Surprising trophy wins.

[The Panther]

I realize the Plus/Minus award (known under five different names), awarded from 1983 to 2008, isn't exactly the most prestigious or meaningful. Nevertheless, there was some "surprising" winners:
- 1983 Charlie Huddy (tied with Gretzky)
- 1988 Brad McCrimmon
- 1990 Paul Cavallini
- 1991 Marty McSorley (tied with Theo Fleury)
- 1992 Paul Ysebaert
- 2004 Marek Malik (tied with Martin St.Louis)
- 2006 Wade Redden and Michal Rozsival

 

[Michael Farkas]

May I ask who was so deserving of the 2018 Conn Smythe that Ovechkin's 15 goal-performance Conn Smythe is "a joke"...?

Holtby and Kuznetsov both had a better playoff than Ovechkin, for me.

 

[The Panther]

Holtby and Kuznetsov both had a better playoff than Ovechkin, for me.

Maybe so, but that doesn't make Ovechkin's win "a joke", does it? Since the Dead Puck era, two players in total (Ovechkin and Crosby in '09) have scored 15 goals in one playoff. I'm just concerned about the semantics.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Maybe so, but that doesn't make Ovechkin's win "a joke", does it? Since the Dead Puck era, two players in total (Ovechkin and Crosby in '09) have scored 15 goals in one playoff. I'm just concerned about the semantics.

Yeah, and how many players have scored 34 points?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Maybe so, but that doesn't make Ovechkin's win "a joke", does it? Since the Dead Puck era, two players in total (Ovechkin and Crosby in '09) have scored 15 goals in one playoff. I'm just concerned about the semantics.

A "joke"? No, certainly not. Neither was Crosby's in the first instance...though, I'd take Kessel by a nose...

 

[Pominville Knows]

A "joke"? No, certainly not. Neither was Crosby's in the first instance...though, I'd take Kessel by a nose...

As i remember it Kessel was sheltered on the third line.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The term "sheltered" gets thrown around a lot...I mean, were teams willfully letting the guy who led the team in goals and points play against luddite defensemen? And even if that's true...his linemates were legit third liners in Carl Hagelin and Nick Bonino, two guys better known for defense than offense...so it's not like he was lighting it up with a star either.

Sounds like he would have been damned if he did (played with Crosby or Malkin who would have "inflated" his point totals) and damned if he didn't (he was "sheltered" because he wasn't playing with Crosby or Malkin)...

I'm not saying that the entire premise is entirely faulty...or it's impossible to suggest that anyone else could have won it but Kessel...but I don't know what that guy is supposed to do haha

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, and how many players have scored 34 points?

One, Malkin in 09 scored 36.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I didn’t find Ovechkin’s Conn Smythe to necessarily be surprising, but the Conn Smythe trend in the 2010s as a whole kinda was. 7 forwards won the Conn Smythe, but Ryan O’Reilly was the only one who actually led the playoffs in scoring.

The decade as a whole probably did some damage to the prestige of the award, as there were so many instances of the best player being on a losing team.

 

[Hobnobs]

I didn’t find Ovechkin’s Conn Smythe to necessarily be surprising, but the Conn Smythe trend in the 2010s as a whole kinda was. 7 forwards won the Conn Smythe, but Ryan O’Reilly was the only one who actually led the playoffs in scoring.

The decade as a whole probably did some damage to the prestige of the award, as there were so many instances of the best player being on a losing team.

Im just waiting for someone to win it WITHOUT EVEN REACHING THE FINALS

 

[Pominville Knows]

The term "sheltered" gets thrown around a lot...I mean, were teams willfully letting the guy who led the team in goals and points play against luddite defensemen? And even if that's true...his linemates were legit third liners in Carl Hagelin and Nick Bonino, two guys better known for defense than offense...so it's not like he was lighting it up with a star either.

Sounds like he would have been damned if he did (played with Crosby or Malkin who would have "inflated" his point totals) and damned if he didn't (he was "sheltered" because he wasn't playing with Crosby or Malkin)...

