey probably is the closest thing we have from a North American style, although with more emphasis on skating. Anyway, is it really desirable to force a skill player to play a grinding style of hockey if the end goal is to bring said skills to the next level? Andrighetto was drafted because he can skate and produce offensively, if he ever becomes a top player (whatever your definition of a top player is), it won't be as a grinder. I'm afraid that focusing on toughness at this stage in his development would make him average in everything a great at nothing.

You missunderstood me...

It's not the question if Andrighetto is able to hit and grind... The Question is if he's able to play against tougher opponnent who hit and grind AGAINST HIM...

sorry, if I didn't express myself clearly...

And sorry stv11, but the NLA clearly isn't a hard hitting league to prove that... We have more soft players in the NLA than probably in a canadian beer league...

 

[Rafik Soliman]

Anyone seen Fabrice Herzog play or know a thing or two about him?

Lack of information about him, so any input would be highly appreciated.

Plays the wing and has a decent shot and is a solid skater. Obviously Fabrice Herzog has good size for a forward. Can be described as an offensive forward with decent finishing qualities. Is not afraid to lay out his body to make a hit or battle hard along the boards. Like almost all Swiss players, there's still plenty of room for him to bulk up, and he sure has to, to handle the tougher NA-Game...

To be honest with you, I didn't have him even close as a draftable player and the Maple Leafs-scouts sure must have seen something in him that I didn't see... He also wasn't close to the under-20 Swiss Nationalteam, but played all games for the under-19...

 

[stv11]

And sorry stv11, but the NLA clearly isn't a hard hitting league to prove that... We have more soft players in the NLA than probably in a canadian beer league...

There is more to North American hockey than hitting. I was thinking about grinding, north-south hockey, pressure on the net... those are all key aspects of Geneva's style of hockey.

Anyway, what worries me is the AHL's track record rather than those theorical aspects. Spending time there didn't help Riesen, Vauclair, Bezina, Stephan or Ramholt build an NHL career. On the other hand, even superstars such as Zetterberg or Malkin took some time to develop home and went straight to the NHL. Few players are world class at age 20, there is nothing wrong with being patient.

That's why I think he should play out his contract with Geneva. But I'd still be happy if he goes to the AHL and proves me wrong.

 

[leafers]

Plays the wing and has a decent shot and is a solid skater. Obviously Fabrice Herzog has good size for a forward. Can be described as an offensive forward with decent finishing qualities. Is not afraid to lay out his body to make a hit or battle hard along the boards. Like almost all Swiss players, there's still plenty of room for him to bulk up, and he sure has to, to handle the tougher NA-Game...

To be honest with you, I didn't have him even close as a draftable player and the Maple Leafs-scouts sure must have seen something in him that I didn't see... He also wasn't close to the under-20 Swiss Nationalteam, but played all games for the under-19...

Appreciate the input.
Thanks.

 

[Rafik Soliman]

There is more to North American hockey than hitting. I was thinking about grinding, north-south hockey, pressure on the net... those are all key aspects of Geneva's style of hockey.

Anyway, what worries me is the AHL's track record rather than those theorical aspects. Spending time there didn't help Riesen, Vauclair, Bezina, Stephan or Ramholt build an NHL career. On the other hand, even superstars such as Zetterberg or Malkin took some time to develop home and went straight to the NHL. Few players are world class at age 20, there is nothing wrong with being patient.

That's why I think he should play out his contract with Geneva. But I'd still be happy if he goes to the AHL and proves me wrong.

I in a way agree with you, but there is a hughe difference with those cases, and that is the league they were playing in...

There is no question, that Sweden and Russia have the acceptance from NHL-General Manager (well in Russia it's also a contractal-thing with the cold-war between the KHL and NHL) and so they would agree to let a Player one or two seasons longer playing there...

But our League is making progess, but still is miles away from being a good preparation for the NHL in case of game-preparation, post-game rehabilitation and of course the style of play.

I mean I just read an article about the summer-training of Mark Streit in the Tages-Anzeiger, were there was one quote that catched my eye "Summer training in Switzerland in the "weight/exercise room" usually is with the whole team for 2 1/2 hours and 1 1/2 hours the guys were talking to eachothers instead of exercising..."

So me as a NHL-GM, I would want my Prospects to be as close I can have them, so I can watch them all the time and have their eating habits, working habits and pre- and post-game stuff under control...

 

[chokei]

Maybe a bit late to the party but I'm with stv on this one. You might say that it's a small sample size still, but look at the best Swiss NHL players. Nothing has changed in the last 10 years, even if a lot more Swiss players are trying their luck in the CHL/AHL now than 10 years ago. Our starplayers all came straight out of Switzerland. Josi, Streit, Hiller, Diaz, Brunner. There is no indication that a player who developed in north america will be a better NHLer than a guy who developped in Switzerland. If he has the talent, he will be in the NHL, otherwise not.

Therefore I also think that it's sad that a player like Andrighetto refuses to play for Geneva so that he can play thirdline minutes in Hamilton, even if there is no guarantee that it will benefit his career. We should wake up and also look for our NLA in our own country. It is still the Swiss junior clubs that give those players the opportunity to play competitive hockey, who teach them how to shoot and skate. But with 16-18 more and more of those players seem to leave for north america. What is the benefit of that? A good player will always be a good player, whether it's in the NHL or in the NLA.

Would you say Weinhandl is a worse player because he wasn't able to grab a NHL spot? Is Josi a worse player because - the WC showed it - he is an even better player on the big ice as on the small ice? A guy like Zetterberg wasn't worlds better as Brunner in Zug. With all respect, of course those players are in the NHL for some reason, but the size of the ice surface has a biiiig influence on the "status" of a player. And yes, I would go as far and say that guys like Josi or Brunner would be way better on the big ice than some of the NHL players who are better than them in the NHL.

Long story short, I find it sad that fans in Switzerland miss out on more and more young Swiss talents because they think they need to present them to the NHL GMs, even if there is no guarantee that it will benefit their careers. Maybe NHL GMs should start being a bit less ignorant. Hockey world is changing fast.