Swedish Prospect Update Thread

[theslatcher]

Strömgren getting his HA debut tomorrow.

 

[theslatcher]

Eljas SHL debut today. Kind of lost in the shuffle, could see him going late 2021.

 

[ZEBROA]

Is it legit to say Finland is going past us as hockey action right now or is that overreacting? I have thought we are on the same level. Finland better in some ways Sweden in others. No clear "winner". Not sure anymore.

 

[Garl]

Is it legit to say Finland is going past us as hockey action right now or is that overreacting? I have thought we are on the same level. Finland better in some ways Sweden in others. No clear "winner". Not sure anymore.

Overreaction after WJC. Sweden is comforably ahead of Finland

 

[VictorLustig]

Well some changes has to be made in Swedish hockey. A couple of suggestions:

1. Shrink the rinks. Use the hybrid model. Our players cannot keep up right now when the pace goes up on smaller rinks.

2. Make better use of Allsvenskan for player development. Can't have talent stuck on 4th lines in the SHL and expect them to deliver in offensive situations internationally. Implement some kind of exchange model between the leagues for young talent.

3. More emphasize on hockey sense from early ages. Put skill and smarts at center.

 

[B Boarding]

Well some changes has to be made in Swedish hockey. A couple of suggestions:

1. Shrink the rinks. Use the hybrid model. Our players cannot keep up right now when the pace goes up on smaller rinks.

2. Make better use of Allsvenskan for player development. Can't have talent stuck on 4th lines in the SHL and expect them to deliver in offensive situations internationally. Implement some kind of exchange model between the leagues for young talent.

3. More emphasize on hockey sense from early ages. Put skill and smarts at center.

I think these are all sensible suggestions.
I would also point out coaching. Swedish hockey is not doing a good job in developing competent coaches and definitely not in assigning such to the national teams. I don't think I've ever seen Sweden having outcoached any of the top nations at WJC since possibly Roger Rönnberg. It's far too often the other way around. And the senior National team is not much better. Now we have Garpenlöv, whom have never been head coach in his life before getting what is supposed to be the job for the best qualified coach in Sweden. That tells me something is very wrong. Some strong nepotism or similar is going on within the federation.
The lack of quality coaching goes for in game coaching but also in picking a roster. And going deeper than just one coach job, the federation has to look into why the current game plan that Swedish national teams has had since around late 2000's doesn't convert into more gold medals. It seems like the Swedish teams are completely unable to adjust their game during and between games to help themselves win.
Given the amount of quality talent Sweden is producing and that gets drafted by professional scouts every year, compared to all other nations but Canada and USA, I actually think this is the biggest issue with Swedish hockey. With better coaching and tactics, I'm convinced Sweden's national teams would've won more with the talent we have.

 

[OiledUp]

Well some changes has to be made in Swedish hockey. A couple of suggestions:

1. Shrink the rinks. Use the hybrid model. Our players cannot keep up right now when the pace goes up on smaller rinks.

2. Make better use of Allsvenskan for player development. Can't have talent stuck on 4th lines in the SHL and expect them to deliver in offensive situations internationally. Implement some kind of exchange model between the leagues for young talent.

3. More emphasize on hockey sense from early ages. Put skill and smarts at center.

I think these are all sensible suggestions.
I would also point out coaching. Swedish hockey is not doing a good job in developing competent coaches and definitely not in assigning such to the national teams. I don't think I've ever seen Sweden having outcoached any of the top nations at WJC since possibly Roger Rönnberg. It's far too often the other way around. And the senior National team is not much better. Now we have Garpenlöv, whom have never been head coach in his life before getting what is supposed to be the job for the best qualified coach in Sweden. That tells me something is very wrong. Some strong nepotism or similar is going on within the federation.
The lack of quality coaching goes for in game coaching but also in picking a roster. And going deeper than just one coach job, the federation has to look into why the current game plan that Swedish national teams has had since around late 2000's doesn't convert into more gold medals. It seems like the Swedish teams are completely unable to adjust their game during and between games to help themselves win.
Given the amount of quality talent Sweden is producing and that gets drafted by professional scouts every year, compared to all other nations but Canada and USA, I actually think this is the biggest issue with Swedish hockey. With better coaching and tactics, I'm convinced Sweden's national teams would've won more with the talent we have.

