Super Smash Bros Ultimate (13.0 + Sora)

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
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Oh no I wasn't whining about the controller itself. I was whining about the fact the prissy melee players actually need their controllers "broken" in a certain way. https://compete.kotaku.com/smash-god-drops-out-of-tournament-because-his-controlle-1794769487

They're all a joke. All this looks like is a lame cool kids club rather than an actual competitive scene
This is absolutely f***ing pathetic. How does this dude not feel like an absolute doucher? Dropping out of a tournament because he doesn't think he can win without a broken controller.

I understand that this is an old old game and you're not really going to find many new controllers, but competitive play should remove as many variables as possible, meaning that controllers should be as new/properly functioning as possible, and both players should be using a standard controller with no particular defects or nothing about it that makes it unique, especially if the player knows the intricacies of the controller.
 

Emperoreddy

Show Me What You Got!
Apr 13, 2010
130,398
75,923
New Jersey, Exit 16E
This is absolutely ****ing pathetic. How does this dude not feel like an absolute *****er? Dropping out of a tournament because he doesn't think he can win without a broken controller.

I understand that this is an old old game and you're not really going to find many new controllers, but competitive play should remove as many variables as possible, meaning that controllers should be as new/properly functioning as possible, and both players should be using a standard controller with no particular defects or nothing about it that makes it unique, especially if the player knows the intricacies of the controller.

Because you need a special broken controller to do the broken moves in Melee.

Also a bitch move. If you are the “best” you don’t need glitches to win.
 

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,351
6,664
Because you need a special broken controller to do the broken moves in Melee.

Also a ***** move. If you are the “best” you don’t need glitches to win.
In my opinion the game should be played the way that it was released, broken or not. If a move is "really hard to do", then too damn bad!

Dropping out of a tournament when you're the "best" because you can't use your special controller is just downright b****-mode
 

Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,351
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**** these Internet 'Stan' losers.

Dear Saku, I tweeted, but you still ain't respondin'.
I left my twitter, snapchat, and instagram at the bottom.

I sent two tweets back in autumn, you must nota got 'em
There probly was a problem with my wifi router or somethin.

....


Edit: This moderately funny verse has inspired me to write an entire 21st century parody of Stan. Stay tuned.
 
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Big Z Man 1990

Registered User
Jun 4, 2011
2,565
367
Don't say anything at all
I was disappointed about Waluigi - and Krystal too for that matter, but not enough to do something that extreme.

I also wish the electric mice had realistic fur, I mean if the other non-human mammals have it why not the Chus? I also thought giving Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon realistic scales would have been cool, especially Charizard.
 

Pilky01

Registered User
Jan 30, 2012
9,867
2,319
GTA
I’m starting to worry Nintendo might be catering too much to competitive players.

I stopped playing melee because brawl came out.
 
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SolidSnakeUS

HFBoards Sponsor
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Aug 13, 2009
48,977
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Baldwinsville, NY
With the new article, I don't think he is thinking about the competitive scene at all and is just making a game that fits everyone, basically. I'm so damn happy that Snake is back though, I really am.
 

aleshemsky83

Registered User
Apr 8, 2008
17,801
424
I like brawl a lot but a lot of people feel its a bit too slow. I never felt that way but smash U was much faster and this one looks slightly faster.
 

The Noot

scaldin ur d00dz
Apr 12, 2012
9,841
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Zurich
Urgh, won't even bother responding to some of the sheer idiocy that was spewed over the last 1-2 pages, but I want to clarify a couple things:

This is mostly directed at @Rodgerwilco and @Blitzkrug
The controllers don't need to be "broken". They need to be fixed.
Gamecube controllers suffer from certain technical issues out of production. Stuff that is deemed "acceptable" by QA, but actually shows during high level play that requires accurate inputs, aka more than button mashing or spamming the same noob stomper move over and over.

The most commonly used example for Melee is shield drops. To the people who are not aware of what that is:
As opposed to the "OMG GLITCH ABUSE BURN MELEE AAAAARGH" that immediately popped up in the back of your head, it's an actually intended and properly implemented mechanic of the game. If you are shielding while standing on a platform (probably because there is a pesky Marth right below you, uptilting like a mad man), you can tap your control stick ever so slightly downwards to drop through the platform and immediately throw out an aerial while Marth is still in his uptilt recovery animation.