I'm not saying that the entire premise is entirely faulty...or it's impossible to suggest that anyone else could have won it but Kessel...but I don't know what that guy is supposed to do haha

The opponent got only a certain amount of elite defensemen to deploy. The Penguins was smart to play the HBK line behind Crosby's and Malkin's lines.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

my last bunch of top three conn smythe predictions in the moment before they announced the award—

last year: o'reilly, pietrangelo, binnington

year before: kuz, holtby, ovechkin

year before that: well after 2016 i knew crosby would win it no matter what, and i can't argue, but i did kind of want them to break type and co-give it to murray/fleury even though i knew that was not remotely a possibility

the one people are discussing: letang, murray, couture, but i admit that in the absence of a real standout crosby was fine and i'm probaby holding him to his own standards rather than objectively comparing him to the field. it did not occur to me that kessel could have been considered. that kind of dark horse lots of goals but not the main guy conn smythe winner in the past played on higher lines than kessel did and did more: claude lemieux was NJ's most heavily used shutdown forward, justin williams played a lot on kopitar's line, nieuwendyk was the second line center. i think more importantly, there was the perception by media and fans that those players made two-way contributions and had all-round intangibles that no one has ever accused phil kessel of possessing. i think it would have been like jeff carter winning in 2012, as the third most important center on his own team.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The opponent got only a certain amount of elite defensemen to deploy. The Penguins was smart to play the HBK line behind Crosby's and Malkin's lines.

I do understand how this stuff works and I don't mean to belabor the point...but maybe someone will (maybe me) will do this for Crosby, but here are the defensemen that Kessel pointed against in the 2016 Stanley Cup Playoffs...

Girardi and Staal
Klein and Staal
Staal
Klein and McDonagh
Klein and Yandle
Klein and Staal
Orpik and Schmidt
Carlson and Schmidt
Carlson and Chorney
Niskanen and Alzner
Niskanen and Chorney
Niskanen and Chorney
Garrison and Coburn
Garrison and Sustr
Hedman and Coburn
Garrison and Stralman
Koekkoek and Coburn
Garrison
Dillon and Polak
Dillon and Polak
Vlasic and Braun
Vlasic and Braun

I see some bleh d-men in there for sure...Chorney, Sustr, Koekkoek aren't NHLers...Dillon and Polak were horrendous in the SCF...but he ended with some points against a lot of good players too...I see a few shutdown pairs up there...

I'm not sure where I'm going with this...it's certainly not to contend that you were suggesting all of his points came against third pairing d-men, I know it's not that...but he made the best of the hand he was dealt, the talent matches the stats, and he deserves some credit...because like I said, it's a catch-22 probably...if he played with Sid, it's like "well, Sid helped him to get that" basically, he's either "sheltered" by Sid or "sheltered" by playing on the third line...meaning, basically, no matter what, you can make the claim that he deserved, um, worse (?)...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I do understand how this stuff works and I don't mean to belabor the point...but maybe someone will (maybe me) will do this for Crosby, but here are the defensemen that Kessel pointed against in the 2016 Stanley Cup Playoffs...

Girardi and Staal
Klein and Staal
Staal
Klein and McDonagh
Klein and Yandle
Klein and Staal
Orpik and Schmidt
Carlson and Schmidt
Carlson and Chorney
Niskanen and Alzner
Niskanen and Chorney
Niskanen and Chorney
Garrison and Coburn
Garrison and Sustr
Hedman and Coburn
Garrison and Stralman
Koekkoek and Coburn
Garrison
Dillon and Polak
Dillon and Polak
Vlasic and Braun
Vlasic and Braun

I see some bleh d-men in there for sure...Chorney, Sustr, Koekkoek aren't NHLers...Dillon and Polak were horrendous in the SCF...but he ended with some points against a lot of good players too...I see a few shutdown pairs up there...

I'm not sure where I'm going with this...it's certainly not to contend that you were suggesting all of his points came against third pairing d-men, I know it's not that...but he made the best of the hand he was dealt, the talent matches the stats, and he deserves some credit...because like I said, it's a catch-22 probably...if he played with Sid, it's like "well, Sid helped him to get that" basically, he's either "sheltered" by Sid or "sheltered" by playing on the third line...meaning, basically, no matter what, you can make the claim that he deserved, um, worse (?)...

i'm not sure most people are actually suggesting that crosby and malkin played against top fours and bonino's line exclusively played against third pairs. i think it's more like with two art ross lines in the lineup, those ES matchups kessel's line is facing are stretched pretty thin, because it's not like vlasic and co. also expending a lot of energy trying to stop crosby and malkin and most likely the majority of their preparation and gameplanning is to stop the lines that aren't bonino's.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Which, again, I do agree with...but I took an irrational exception to the asterisk that is, sheltered...

I have no real end game here.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

agree. how sheltered could he have been? in the playoffs, bonino, kessel, and hagelin were #2, 3, and 4 in ES icetime among forwards on that team.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: lady byng - it was clearly originally intended for high end players who played the game hard but clean. Guys like Frank Nighber and Frank Boucher. By that criteria, Sakic and Lidstrom should have racked them up. But at some point, voters stopped caring about the award entirely, and it seems it just started going to the guy with the lowest PIM per point scored ratio, regardless of how he played.

