Confirmed with Link: Sully extended through 22-23 season

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Scotty Bowman would be an average coach in the salary cap era.

I don't think you understand what average means.

By your measure, Sullivan, one of just 3 coaches with multiple SC wins during the salary cap era, is a terrible coach.

Oh, and the other 2 coaches with multiple SC wins (Quennvile and Sutter) have both missed the playoffs. More than once.

Take a hint from my man Samuel. Great advise.

 
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Mario_is_BACK!!

ACK! ACK ACK! ACK!!!
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I don't think you understand what average means.

By your measure, Sullivan, one of just 3 coaches with multiple SC wins during the salary cap era, is a terrible coach.

Oh, and the other 2 coaches with multiple SC wins (Quennvile and Sutter) have both missed the playoffs. More than once.

Take a hint from my man Samuel. Great advise.



How did Bowman do when he wasn't coaching teams with multiple hall of famers when the team didn't spend as much as they could? He'd be Dan Bylsma.
 

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"You're a boring old man"
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Like who?

Our own Paul Coffey is a big one.

Bowman hated Coffey....because PC couldn't/didn't give a shit about playing defense.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nhl/longterm/1997/playoffs/flyers28.htm

Recchi was another Pens player who got the Bowman boot.

Hell, the Penguins (really just Lemieux) should have a few more Cups in the 90's had they not revolted so hard against Bowman. They didn't like that he wasn't a players coach, preached defense first, and even by the early 90's was already one of the all time greats. He'd win a few more titles in Detroit while Pitt never sniffed a Cup again after 93 until some Sidney Crosby kid came along.

There's more dating back to his time as a GM in Buffalo and coach in Montreal but I'll have to dig that up from the ATD section if you'd like.
 

tom_servo

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Our own Paul Coffey is a big one.

Bowman hated Coffey....because PC couldn't/didn't give a **** about playing defense.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nhl/longterm/1997/playoffs/flyers28.htm

Recchi was another Pens player who got the Bowman boot.

Hell, the Penguins (really just Lemieux) should have a few more Cups in the 90's had they not revolted so hard against Bowman. They didn't like that he wasn't a players coach, preached defense first, and even by the early 90's was already one of the all time greats. He'd win a few more titles in Detroit while Pitt never sniffed a Cup again after 93 until some Sidney Crosby kid came along.

There's more dating back to his time as a GM in Buffalo and coach in Montreal but I'll have to dig that up from the ATD section if you'd like.

Unless Bowman could've corrected Lemieux's health issues and found reliable defense/goaltending and infused some tens of millions into the franchise then there's no way they would've won anything more. '93 was their only other chance. I see nothing from '94-onward.
 

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"You're a boring old man"
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Unless Bowman could've corrected Lemieux's health issues and found reliable defense/goaltending and infused some tens of millions into the franchise then there's no way they would've won anything more. '93 was their only other chance. I see nothing from '94-onward.

You do realize in 95 you still had Jagr, Francis, Murphy, Luc Robataille, Straka, Ulf, Barrasso, etc. Mario played plenty of hockey between 95 and 2001 and the team still managed to win their division in 96, make the playoffs in 97, win their division in 98, etc, etc. People act like the mid to late 90's Pens teams were trash. They weren't.

They absolutely had the forwards to do it, and while the D was pretty suspect post 95, Bowman is exactly the type of coach who could have maximized the players defensively had they bought into his ways. There is no better coach in the history of hockey when it comes to defensive, counter attacking hockey.

I think Mario running Bowman out of Pittsburgh was one of the great mistakes in franchise history. Bowman was actually offered a contract (details were never made public) but Scotty said no, in large part because he knew he couldn't coach Mario and company. They didn't want him there so he bailed.

Scotty Bowman took an expansion team in the St Louis Blues to the SCF's in his first year coaching ever. I don't think I need to say anymore about his abilities to maximize low hanging fruit.
 
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"You're a boring old man"
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I think you massively overrate Bowman when he’s proven he can’t win when he’s not handed an endless parade of hall of famers. Kind of like Mike Babcock.