Now that you know what this is, here's the problem:
If you don't tap the stick down far enough, you will just angle your shield downwards and do essentially nothing. If you tap down a bit too far, you will spot dodge instead and hence leave yourself open for some frames, which can be punished by your opponent and potentially cost you a stock. To give you a general idea of the required accuracy, this is the input map on a software level, each pixel representing a value on the X/Y scale:
CYuBLMiWQAAB_Yz.png

Now, "What is the connection to controllers here?", you may ask. This small sweet spot that allows you to drop through the platform, differs from controller to controller. Because of their "inaccurate" manufactoring, this input can be fairly easy on some controllers, while it's near impossible to do on others.

Now imagine that such issues can arise with 5+ types of inputs and you realize that getting the "perfect" controller by simply buying controllers is nearly impossible. Hence them fixing their controllers themselves.

If you have a "bad" controller, you are losing incredibly powerful options that others still have. Your opponents will pick up on it (since you won't show a successful shield drop the entire game) and start to adapt to it. You will be predictable, which is a devastating disadvantage in competitive Smash Bros and fighting games in general, not only Melee.

That's why high level players fix their controllers.

You calling a top player "pathetic" because they drop out of a tournament as they don't have the proper tools to play on a competitive level with them is akin to you calling a NHL player pathetic because they refuse to play on skates with dull blades. It's just stupid.
But hey, being ignorant and spewing bs that can be debunked with literally 2 minutes of googling is just more convenient. Right, guys?

And @Emperoreddy
Not sure what glitches you are talking about. Wavedashing is the intended fallback for airdodging into the ground of the physics engine used by Melee. L-Cancling is explicitly coded in that way, as stupid as it is as a mechanic. Dash dancing? Just like wavedashing, was discovered during testing and Sakurai et al. were fine with it.
Sooooo what glitches are you talking about?

Guys, I get that it seems dumb to you that some people actually like video games to a degree that they want to get good at them. Play them competitively. Be the best at them.
Doesn't mean that you need to lash out on them just because you got roflstomped by one of them on For Glory last night.
 
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Pilky01

Registered User
Jan 30, 2012
9,867
2,319
GTA
Urgh, won't even bother responding to some of the sheer idiocy that was spewed over the last 1-2 pages, but I want to clarify a couple things:

This is mostly directed at @Rodgerwilco and @Blitzkrug
The controllers don't need to be "broken". They need to be fixed.
Gamecube controllers suffer from certain technical issues out of production. Stuff that is deemed "acceptable" by QA, but actually shows during high level play that requires accurate inputs, aka more than button mashing or spamming the same noob stomper move over and over.

The most commonly used example for Melee is shield drops. To the people who are not aware of what that is:
As opposed to the "OMG GLITCH ABUSE BURN MELEE AAAAARGH" that immediately popped up in the back of your head, it's an actually intended and properly implemented mechanic of the game. If you are shielding while standing on a platform (probably because there is a pesky Marth right below you, uptilting like a mad man), you can tap your control stick ever so slightly downwards to drop through the platform and immediately throw out an aerial while Marth is still in his uptilt recovery animation.

Now that you know what this is, here's the problem:
If you don't tap the stick down far enough, you will just angle your shield downwards and do essentially nothing. If you tap down a bit too far, you will spot dodge instead and hence leave yourself open for some frames, which can be punished by your opponent and potentially cost you a stock. To give you a general idea of the required accuracy, this is the input map on a software level, each pixel representing a value on the X/Y scale:
CYuBLMiWQAAB_Yz.png

Now, "What is the connection to controllers here?", you may ask. This small sweet spot that allows you to drop through the platform, differs from controller to controller. Because of their "inaccurate" manufactoring, this input can be fairly easy on some controllers, while it's near impossible to do on others.

Now imagine that such issues can arise with 5+ types of inputs and you realize that getting the "perfect" controller by simply buying controllers is nearly impossible. Hence them fixing their controllers themselves.

If you have a "bad" controller, you are losing incredibly powerful options that others still have. Your opponents will pick up on it (since you won't show a successful shield drop the entire game) and start to adapt to it. You will be predictable, which is a devastating disadvantage in competitive Smash Bros and fighting games in general, not only Melee.

That's why high level players fix their controllers.

You calling a top player "pathetic" because they drop out of a tournament as they don't have the proper tools to play on a competitive level with them is akin to you calling a NHL player pathetic because they refuse to play on skates with dull blades. It's just stupid.
But hey, being ignorant and spewing bs that can be debunked with literally 2 minutes of googling is just more convenient. Right, guys?

And @Emperoreddy
Not sure what glitches you are talking about. Wavedashing is the intended fallback for airdodging into the ground of the physics engine used by Melee. L-Cancling is explicitly coded in that way, as stupid as it is as a mechanic. Dash dancing? Just like wavedashing, was discovered during testing and Sakurai et al. were fine with it.
Sooooo what glitches are you talking about?

