Swedish Prospect Update Thread

Atas2000

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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I never said he did. The fact you automatically go to that doesn't surprise me though, as I have seen your position on the subject in other threads.

He wants Europeans to stay in Europe longer. He wants good NA prospects to move to Europe post-draft (or even pre-draft). There's a clear conflict of interest there. That's my point. Even if a prospects stay only 5 more years like Kaprizov, that's still 5 more years of the league level being better. If the Matthews and McDavid of the world go to Europe pre-draft, that makes the leagues better, even if just for 1-2 years.

As for my position, I don't really care either way as I long as the prospect is in a good program whether it is in NA or Europe.
That would be a very silly way to make leagues better.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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That would be a very silly way to make leagues better.

How so? The product on the ice gets better and those guy just get replaced by the other incoming prospects as they move to the NHL. Constant influx of short term young talent with a few staying several years.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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I never said he did. The fact you automatically go to that doesn't surprise me though, as I have seen your position on the subject in other threads.

He wants Europeans to stay in Europe longer. He wants good NA prospects to move to Europe post-draft (or even pre-draft). There's a clear conflict of interest there. That's my point. Even if a prospects stay only 5 more years like Kaprizov, that's still 5 more years of the league level being better. If the Matthews and McDavid of the world go to Europe pre-draft, that makes the leagues better, even if just for 1-2 years.

As for my position, I don't really care either way as I long as the prospect is in a good program whether it is in NA or Europe.
I will just add that Szemberg is a lifetime fan of the NHL & the Habs, so yes, there's a clear conflict of interest. Even if I do not agree with his "vision of the business for the European club hockey", I need to agree with his stance on the prospects´ moving to North America too early. There is exactly no reason why should any European player to play in the AHL or the Canadian/American juniors. It would be much beneficial for all parties if that player comes to North America and right now play an important role in his NHL team instead of playing years & years in the AHL.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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I will just add that Szemberg is a lifetime fan of the NHL & the Habs, so yes, there's a clear conflict of interest. Even if I do not agree with his "vision of the business for the European club hockey", I need to agree with his stance on the prospects´ moving to North America too early. There is exactly no reason why should any European player to play in the AHL or the Canadian/American juniors. It would be much beneficial for all parties if that player comes to North America and right now play an important role in his NHL team instead of playing years & years in the AHL.

What does that have to do with anything?

EDIT: His current job is to help euro teams. His personal likings are irrelevant compared to his job.
 
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Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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How so? The product on the ice gets better and those guy just get replaced by the other incoming prospects as they move to the NHL. Constant influx of short term young talent with a few staying several years.
The return on the investment into those players' development is marginal if not negative. Making the leagues marginally better through a couple of talented players more is not washing billions into the teams' and leagues' bank accounts.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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The return on the investment into those players' development is marginal if not negative. Making the leagues marginally better through a couple of talented players more is not washing billions into the teams' and leagues' bank accounts.

Why did a euro club sign Matthews then? They very well knew he was there for only 1 year.

Szemberg saying prospects should come/stay in Europe is like the Pepsi CEO saying Pepsi is better than Coca-Cola.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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What does that have to do with anything?

EDIT: His current job is to help euro teams. His personal likings are irrelevant compared to his job.
We should not debate about the personality, but the problem. But you are asking what does that have to do with anything? A lot.

Sometimes is the most effective to put your guy to run your rival company.
 

Treb

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We should not debate about the personality, but the problem. But you are asking what does that have to do with anything? A lot.

Sometimes is the most effective to put your guy to run your rival company.

Szemberg worked as:
Sports reporter (81-97)
GM of a basketball club (98-00)
Director of communications for the IIHF (01-14)
CEO of the Champion Hockey League (14-15)
Managing Director of the Alliance of European Hockey Clubs E.H.C. (16-present)


He has no professional link to the NHL so how is he their guy? He has, however, plenty of links with Euro hockey.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Why did a euro club sign Matthews then? They very well knew he was there for only 1 year.

Szemberg saying prospects should come/stay in Europe is like the Pepsi CEO saying Pepsi is better than Coca-Cola.
Matthews is a reversed case. A NA player who developed in NA and then came for a short time to Europe. There was no investment on the part of the european team(except for the contract in return for his play), while the development of Europeans in Europe unlike in NA where kids and youth development is a separate business is serious commitment and investment by the european team in question ususally. Sure, a couple of years more out of the prospect gives the team a boost, but not nearly enough to compensate for development. As I said, it is not the discussion about Europeans staying in Europe for their careers. That would be appropriate compensation and then Szemberg would indeed resemble a Pepsi manager promoting Pepsi. The reality is unfortunately not there yet.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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Matthews is a reversed case. A NA player who developed in NA and then came for a short time to Europe. There was no investment on the part of the european team(except for the contract in return for his play), while the development of Europeans in Europe unlike in NA where kids and youth development is a separate business is serious commitment and investment by the european team in question ususally. Sure, a couple of years more out of the prospect gives the team a boost, but not nearly enough to compensate for development. As I said, it is not the discussion about Europeans staying in Europe for their careers. That would be appropriate compensation and then Szemberg would indeed resemble a Pepsi manager promoting Pepsi. The reality is unfortunately not there yet.