Bowman is considered by most hockey historians and knowledgeable hockey folk as the greatest coach of all time but I'm wasting my breath with you.

I'd suggest venturing over to the History of Hockey sub forum. Maybe join our annual All Time Draft which has been going on for more than a decade.

You might learn something.
 

Mario_is_BACK!!

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Bowman is considered by most hockey historians and knowledgeable hockey folk as the greatest coach of all time but I'm wasting my breath with you.

I'd suggest venturing over to the History of Hockey sub forum. Maybe join our annual All Time Draft which has been going on for more than a decade.

You might learn something.

Yes, I'd learn that people who coached rosters full of Hall of Famers in an uncapped league had a much easier time winning the Cup than those who didn't.
 

tom_servo

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You do realize in 95 you still had Jagr, Francis, Murphy, Luc Robataille, Straka, Ulf, Barrasso, etc. Mario played plenty of hockey between 95 and 2001 and the team still managed to win their division in 96, make the playoffs in 97, win their division in 98, etc, etc. People act like the mid to late 90's Pens teams were trash. They weren't.

Trash? No. They should've made the Finals in '96. But their D, goaltending, and young talent was trash for most of those years.

Hanging with the '94 Rangers, Brodeur Devil's, Roy Avalanche (teams who not only spent well but drafted well)? Also no. I can't see a scenario where they win another Cup except for '93.

They absolutely had the forwards to do it, and while the D was pretty suspect post 95, Bowman is exactly the type of coach who could have maximized the players defensively had they bought into his ways. There is no better coach in the history of hockey when it comes to defensive, counter attacking hockey.

Speculation, but sure. However his President's Trophy team did lose to the injured Islanders in '93. Not exactly a maximization by any stretch.

Bowman took an expansion team in the St Louis Blues to the SCF's in his first year coaching ever. I don't think I need to say anymore about his abilities to maximize low hanging fruit.

You may not realize that the expansion teams essentially had their own conference. One of them had to make the Finals. The Blues didn't win a single game in either one.
 
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billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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Unless Bowman could've corrected Lemieux's health issues and found reliable defense/goaltending and infused some tens of millions into the franchise then there's no way they would've won anything more. '93 was their only other chance. I see nothing from '94-onward.

Could argue a more detail-oriented coach has the Pens advancing past Florida in 96. Avs were a slightly worse offensive team and a much better defensive team, but in a 7 game series, the overall better hockey club doesn't always win. I would have the Penguins as an underdog, but that doesn't mean in an alternate reality in which a Bowman or a Toe Blake is coaching Pittsburgh, that a championship was impossible that year.

95 might be a year worth looking at. No Mario, but even without him, the Pens may have been the strongest team in the Wales(?) on paper that year. Team just didn't have chemistry. Not sure why, but it's possible a different coach changes that.
 
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tom_servo

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Could argue a more detail-oriented coach has the Pens advancing past Florida in 96. Avs were a slightly worse offensive team and a much better defensive team, but in a 7 game series, the overall better hockey club doesn't always win. I would have the Penguins as an underdog, but that doesn't mean in an alternate reality in which a Bowman or a Toe Blake is coaching Pittsburgh, that a championship was impossible that year.

Perhaps, but even Eddie Johnston should've beaten that team. Barrasso choked in game 7 (suddenly a new habit) against Florida. The offense got shut down like against Boston in '13. It was embarrassing.

95 might be a year worth looking at. No Mario, but even without him, the Pens may have been the strongest team in the Wales(?) on paper that year. Team just didn't have chemistry. Not sure why, but it's possible a different coach changes that.

I don't know dude. The Devils won in 5 and it wasn't that close. Then you have to beat the Red Wings. I hadn't even mentioned the '95-'98 Red Wings. They were a clear tier above.

The Penguins needed more than a details oriented coach. They needed details oriented players. Aside from anyone who was on PP1, they lacked it. Couldn't draft em, couldn't sign em.
 
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billybudd

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I don't know dude. The Devils won in 5 and it wasn't that close. Then you have to beat the Red Wings. I hadn't even mentioned the '95-'98 Red Wings. They were a clear tier above.