Guys, I get that it seems dumb to you that some people actually like video games to a degree that they want to get good at them. Play them competitively. Be the best at them.
Doesn't mean that you need to lash out on them just because you got roflstomped by one of them on For Glory last night.

:tmi:
 
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Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,351
6,664
Urgh, won't even bother responding to some of the sheer idiocy that was spewed over the last 1-2 pages, but I want to clarify a couple things:

This is mostly directed at @Rodgerwilco and @Blitzkrug
The controllers don't need to be "broken". They need to be fixed.
Gamecube controllers suffer from certain technical issues out of production. Stuff that is deemed "acceptable" by QA, but actually shows during high level play that requires accurate inputs, aka more than button mashing or spamming the same noob stomper move over and over.



You calling a top player "pathetic" because they drop out of a tournament as they don't have the proper tools to play on a competitive level with them is akin to you calling a NHL player pathetic because they refuse to play on skates with dull blades. It's just stupid.
But hey, being ignorant and spewing bs that can be debunked with literally 2 minutes of googling is just more convenient. Right, guys?



Guys, I get that it seems dumb to you that some people actually like video games to a degree that they want to get good at them. Play them competitively. Be the best at them.
Doesn't mean that you need to lash out on them just because you got roflstomped by one of them on For Glory last night.
Oh please, spare me the snarky comments, Never once did I ridicule professional gaming. I highly respect professional gamers. What I don't respect is the fact that they're using intentionally altered equipment when competing at the highest level. Whether you consider it "broken" or "fixed" or whatever.

Everyone should play with the SAME equipment in my opinion, the equipment should be played with as manufactured. If the controllers are broken from production then everyone should play with the same handicap.
It's like you completely dis-regarded the entire second paragraph of my comment.
I understand that this is an old old game and you're not really going to find many new controllers, but competitive play should remove as many variables as possible, meaning that controllers should be as new/properly functioning as possible, and both players should be using a standard controller with no particular defects or nothing about it that makes it unique, especially if the player knows the intricacies of the controller.

The guy should play and lose, not just drop out like a punk because he doesn't think he can win with what he has.

I've taken everything you've said into consideration, and I stand by my statement that forfeiting without even trying is pathetic.
 
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The Noot

scaldin ur d00dz
Apr 12, 2012
9,841
404
Zurich
Oh please, spare me the snarky comments, Never once did I ridicule professional gaming. I highly respect professional gamers. What I don't respect is the fact that they're using intentionally altered equipment when competing at the highest level. Whether you consider it "broken" or "fixed" or whatever.

Everyone should play with the SAME equipment in my opinion, the equipment should be played with as manufactured. If the controllers are broken from production then everyone should play with the same handicap.
It's like you completely dis-regarded the entire second paragraph of my comment.


The guy should play and lose, not just drop out like a punk because he doesn't think he can win with what he has.

I've taken everything you've said into consideration, and I stand by my statement that forfeiting without even trying is pathetic.
Sorry for the snarky remarks, but at some point the wavecheating and fun-canceling whiners get to me.

Regarding your post, that's the problem with Gamecube controllers, though. It's nearly impossible for everyone to have the same equipment due to manufactoring issues.
2 players could walk into a store, buy a brand new, unmodified Gamecube controller, and will then realize that the two controllers they bought at the same store, at the same time, behave differently.

It should be noted that controllers of the same generation tend to have similar issues, but every controller is still unique with its oddities.

That's why there currently is a project called UCF (Universal Controller Fix) going on to fix those controller issues on a software level. How exactly it works I'm not sure, but it's essentially a modified save file, so the game itself won't get touched by it. And you'd never guess who's completely on board with it as everyone should have an even playing field and being forced to buy 10+ controllers just to find an acceptable one is beyond stupid:



Would you look at that, Mr. Pathetic is absolutely stoked that everyone has the same conditions, no matter what their controller is.
While I do agree that not participating because you don't have a proper controller might seem absolutely ridiculous from an outside perspective, it absolutely makes participation basically pointless, as the advantage a good controller provides at the top level of play is absolutely massive.

Why are we talking about Melee in this thread? Does anyone in this thread still actually play it?
I would love to move on, but I won't let people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about spread falsehoods about the game.
Aside from that, the competitive scene for Melee is still about as big as the Smash 4 scene is. EVO participation numbers imply that it's even bigger than Smash 4


The casual base obviously is way smaller than Smash 4's
 
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Rodgerwilco

Entertainment boards w/ some Hockey mixed in.
Feb 6, 2014
7,351
6,664
Sorry for the snarky remarks, but at some point the wavecheating and fun-canceling whiners get to me.