Szemberg was also advocating NA players playing in Europe.

There's also way more of a return on investment if the Euro player stays until 20-23 than if they leave at 17-19 to play junior in NA. Promoting the Kaprizov route is good for them as they at least get a few more years out of it.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Szemberg was also advocating NA players playing in Europe.

There's also way more of a return on investment if the Euro player stays until 20-23 than if they leave at 17-19 to play junior in NA. Promoting the Kaprizov route is good for them as they at least get a few more years out of it.
Return on investment wise I would prefer adequate money from the NHL. Nothing is for free.

"Few more years" just don't cut it as the players still spend their primes in the NHL. But that was not the point discusse I think. At this point it is about how to not ruin prospects developement in general. Not about how european leagues get a boost out of it.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Szemberg was also advocating NA players playing in Europe.

There's also way more of a return on investment if the Euro player stays until 20-23 than if they leave at 17-19 to play junior in NA. Promoting the Kaprizov route is good for them as they at least get a few more years out of it.
Perhaps I should explain the point.

We know that all European leagues signed the NHL TA. Only the KHL negotiated a separate transfer framework with the NHL. To explain it in details.

If Kaprizov (Sokorin, earlier Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin) played in Sweden, Finland wherever and being under contract with that Swedish etc club, he could still sign in the NHL anytime he wished. He would just need to do the following, 1. wait when the season ends & a special transfer window opens, 2.agree with his NHL club on contract´s details. As seen, he does not need to care about his contract with that Swedish etc club because this deal ceased to exist at the moment he signs in the NHL.

But, Kaprizov was playing in the KHL, being under a KHL contract. And the NHL club has to honour that contract, so the NHL club has to wait until his KHL contract ends. As I get it, Szemberg would like to see this scenario in Sweden. But, if you want this scenario, you need to re-arrange your transfer relationship with the NHL. The real question mark is - are European clubs/leagues making steps for this scenario to happen? And that is what is interesting in these tweets.

On one side, the author is advocating for what he is advocating, but the legal framework is totally different from what the KHL has. And I see no real action to consider the change of the legal framework (Sweden etc), moreover, they do not even talk about the change. Never. That is what should be judged, not the tweets, but real actions.

I do remember a few years ago when Sweden signed the NHL TA, how Swedish hockey officials were happy that the Swedish prospects will stay longer in Sweden. Why do they complain now? They did not know at the time, what will happen?

But I understand them. They promote themself as the best hockey nation in Europe. Their league (Elitserien) used to be the best-attended, the most prominent and perhaps, the most wealthy in Europe a decade or so ago. That is not the case anymore, the KHL and even Swiss are ahead. The best Swedes moving en-mass not only to the NHL/AHL but also to the KHL and even Switzerland. That is hurting the Swedish leagues, a lot. Of course, it would be much beneficial for the SHL if the prospects stayed at home for a longer time. But you need a legal framework and money to pay the players. Swedish hockey has neither.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Return on investment wise I would prefer adequate money from the NHL. Nothing is for free.
Yes, it is a different, but much more important topic.

"Few more years" just don't cut it as the players still spend their primes in the NHL. But that was not the point discusse I think. At this point it is about how to not ruin prospects developement in general. Not about how european leagues get a boost out of it.
Perhaps, it is the only reasoning behind this. Especially, if we see how they promote Frolunda. But, as written above, there are much deeper problems behind all of it. It is about the overall development of European club hockey. It is all connected.
 

ZEBROA

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Dec 21, 2017
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Perhaps I should explain the point.

We know that all European leagues signed the NHL TA. Only the KHL negotiated a separate transfer framework with the NHL. To explain it in details.

If Kaprizov (Sokorin, earlier Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin) played in Sweden, Finland wherever and being under contract with that Swedish etc club, he could still sign in the NHL anytime he wished. He would just need to do the following, 1. wait when the season ends & a special transfer window opens, 2.agree with his NHL club on contract´s details. As seen, he does not need to care about his contract with that Swedish etc club because this deal ceased to exist at the moment he signs in the NHL.