Very good points from the both of you. As far as player development there has to be a focus on developing higher skilled centers, too much focus on two way play for centers at the youth level, let them develop that once they hit the pro game, can't just put all the skilled high risk players on the wings.

 

[B Boarding]

Very good points from the both of you. As far as player development there has to be a focus on developing higher skilled centers, too much focus on two way play for centers at the youth level, let them develop that once they hit the pro game, can't just put all the skilled high risk players on the wings.

Yes, this is also a problem. Looking some 5+ years ahead, Tre Kronor will be very weak down the middle. After EP, there are no high end centers developed or in sight. Maybe Noah Östlund could develop into such, otherwise some current prospect need to take an unexpected leap to that status. Hopefully the trend of unexpected Swedish late bloomers continue, otherwise we are in trouble

 

[Garl]

Yes, this is also a problem. Looking some 5+ years ahead, Tre Kronor will be very weak down the middle. After EP, there are no high end centers developed or in sight. Maybe Noah Östlund could develop into such, otherwise some current prospect need to take an unexpected leap to that status. Hopefully the trend of unexpected Swedish late bloomers continue, otherwise we are in trouble

5 years? Zibanejad and W.Karlsson will be 32, Sundqvist 31, Kempe, who can play center will be 29, Ek 28, Lundestrom 26. Then, there are Eklund and Niederbach, and Persson, Ostlund, Stahre, Stenberg etc

I mean, there are problems, but it's not doom and gloom.

 

[Garl]

I think these are all sensible suggestions.
I would also point out coaching. Swedish hockey is not doing a good job in developing competent coaches and definitely not in assigning such to the national teams. I don't think I've ever seen Sweden having outcoached any of the top nations at WJC since possibly Roger Rönnberg. It's far too often the other way around. And the senior National team is not much better. Now we have Garpenlöv, whom have never been head coach in his life before getting what is supposed to be the job for the best qualified coach in Sweden. That tells me something is very wrong. Some strong nepotism or similar is going on within the federation.
The lack of quality coaching goes for in game coaching but also in picking a roster. And going deeper than just one coach job, the federation has to look into why the current game plan that Swedish national teams has had since around late 2000's doesn't convert into more gold medals. It seems like the Swedish teams are completely unable to adjust their game during and between games to help themselves win.
Given the amount of quality talent Sweden is producing and that gets drafted by professional scouts every year, compared to all other nations but Canada and USA, I actually think this is the biggest issue with Swedish hockey. With better coaching and tactics, I'm convinced Sweden's national teams would've won more with the talent we have.

This.

 

[VictorLustig]

5 years? Zibanejad and W.Karlsson will be 32, Sundqvist 31, Kempe, who can play center will be 29, Ek 28, Lundestrom 26. Then, there are Eklund and Niederbach, and Persson, Ostlund, Stahre, Stenberg etc

I mean, there are problems, but it's not doom and gloom.

There was a time when we had centers like Forsberg, Sundin, Zetterberg, Sedin with Bäckström in the pipeline. All coming from the "old wave" of talent. We would be lucky to have 1 center like that in 5 years. The fact that we are discussing guys like Kempe, Eriksson Ek, Lundeström and Sundqvist says a lot about the current situation.

 

[B Boarding]

5 years? Zibanejad and W.Karlsson will be 32, Sundqvist 31, Kempe, who can play center will be 29, Ek 28, Lundestrom 26. Then, there are Eklund and Niederbach, and Persson, Ostlund, Stahre, Stenberg etc

I mean, there are problems, but it's not doom and gloom.

As pointed out already, a lot of those names shouldn't be anywhere close to a best-on-best roster to be on par with the top nations talent wise. In 5+ years Zibenejad and W. Karlsson will likely be at the end of their primes and soon or already on the downswing. And a player like W. Karlsson shouldn't be more than a 4th line center right now on a really competitive roster, if you compare us with Canada, USA, Russia and Finland.
Eklund and Niederbach will be fine players, but I would be surprised if any of them reaches the level of a star center comparable to what the other top nations will put on their top 9. But let's hope I'm wrong.
Of the undrafted players, only Östlund seems to have the potential to be a star centre from what I've seen so far. But a lot of things can happen of course. Players like L. Persson, Noah Dower Nilsson, Almgren etc can take a leap forward and become top center prospects. No, not all doom and gloom, but looking at our current prospect status we will be much weaker at center than the other top nations.