So yes, I think it did matter that Brian Campbell had fewer PIMs than Lidstrom, unfortunately.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Re: lady byng - it was clearly originally intended for high end players who played the game hard but clean. Guys like Frank Nighber and Frank Boucher. By that criteria, Sakic and Lidstrom should have racked them up. But at some point, voters stopped caring about the award entirely, and it seems it just started going to the guy with the lowest PIM per point scored ratio, regardless of how he played.

So yes, I think it did matter that Brian Campbell had fewer PIMs than Lidstrom, unfortunately.

i actually don't mind it when they use the lady byng for the guy who is not going to get a sniff at any other award but had a big year that should be recognized. i.e., turgeon, mogilny, demitra, hudler, william karlsson, etc.

2012 spezza would have been a nice one. that was a great forgotten season by him.

 

[MadLuke]

Yeah, and how many players have scored 34 points?

What would 34 points be reference too ? Is it a typo for the 32 points that Kuznetsov scored.

Since the lock out:
NHL & WHA Single Season Playoff Leaders and Records for Points | Hockey-Reference.com

The top 14 (4 tie at the 15 spot) look like this, bolded are Kuznetsov and Ovechkin 2018 playoff run:

Evgeni Malkin	36
Evgeny Kuznetsov	32
Sidney Crosby	31
Logan Couture	30
Daniel Briere	30
Jonathan Toews	29
Evgeni Malkin	28
Patrick Kane	28
Eric Staal	28
Alex Ovechkin	27
Sidney Crosby	27
Sidney Crosby	27
Henrik Zetterberg	27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Alex Ovechkin	15
Sidney Crosby	15
Logan Couture	14
Mark Scheifele	14
Joe Pavelski	14
Marian Gaborik	14
Evgeni Malkin	14
Daniel Alfredsson	14
Fernando Pisani	14
Jake Guentzel	13
Tyler Johnson	13
Mike Cammalleri	13
Johan Franzen	13
Henrik Zetterberg	13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ovechkin isn't far away.

Has for the first Conn Smythe of Crosby being a joke, I feel that an impression caused by an unlucky PDO on a small sample size.

The voters impression that he was more central to the penguins 16 wins than any other players was not a joke even if highly debatable (and debatable if it is the good way to look at who should be the MVP)

During the penguins 16 wins, they had 5 good candidate for the Smythe(with last name with the same number of letters strangely)

Crosby: 6G, 11A, 17P, +8, 19:50 minute by game, 54% faceoff win
Kessel: 7G, 8A, 15P, +7, 17:09 minute by game
Malkin: 3G, 10A, 13P, +3, 16:19 minute by game, 42% faceoff win
Letang: 3G, 10A, 13P, +13, 27:56 minute by game
Murray: .943% save percentage, 24 GA in those 15W, only 2 time above 2goal, twice only 3 in 40 shot against effort.

During the playoff offensive zone face off start:
Kessel: 70%
Malkin: 73%
Crosby: 57%
Letang: 52%

Watching those games, Kessel-Malkin line did feel like they had really sheltered minutes/usage, Kessel and Malkin were #4 and #6 in even strength minutes among Penguins forward those playoff that would be strange for MVPs, 4&5 in EV TOI/GP, scored less in the game the Pens won than Crosby and I would imagine hard for voters to prefer one to the other.

Letang was a really good pick until the final, I need to go from memory but I remember him having been a incredible machine those playoff but going down a bit toward the end.

Murray vs Crosby, hard to compare Goaltender vs Players, but there being a rookie versus a superstar veteran that didn't win a Smyth despite having scored 31 points in is previous Cup probably played a role in voters mind yes, still not a joke.

 

[MadLuke]

I do understand how this stuff works and I don't mean to belabor the point...but maybe someone will (maybe me) will do this for Crosby, but here are the defensemen that Kessel pointed against in the 2016 Stanley Cup Playoffs...

Is that even strength points, Kessel was playing on the first PP units and had 11 power play points those playoff (50% of is production), he would have faced great pair of defense on those 11.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I do understand how this stuff works and I don't mean to belabor the point...but maybe someone will (maybe me) will do this for Crosby, but here are the defensemen that Kessel pointed against in the 2016 Stanley Cup Playoffs...