But, Kaprizov was playing in the KHL, being under a KHL contract. And the NHL club has to honour that contract, so the NHL club has to wait until his KHL contract ends. As I get it, Szemberg would like to see this scenario in Sweden. But, if you want this scenario, you need to re-arrange your transfer relationship with the NHL. The real question mark is - are European clubs/leagues making steps for this scenario to happen? And that is what is interesting in these tweets.

On one side, the author is advocating for what he is advocating, but the legal framework is totally different from what the KHL has. And I see no real action to consider the change of the legal framework (Sweden etc), moreover, they do not even talk about the change. Never. That is what should be judged, not the tweets, but real actions.

I do remember a few years ago when Sweden signed the NHL TA, how Swedish hockey officials were happy that the Swedish prospects will stay longer in Sweden. Why do they complain now? They did not know at the time, what will happen?

But I understand them. They promote themself as the best hockey nation in Europe. Their league (Elitserien) used to be the best-attended, the most prominent and perhaps, the most wealthy in Europe a decade or so ago. That is not the case anymore, the KHL and even Swiss are ahead. The best Swedes moving en-mass not only to the NHL/AHL but also to the KHL and even Switzerland. That is hurting the Swedish leagues, a lot. Of course, it would be much beneficial for the SHL if the prospects stayed at home for a longer time. But you need a legal framework and money to pay the players. Swedish hockey has neither.
When did the Swiss league get ahead of SHL? Is that consensus in the hockeyworld?
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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When did the Swiss league get ahead of SHL? Is that consensus in the hockeyworld?
I mean the Swiss´ National League has higher attendance than SHL in recent years. It was not the case around 2008. Also, salaries are higher in NL than SHL (taxes into account). In recent years, more & more Swedish players, good players, are moving to Switzerland instead of playing in SHL. As a result, the Swedish league is losing its talent.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Szemberg about Raymond.





Google Translate
1.Interesting by Rönnberg in GP. When Raymond is allowed to comment, he says: "I've also been thinking about taking it easy, but it feels good - and Detroit is extremely hungry." And: "I've had a great dialogue with Detroit all season." There is a lot here that is ominous. >

2.An old champion club club on dekis, which right now needs Raymond more than vice versa. Also think that the "great dialogue" during the season may be the reason for his performance. Devastating with double command, split focus. Even worse with Henriksson who barely placed>

3.The SHL has unfortunately ended up in a situation where the league has become two springboards. The big one for the NHL and the small board against the KHL and Switzerland. The discussion on how to raise the SHL's status does not exist. Historically, you can see it this way: Every ten years or so, the bar for NHL contracts is lowered>

4.In Salming's time, you had to be the best in Tre Kronor. Then it was enough with Tre Kronor, then a star in the highest Swedish series, then okay in the highest series. Now players who are neither key players, nor even places in the SHL, sign an NHL contract. Devastating in the long run.

5. And everyone just watches.
 

ZEBROA

Registered User
Dec 21, 2017
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A SHL year extra for Raymond would not hurt. If he get first line ice time.
 

OskarOskarius

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Jan 7, 2019
521
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Szemberg about Raymond.





Google Translate

The SHL new TV deal will give more than $100 million/season to the SHL, or $7 million/team. To compare the current salary budget of the top teams is 43 million kr or $ 5 million/season, so SHL teams will be able to compete with KHL and NLA for the Omark kind of players. The SHL is economically speaking growing faster than the KHL and NLA and is already more competitive than the NLA as is evident when you look at CHL performance with SHL teams winning all seasons except 17/18 which was won by JYP. Let's add renovation of Ericsson Globe Arena and plans to build a new hockey arena in Gothenburg and it seems like we are pretty much doing better than anyone else in Europe.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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It is a fact that Swedish players are leaving the SHL as soon as possible. There is a reason for it, especially (net) salaries which are bigger in the NL & the KHL & the NHL. Even though you may disagree.

Just to remind you, top KHL clubs have the salaries payroll budget at the level of $ 20-25 million. Soon the lowest salary payroll (salary floor) will be around $ 7 milion. I can not speak for the National League in Switzerland.

You say about the SHL & its $ 5 million for richest teams - with your taxes, it is not comparable to the KHL and likely to the NL as well.
 
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OskarOskarius

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Jan 7, 2019
521
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It is a fact that Swedish players are leaving the SHL as soon as possible. There is a reason for it, especially (net) salaries which are bigger in the NL & the KHL & the NHL. Even though you may disagree.

Just to remind you, top KHL clubs have the salaries payroll budget at the level of $ 20-25 million. Soon the lowest salary payroll (salary floor) will be around $ 7 milion. I can not speak for the National League in Switzerland.