 

[OiledUp]

As pointed out already, a lot of those names shouldn't be anywhere close to a best-on-best roster to be on par with the top nations talent wise. In 5+ years Zibenejad and W. Karlsson will likely be at the end of their primes and soon or already on the downswing. And a player like W. Karlsson shouldn't be more than a 4th line center right now on a really competitive roster, if you compare us with Canada, USA, Russia and Finland.
Eklund and Niederbach will be fine players, but I would be surprised if any of them reaches the level of a star center comparable to what the other top nations will put on their top 9. But let's hope I'm wrong.
Of the undrafted players, only Östlund seems to have the potential to be a star centre from what I've seen so far. But a lot of things can happen of course. Players like L. Persson, Noah Dower Nilsson, Almgren etc can take a leap forward and become top center prospects. No, not all doom and gloom, but looking at our current prospect status we will be much weaker at center than the other top nations.

Yeah it's looking pretty grim both right now and going forward. I do think Niederbach could have a surprising amount of growth in his game left compared to his peers to bring him towards the higher end of the scale but my fear with both him and Eklund is that their SHL teams are pushing them to wing because in the SHL centers are expected to be defensively responsible first and foremost and offensively be support players rather than creators. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Garl]

As pointed out already, a lot of those names shouldn't be anywhere close to a best-on-best roster to be on par with the top nations talent wise. In 5+ years Zibenejad and W. Karlsson will likely be at the end of their primes and soon or already on the downswing. And a player like W. Karlsson shouldn't be more than a 4th line center right now on a really competitive roster, if you compare us with Canada, USA, Russia and Finland.
Eklund and Niederbach will be fine players, but I would be surprised if any of them reaches the level of a star center comparable to what the other top nations will put on their top 9. But let's hope I'm wrong.
Of the undrafted players, only Östlund seems to have the potential to be a star centre from what I've seen so far. But a lot of things can happen of course. Players like L. Persson, Noah Dower Nilsson, Almgren etc can take a leap forward and become top center prospects. No, not all doom and gloom, but looking at our current prospect status we will be much weaker at center than the other top nations.

Emm, and who Russia has? Malkin will be 39, Kuznetsov will be 33 and then who? 38 y.o Shipachyov?
Finland has Barkov and Aho, but is this really that better than Pettersson+Ziba

William Karlsson is a good forward on a top NHL team. If that's bad, your expectations are probably too high.

Now, about shouldn't be anywhere close to be on the competative roster, Sundqvist is a very good 3rd-4th line player, physical, defesively responsible, big, fast and pretty skilled. Kempe is progressing as does Ek.

 

[Garl]

Yeah it's looking pretty grim both right now and going forward. I do think Niederbach could have a surprising amount of growth in his game left compared to his peers to bring him towards the higher end of the scale but my fear with both him and Eklund is that their SHL teams are pushing them to wing because in the SHL centers are expected to be defensively responsible first and foremost and offensively be support players rather than creators. I hope I'm wrong.

Right now our center line looks like Pettersson-Zibanejad-Backstrom-W.Karlsson/Backlund

How in the World is that "grim"?

 

[Garl]

There was a time when we had centers like Forsberg, Sundin, Zetterberg, Sedin with Bäckström in the pipeline. All coming from the "old wave" of talent. We would be lucky to have 1 center like that in 5 years. The fact that we are discussing guys like Kempe, Eriksson Ek, Lundeström and Sundqvist says a lot about the current situation.

Forsberg is 1973
Sundin 1971
Zetterberg and Sedin are 1980
Backstrom is 1987

Right now we have

Backstrom 1987
Ziba 1993
W.Karlsson 1993
Pettersson 1998

Difference between Sundin and Backstrom is 16 years, so we should look all the way up to 2003 to compare, and it's too early to make any kind of judgement on this generation.

You of course can argue that we don't have anyone on Forsberg or Sundin level, but who does? Where is new Selanne for Finland? Who is new Jagr for Czechs? Maybe we see new Ovechkin or new Fedorov on team Russia? Or Canada has new Lemieux and Gretzky?

Now, Sundqvist and Kempe should not be in discussion, yet somehow Pahlsson and Jorgen Jonsson and Niklas Sundstrom were OK? 4th line guy should be someone like Pahlsson or Sundqvist.

 

[OiledUp]

Right now our center line looks like Pettersson-Zibanejad-Backstrom-W.Karlsson/Backlund

How in the World is that "grim"?