Regarding your post, that's the problem with Gamecube controllers, though. It's nearly impossible for everyone to have the same equipment due to manufactoring issues.
2 players could walk into a store, buy a brand new, unmodified Gamecube controller, and will then realize that the two controllers they bought at the same store, at the same time, behave differently.

It should be noted that controllers of the same generation tend to have similar issues, but every controller is still unique with its oddities.

That's why there currently is a project called UCF (Universal Controller Fix) going on to fix those controller issues on a software level. How exactly it works I'm not sure, but it's essentially a modified save file, so the game itself won't get touched by it. And you'd never guess who's completely on board with it as everyone should have an even playing field and being forced to buy 10+ controllers just to find an acceptable one is beyond stupid:



Would you look at that, Mr. Pathetic is absolutely stoked that everyone has the same conditions, no matter what their controller is.
While I do agree that not participating because you don't have a proper controller might seem absolutely ridiculous from an outside perspective, it absolutely makes participation basically pointless, as the advantage a good controller provides at the top level of play is absolutely massive.

No worry about the comment, I understand.

I understand the issue that arises with the controllers, I just disagree with how they go about working around it.

An impartial 3rd party (officials of the tournament) could always be used to make sure that controllers are operating in the same fashion with the same intricacies.

I'm sure he would be stoked that everyone has the same conditions, in my opinion, everyone should have had the same conditions from the start, and that was my gripe with it.

Even with the massive advantage, I would prefer him to just play and lose rather than backing out. Anyone who knows about Smash will understand why he lost. Is he trying to protect his competitive record or something?
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Apr 12, 2010
72,379
31,298
Calgary
I've never really found competitive Melee to be all that interesting, then again I think Tekken is even less interesting.

Smash 4 will be dead as soon as Ultimate hits. Melee might follow suit as well. It feels like to me sometimes that Melee competitive players are never satisfied unless everything is exactly the way they want it. I dunno, just an idle observation. Melee was fun back in 2001, but it's time to move on.
 

The Noot

scaldin ur d00dz
Apr 12, 2012
9,841
404
Zurich
No worry about the comment, I understand.

I understand the issue that arises with the controllers, I just disagree with how they go about working around it.

An impartial 3rd party (officials of the tournament) could always be used to make sure that controllers are operating in the same fashion with the same intricacies.

I'm sure he would be stoked that everyone has the same conditions, in my opinion, everyone should have had the same conditions from the start, and that was my gripe with it.

Even with the massive advantage, I would prefer him to just play and lose rather than backing out. Anyone who knows about Smash will understand why he lost. Is he trying to protect his competitive record or something?

Believe me when I tell you that controllers have been a controversial issue in the Melee community for years now. Some players modifying their controllers to gain an advantage has caused multiple outrages. Just as some people selling modified (but still legal) controllers did.
Hell, some people even developed Melee fighting sticks because pro players started to get into health issues with their hands because of the unergonomic shape of the Gamecube controllers combined with the high APM of Melee.

And honestly, the bolded part is a very fair point. People would have known.
But knowing the Melee community (and gaming communities in general), many people would still hold his bad placing against him. Not that it would be a big deal, he's widely considered to be the best player of all time, but I can see why he wouldn't want to deal with it.

I've never really found competitive Melee to be all that interesting, then again I think Tekken is even less interesting.

Smash 4 will be dead as soon as Ultimate hits. Melee might follow suit as well. It feels like to me sometimes that Melee competitive players are never satisfied unless everything is exactly the way they want it. I dunno, just an idle observation. Melee was fun back in 2001, but it's time to move on.
I will be the first to admit that we are incredibly spoiled brats at times.
But the top players and the community both are definitely more open to Ultimate than they were to Sm4sh. The general sentiment is that wavedashing isn't really necessary and that Ultimate is a massive step in the right direction with its faster and more offensive mechanics (worse shield, small jump squat, short hops, longer hit stun, etc.). There are still some quirks that are universally disliked in the Melee community (mostly the knockback physics), but otherwise we are just as hyped as you are.
 

Blitzkrug

Registered User
Sep 17, 2013
25,785
7,633
Winnipeg
Might have to snag a Ness/Mewtwo amiibo if i can.

I'm not gaga over them but i have a small set of my favorite Nintendo characters; all 5 of the original Zelda ones (link/zelda/toon link/ganondorf/shiek) and the Mario ones (DK/Mario/Luigi/Peach/Yoshi/Bowser)

Ness is probably my favorite RPG protag ever and Mewtwo is easily one of my favorite pokemon since it's one of the few with a legitimate backstory behind it via the anime/games.
 

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