You say about the SHL & its $ 5 million for richest teams - with your taxes, it is not comparable to the KHL and likely to the NL as well.
Right now it's a fact that KHL and NLA have higher salaries than SHL, however, it is also a fact that the SHL have signed a new media rights deal which will increase media rights income alone with 20 million SEK/season or $2.4 million/season (1). The richest club in SHL have a player salary budget of $5.9 million (2), so with the new media rights deal they should be able to increase their budget to $8.3 million. Meanwhile KHL will be capped at $13 million/season (3).

1 SHL 2019/20
2 Klart: Sänder SHL till 2030
3 https://thehockeywriters.com/khl-reduced-salary-cap-team-impact/

But there is more to come, just as the media rights increases, we can also expect sponsorship deals to increase as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the SHL breaks the $10 million/season in player salaries under the next media rights period (2024-2030). The future is looking bright for the SHL.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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It is fine what you say. But you need to take into account the taxes in Sweden as well because the players care about net salaries. From that point of view, SHL will always lose to KHL & NL. If SHL wants to overcome their European rivals, SHL needs to increase their payroll budget significantly. Even $10 million is not enough.

I will quote @Exarz

I'll keep it short since we're heading a bit off topic, but yes Sweden still has very high taxes, about the same as in Finland. Taxes for these top players are around 50%, then the employee has to pay an additional state payroll tax/non-wage labour costs of roughly 30% on that salary, so it is almost impossible to match the net bargaining power of teams in the KHL or the NLA.

I can not agree with you in regards to the KHL salary cap. You showed your misunderstanding of the KHL rules while saying "meanwhile KHL will be capped at $13 million/season" This ₽900 million ($13 million) is the ceiling for BASIC salaries without bonuses. The club can use another ₽360 million ($5 million) for bonuses, this sum is not counted in cap formula. And believe me, the richest clubs try to pay the maximum. So, you have around $18 million for players´ payrolls. Plus, there are other exemptions from the cap like U21 players salaries & bonuses not counting in cap formula, other bonuses for being the best in your position in league and team´s bonuses for reaching the conference final & championship - this kind of bonus in UNLIMITED. So, easily you are at $20-25 million. Definitelly not $13 million as you said.

The KHL will increase the salary floor, so payroll minimum, to ₽450 million ($6 million) for basic salaries. You need to add bonuses, so at least $1 million. Summary, you have around $7 million for the poorest clubs. So, according to your previous statement, the poorest KHL clubs should be at the similar level of the richest SHL clubs. And, we have to take your taxes into account. I do not see the SHL as a winner.
 

OskarOskarius

Registered User
Jan 7, 2019
521
155
It is fine what you say. But you need to take into account the taxes in Sweden as well because the players care about net salaries. From that point of view, SHL will always lose to KHL & NL. If SHL wants to overcome their European rivals, SHL needs to increase their payroll budget significantly. Even $10 million is not enough.

I will quote @Exarz



I can not agree with you in regards to the KHL salary cap. You showed your misunderstanding of the KHL rules while saying "meanwhile KHL will be capped at $13 million/season" This ₽900 million ($13 million) is the ceiling for BASIC salaries without bonuses. The club can use another ₽360 million ($5 million) for bonuses, this sum is not counted in cap formula. And believe me, the richest clubs try to pay the maximum. So, you have around $18 million for players´ payrolls. Plus, there are other exemptions from the cap like U21 players salaries & bonuses not counting in cap formula, other bonuses for being the best in your position in league and team´s bonuses for reaching the conference final & championship - this kind of bonus in UNLIMITED. So, easily you are at $20-25 million. Definitelly not $13 million as you said.

The KHL will increase the salary floor, so payroll minimum, to ₽450 million ($6 million) for basic salaries. You need to add bonuses, so at least $1 million. Summary, you have around $7 million for the poorest clubs. So, according to your previous statement, the poorest KHL clubs should be at the similar level of the richest SHL clubs. And, we have to take your taxes into account. I do not see the SHL as a winner.
Let's see here:

"The types of income included in the salary cap are as follows:
- Salary;
- Individual bonuses worth more than 20% of the player’s salary;
- Team bonuses worth more than 20% of the combined team wage bill;
- Other material benefits for players and their immediate families, including travel, accommodation, education services etc.
The full list is available in Art.51 of KHL Legal Regulations."

In other words most of the bonuses are part of the salary cap.

Source: The road to the salary cap
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
11,404
1,269
That is great, you used the same source as myself. So, you should understand it.

To sum it up. I will give you an example, player X has basic salary, individual bonus worth less than 20% of his salary & team bonus worth less than 20% of the combined wage bill. So, only basic salary is counted in cap formula (₽900 million=$13 million), if both bonuses are less than 20% of salary/team´s wage bill, then these bonuses are not counted in cap. That is exactly what I wrote in previous post. The richest KHL clubs spend on players more money than ₽900 million=$13 million as you originaly said.
 

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