That is pretty bad in a best vs best. Mainly because there’s very little beyond the top 3 and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bäckström hit a wall any season now. Really only the top 2 C that can be counted on as star players for the next vig tournament.

 

[Garl]

That is pretty bad in a best vs best. Mainly because there’s very little beyond the top 3 and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bäckström hit a wall any season now. Really only the top 2 C that can be counted on as star players for the next vig tournament.

Yeah, you can say the same about Finland, and Russia is even worse, Malkin is older than Backstrom and Kuznetsov is disqualified. Unless you are a canadian you don't expect to have a choice of 5-6 star centers. Victor listed a number of star centers here from Sundin to Backstrom and they had age difference of whopping 16 years! And even then the best we had at the same time in last 15 years was I guess in 2006 when we had Foppa, Sedin, Zetterberg and Sundin, you could have said that it was "grim" because Sundin was 35, Forsberg 33 and they could "hit a wall" any time.
In 2010 we had Zetterberg, Sedin and Backstrom.
In 2014 same, but Zetterberg and Sedin were 33 and both got injured.
In 2016 we had almost 36 y.o Sedin and Backstrom, Zetterberg was injured again.

Seems like we have a "grim" situation all the time, last time it was decent was in 02 with Sundin, Nylander, Forsberg, Sedin and Zetterberg.

 

[VictorLustig]

Forsberg is 1973
Sundin 1971
Zetterberg and Sedin are 1980
Backstrom is 1987

Right now we have

Backstrom 1987
Ziba 1993
W.Karlsson 1993
Pettersson 1998

Difference between Sundin and Backstrom is 16 years, so we should look all the way up to 2003 to compare, and it's too early to make any kind of judgement on this generation.

You of course can argue that we don't have anyone on Forsberg or Sundin level, but who does? Where is new Selanne for Finland? Who is new Jagr for Czechs? Maybe we see new Ovechkin or new Fedorov on team Russia? Or Canada has new Lemieux and Gretzky?

Now, Sundqvist and Kempe should not be in discussion, yet somehow Pahlsson and Jorgen Jonsson and Niklas Sundstrom were OK? 4th line guy should be someone like Pahlsson or Sundqvist.

We can take Bäckström completely out of the equation to make the age difference just 9 years and my point still stands. The difference in quality between the four you mentioned and the four I mentioned is massive, they were all top-10 forwards in the game for years. There's no comparison to be made.

Finland: Barkov, Rantanen
Russia: Panarin
Canada: McDavid, MacKinnon
USA: Matthews, Eichel
Czech: Pastrnak
Germany: Draisaitl

But we were talking centers right?
Didn't know Kempe and Sundqvist had been nominated for the Selke or been in the discussion for a Conne Smythe trophy. They are simply lower end players.

 

[Garl]

We can take Bäckström completely out of the equation to make the age difference just 9 years and my point still stands. The difference in quality between the four you mentioned and the four I mentioned is massive, they were all top-10 forwards in the game for years. There's no comparison to be made.

Finland: Barkov, Rantanen
Russia: Panarin
Canada: McDavid, MacKinnon
USA: Matthews, Eichel
Czech: Pastrnak
Germany: Draisaitl

But we were talking centers right?
Didn't know Kempe and Sundqvist had been nominated for the Selke or been in the discussion for a Conne Smythe trophy. They are simply low end players.

Yes, Forsberg/Sundin/Sedin/Zetterberg are better than Backstrom/Pettersson/Zibanejad/W.Karlsson for sure. Still, the latter 4 are good center lineup, only Canada and the USA have better. Besides, Forsberg and Sundin were retired when Sedin entered his prime anyway. And in 2006, Sundin and Zetterberg didn't play center, instead it was Sami Pahlsson and J.Jonsson

Barkov and Rantanen are not on Selanne level
Panarin is 30
McDavid is not on Gretzky level
Pastrnak is not even close to Jagr


Kempe and Sundqvist if they had russian passports or finnish passports would have been on team Russia or Finland roster. They are decent NHLers.

 

[VictorLustig]

Yes, Forsberg/Sundin/Sedin/Zetterberg are better than Backstrom/Pettersson/Zibanejad/W.Karlsson for sure. Still, the latter 4 are good center lineup, only Canada and the USA have better. Besides, Forsberg and Sundin were retired when Sedin entered his prime anyway. And in 2006, Sundin and Zetterberg didn't play center, instead it was Sami Pahlsson and J.Jonsson

Barkov and Rantanen are not on Selanne level
Panarin is 30
McDavid is not on Gretzky level
Pastrnak is not even close to Jagr


Kempe and Sundqvist if they had russian passports or finnish passports would have been on team Russia or Finland roster. They are decent NHLers.