Yeah, I'm not saying the series was close, I'm saying the team played like a bunch of strangers all (well, half) season. I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I think the possibility that it gels better with somebody else behind the bench should be considered, though not necessarily agreed with.
 
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tom_servo

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Yeah, I'm not saying the series was close, I'm saying the team played like a bunch of strangers all (well, half) season. I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I don't think the possibility that it gels better with somebody else behind the bench can be discounted.

You never know how it'll turn out. Which is the reason I've been an optimistic fan from then till now. But '93 and '96 were the only results that surprised me.

For '95 specifically, it was Jagr's first season as The Man. And he was the only reason they didn't get eliminated in round one. Ken Wregget also gets a head nod.

They didn't have the depth, and didn't have the hunger. And no coach could've anticipated the effectiveness of Lemaire's system.
 

Victor Z

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You may not realize that the expansion teams essentially had their own conference. One of them had to make the Finals. The Blues didn't win a single game in either one.

The expansion Blues made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in each of their first 3 years of existence (as you noted, SOMEBODY from the un-original 6 division had to make it there every year until they realigned), and the Blues went a combined 0-12 in the finals. The Penguins came a series away from getting there in '70 but lost to the Blues in the divisional finals and a few days later Michel Briere was all but killed.

The most iconic goal in NHL history, Bobby Orr flying through the air horizontally after scoring for the Bruins against the Blues in overtime to end the series in 1970..... people who don't know better probably think that was game 7 of a really tight series thanks to all the hype -- along with that famous and perfectly timed photograph.

But it was just game 4 and the series outcome was in zero doubt even before that game. Oh the drama.
 
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tom_servo

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The expansion Blues made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in each of their first 3 years of existence (as you noted, SOMEBODY from the un-original 6 division had to make it there every year until they realigned), and the Blues went a combined 0-12 in the finals. The Penguins came a series away from getting there in '70 but lost to the Blues in the divisional finals and a few days later Michel Briere was all but killed.

The most iconic goal in NHL history, Bobby Orr flying through the air horizontally after scoring for the Bruins against the Blues in overtime to end the series in 1970..... people who don't know better probably think that was game 7 of a really tight series thanks to all the hype -- along with that famous and perfectly timed photograph.

But it was just game 4 and the series outcome was in zero doubt even before that game. Oh the drama.

Agreed. Always claimed the Orr moment, if not the photo, was hugely overrated.

And appreciate the correction re: Finals appearances. For some reason only had two in my head.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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The expansion Blues made it to the Stanley Cup Finals in each of their first 3 years of existence (as you noted, SOMEBODY from the un-original 6 division had to make it there every year until they realigned), and the Blues went a combined 0-12 in the finals. The Penguins came a series away from getting there in '70 but lost to the Blues in the divisional finals and a few days later Michel Briere was all but killed.

The most iconic goal in NHL history, Bobby Orr flying through the air horizontally after scoring for the Bruins against the Blues in overtime to end the series in 1970..... people who don't know better probably think that was game 7 of a really tight series thanks to all the hype -- along with that famous and perfectly timed photograph.

But it was just game 4 and the series outcome was in zero doubt even before that game. Oh the drama.

Yeah, the Blues were never going to beat someone like the Habs of that era but it is still impressive for a coach with zero HC experience to come in and make it there 3 years running.

As for the Orr goal. Again, zero doubt as to who was winning but some might not realize that Boston hadn't won a Cup since 1941 so it was a big deal as far as their franchise and American hockey markets were concerned.

The 60's and 70's saw Montreal and Toronto dominate the league. The 50's was between Detroit and Montreal.

Really the 06 era boils down to the almost always dominant Habs, and to a slightly lesser extent the Leafs. Detroit was really the only American team to have much success in the 06 era. Boston was actually a doormat for most of the 06 era. NY wasn't much better.
 

tom_servo

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Ok. He still made the Cup finals three years in a row without a group of superstars.

Well he had the same team three years in a row, so... That's nice.

He might indeed be the best coach in history, but it just goes to show how limited influence even the best coach can have. They were embarrassed in '93. The Penguins were not a coach away from another Cup in the '90s IMO.
 

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