Girardi and Staal
Klein and Staal
Staal
Klein and McDonagh
Klein and Yandle
Klein and Staal
Orpik and Schmidt
Carlson and Schmidt
Carlson and Chorney
Niskanen and Alzner
Niskanen and Chorney
Niskanen and Chorney
Garrison and Coburn
Garrison and Sustr
Hedman and Coburn
Garrison and Stralman
Koekkoek and Coburn
Garrison
Dillon and Polak
Dillon and Polak
Vlasic and Braun
Vlasic and Braun

I see some bleh d-men in there for sure...Chorney, Sustr, Koekkoek aren't NHLers...Dillon and Polak were horrendous in the SCF...but he ended with some points against a lot of good players too...I see a few shutdown pairs up there...

I'm not sure where I'm going with this...it's certainly not to contend that you were suggesting all of his points came against third pairing d-men, I know it's not that...but he made the best of the hand he was dealt, the talent matches the stats, and he deserves some credit...because like I said, it's a catch-22 probably...if he played with Sid, it's like "well, Sid helped him to get that" basically, he's either "sheltered" by Sid or "sheltered" by playing on the third line...meaning, basically, no matter what, you can make the claim that he deserved, um, worse (?)...

You seem to be searching for the Al Langlois line in hockey. Equivalent to the Mendoza line in baseball.

 

[quoipourquoi]

agree. how sheltered could he have been? in the playoffs, bonino, kessel, and hagelin were #2, 3, and 4 in ES icetime among forwards on that team.

Great point.

The HBK line was kind of like the Moen-Pahlsson-Niedermayer line the Ducks had in 2007 - 3rd line in name only. And collectively, the players on their teams whose profiles rose the most from the championship run.

I remember it being discussed how there needed to be a mechanism in place in 2017 to award Fleury and Murray for two great rounds each. 2007 and 2016 similarly could have benefited from Gary Bettman breaking off pieces of the Conn Smythe to give to a specific unit.

 

[MadLuke]

agree. how sheltered could he have been? in the playoffs, bonino, kessel, and hagelin were #2, 3, and 4 in ES icetime among forwards on that team.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

I have #3,#4,#5 for EV ice time, #3,#4,#6 for EV ice time by game on both there and NHL.com

Has for how sheltered:

% Defensive zone start:

Player	Def. Zone start
Matt Cullen	0.62
Tom Kuhnhackl	0.56
Eric Fehr	0.48
Oskar Sundqvist	0.43
Bryan Rust	0.27
Nick Bonino	0.26
Carl Hagelin	0.24
Sidney Crosby	0.19
Patric Hornqvist	0.18
Evgeni Malkin	0.12
Conor Sheary	0.11
Phil Kessel	0.11
Beau Bennett	0.10
Chris Kunitz	0.09

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

% offensive zone start

Player	Def. Zone start	Off. Zone Faceoff %
Evgeni Malkin	0.12	72.99
Phil Kessel	0.11	70.09
Conor Sheary	0.11	68.24
Chris Kunitz	0.09	67.39
Beau Bennett	0.10	66.67
Patric Hornqvist	0.18	58.92
Carl Hagelin	0.24	56.65
Sidney Crosby	0.19	56.51
Nick Bonino	0.26	53.31
Bryan Rust	0.27	51.12
Eric Fehr	0.48	26.87
Oskar Sundqvist	0.43	21.43
Tom Kuhnhackl	0.56	16.13
Matt Cullen	0.62	13.59

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toi%QoC

Column1	Zone start ratio	Toi QOC	CF QOC
ERIC.FEHR	27.3	29.0	50.6
TOM.KUHNHACKL	15.4	29.0	50.7
BRYAN.RUST	51.7	29.1	50.6
CHRIS.KUNITZ	68.4	29.1	50.4
MATT.CULLEN	13.1	29.2	50.7
EVGENI.MALKIN	72.6	29.2	50.5
PHIL.KESSEL	70.0	29.4	50.5
NICK.BONINO	55.6	29.5	50.6
CARL.HAGELIN	58.3	29.5	50.6
PATRIC.HORNQVIST	59.5	29.7	50.8
CONOR.SHEARY	68.1	29.8	50.6
SIDNEY.CROSBY	58.3	29.9	50.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Seem to have received good quality of competition (with so much success), used quite has an pure offensive line/role when they were with Kessel.

 

[JackSlater]

I remember it being discussed how there needed to be a mechanism in place in 2017 to award Fleury and Murray for two great rounds each. 2007 and 2016 similarly could have benefited from Gary Bettman breaking off pieces of the Conn Smythe to give to a specific unit.

Eh if you start breaking it into pieces, you can justify it in so many years. It would probably lead to an increase in problems.

 

[scott clam]

Anyone who remembers watching the 2016 finals knows Crosby won the Smythe for utterly dominating the Shark centres in the faceoff zone.