Who cares if they are Gretzky or not or who played with who in certain tournaments? The players I mentioned are top-10 forwards in the league now. We have none and we used to have several and there's not much in the pipeline. Those were my points.

It could have been even worse. Pettersson could easily have been put on the wing in the NHL but he was drafted by the right team. His Swedish coaches did their best to turn him into yet another winger.

 

[Garl]

Who cares if they are Gretzky or not or who played with who in certain tournaments? The players I mentioned are top-10 forwards in the league now. We have none and we used to have several and there's not much in the pipeline. Those were my points.

It could have been even worse. Pettersson could easily have been put on the wing in the NHL but he was drafted by the right team. His Swedish coaches did their best to turn him into yet another winger.

Yes, and my point is that it is not "grim" at the moment. Yes, situation with center development in Sweden is alarming. But Swe has good lineup at the moment and this lineup is not exactly old. Hopefully one or two or three of Niederbach/Ostlund/Stenberg/Stahre/Persson/Eklund will become stars.

 

[OiledUp]

Yes, and my point is that it is not "grim" at the moment. Yes, situation with center development in Sweden is alarming. But Swe has good lineup at the moment and this lineup is not exactly old. Hopefully one or two or three of Niederbach/Ostlund/Stenberg/Stahre/Persson/Eklund will become stars.

I agree that grim was hyperbole in the present and Bäckström is still a very good NHL C at this point, hopefully he can maintain that level until 2022 when the next major event takes place. And hopefully Zibenejad can keep being the player he was last season for a couple of years more, not convinced but hope springs eternal. Swedish overall depth is fine, we keep churning out solid NHLers at an impressive rate and will maintain competitive most tournaments but to really challenge the top dogs you need gamebreaking talent and strength at center and I don't quite see it other than Pettersson going forward.
Wouldn't surprise me if Pettersson ends up at wing at the next olympics either.

And beyond the next few years there’s not a lot going on as far as centers go, Russia has similar issues to Sweden at center but Finland has a group that will likely keep them strong there for the next decade. Canada and USA is of course not even a fair comparison at this point.

Center is such a crucial position, every top end forward talent apart from the pure snipers should be tested and tested again at C before sticking them at wing, much easier to convert a center to wing once you hit the pros than the other way around. In youth hockey today it feels like if a player plays with a high level of diffculty and risk or isn't a strong defensive player he's moved to wing which is an issue. Don't know if anyone read the interview with Chris DeSousa on hockeysverige but he talked about how Nazeem Kadri was all skill and very little defense in juniors. Look at him now. Proving that the defensive part can be taught once you hit pro hockey. Hands, playmaking, hockey sense is trickier to learn post 20.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

I wanted to share a statistical update for SHL players drafted in 2018-2020 (so no 2021 prospects or free agent signings). Here are the top dozen skater prospects by points;

Player	Team	NHL rights	GP	G	A	Pts	ATOI
Jonatan Berggren	Skellefteå	Detroit	28	5	23	28	15:47
Jack Drury	Växjö	Carolina	31	9	13	22	17:58
Nils Lundkvist (D)	Luleå	NY Rangers	29	9	10	19	20:23
Moritz Seider (D)	Rögle	Detroit	24	3	14	17	20:36
Linus Öberg	Örebro	San Jose	29	11	3	14	14:17
Joe Veleno	Malmö	Detroit	27	9	5	14	17:00
Nils Höglander	Rögle	Vancouver	23	5	9	14	14:02
Jesper Sellgren (D)	Frölunda	Carolina	32	3	11	14	21:18
Alexander Holtz	Djurgården	New Jersey	20	6	7	13	15:27
Lucas Raymond	Frölunda	Detroit	24	5	8	13	14:27
Filip Hållander	Luleå	Toronto	28	4	8	12	16:09
Pontus Holmberg	Växjö	Toronto	27	5	6	11	16:04

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If I made any mistakes, please let me know.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Overreaction after WJC. Sweden is comforably ahead of Finland

Heiskanen, Laine, Barkov, Kakko, Aho, Rantanen...

They have left Sweden in the dust.