Sudbury Wolves 2018 Offseason Thread

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hockeynorth

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Aug 31, 2017
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Could Caleb Everett from the Spirit be a player to target, or at least a fit, seems to me that he fills the role we need.

Candella - Everett
Ross - Stratis
Malik - Thompson
Serentis - Aucoin

That D corps looks a lot better to me with Everett in there, ideally we still replace Candella but I like that makeup.

Would you move levin for Everett + or is Levin not a player many feel comfortable moving. I think I'd want to move him, but if he comes on this season it could be a big loss.
 

Petes

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Could Caleb Everett from the Spirit be a player to target, or at least a fit, seems to me that he fills the role we need.

Candella - Everett
Ross - Stratis
Malik - Thompson
Serentis - Aucoin

That D corps looks a lot better to me with Everett in there, ideally we still replace Candella but I like that makeup.

Would you move levin for Everett + or is Levin not a player many feel comfortable moving. I think I'd want to move him, but if he comes on this season it could be a big loss.

Does he fit Sudbury? Sure.

Does he also fit Saginaw with no reason to go anywhere else? Yes.

Takes two to make a deal.
 
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hockeynorth

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Does he fit Sudbury? Sure.

Does he also fit Saginaw with no reason to go anywhere else? Yes.

Takes two to make a deal.
My thinking was that if Bode Wilde Wilde showed up he could potentially end up on the third pairing, which would be a waste of an asset IMO. Some fans had also said they could use another good offensive contributor (why I brought up Levin specifically - chance of a breakout) so I thought there could be a deal there with Levin potentially on the outs (IMO his attitude may nt be the best with this team). I only got the idea by reading the Spirit forum and seeing some mock lineups that had Everett on the 3rd pair. They could use him on the 3rd pair or they could move him and get an offensive winger. So I brought up the idea of a move surrounding Levin for Everett. I probably should have given reasoning when I brought up the deal, that was my bad, but I'm the type of person that would rather max out assets so I thought a deal could be there. Next time I'll give some reasoning right away, but this was mine.

One other thing, what are we going to do with Lipanov if Luokkonen reports and Tampa doesn't want to hang not him in the AHL, as some lightning fans have speculated? Move him and recoup picks that we should have gotten for Sokolov, or keep him and move Malik and run C depth of Lipanov, Murray, Byfield.
 

I Loveallsports

I'm a optimist not a optometrist
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My thinking was that if Bode Wilde Wilde showed up he could potentially end up on the third pairing, which would be a waste of an asset IMO. Some fans had also said they could use another good offensive contributor (why I brought up Levin specifically - chance of a breakout) so I thought there could be a deal there with Levin potentially on the outs (IMO his attitude may nt be the best with this team). I only got the idea by reading the Spirit forum and seeing some mock lineups that had Everett on the 3rd pair. They could use him on the 3rd pair or they could move him and get an offensive winger. So I brought up the idea of a move surrounding Levin for Everett. I probably should have given reasoning when I brought up the deal, that was my bad, but I'm the type of person that would rather max out assets so I thought a deal could be there. Next time I'll give some reasoning right away, but this was mine.

One other thing, what are we going to do with Lipanov if Luokkonen reports and Tampa doesn't want to hang not him in the AHL, as some lightning fans have speculated? Move him and recoup picks that we should have gotten for Sokolov, or keep him and move Malik and run C depth of Lipanov, Murray, Byfield.

They won't move Malik
 

Sinbad

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Jun 22, 2018
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I think he could fit at the 6 to 8 spot at present, he is 6'7", more of a stay at home Defenceman, has some offense. He has knock on him regarding his skating and not using his size to advantage, like being more physical. I'm hoping he has good off season and comes into camp strong.
Not trying to be confrontational just curious, how often have you seen him play? Especially this past season in Rayside?
 

staubitz

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Apr 30, 2015
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Anyone here have any info on the Jordan Smith to SSM rumours? Will the Wolves release him from his contract, or will he need to resign? Not sure on the logistics/impact of one avenue vs the other.
 

jrwhopper

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May 28, 2015
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According to a source with knowledge of the situation, former Soo Greyhounds defenceman Jordan Smith is coming home.

Jordan Smith to join Greyhounds

To me it sounds like theres still alot of instability in the organization. Three years, three different assistant coaches, especially one (under contract) who jumps ship for the exact same job (with our rival to boot). It's got to be a very hard sell to bring in established talent and coaching personnel. Any guesses who they bring in?
 

cub

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Apr 11, 2012
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To me it sounds like theres still alot of instability in the organization. Three years, three different assistant coaches, especially one (under contract) who jumps ship for the exact same job (with our rival to boot). It's got to be a very hard sell to bring in established talent and coaching personnel. Any guesses who they bring in?

I totally agree with comment, its not good for organization. What I expected from Jordan Smith and what I saw last season, did not match up what he was to bring to the table. Last season our defence was a big problem and I thought Smith could help this group, but didn't see much. To be fair to Smith,they're was alot of injuries on the back end etc. I did like how he wasn't afraid to use Ross in his rookie season. If someone is to replace Smith, I would like a coach that can develop them well, and constantly commutting with them on the bench, after mistakes, good plays etc.

This reminds me a little like when we had Dave Bell was defence coach who I really like and left to Niagara, but in his case Wolves organization didn't want to renew his contract I believe at the time and left.
 

HockeyHell

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Jul 11, 2017
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I totally agree with comment, its not good for organization. What I expected from Jordan Smith and what I saw last season, did not match up what he was to bring to the table. Last season our defence was a big problem and I thought Smith could help this group, but didn't see much. To be fair to Smith,they're was alot of injuries on the back end etc. I did like how he wasn't afraid to use Ross in his rookie season. If someone is to replace Smith, I would like a coach that can develop them well, and constantly commutting with them on the bench, after mistakes, good plays etc.

This reminds me a little like when we had Dave Bell was defence coach who I really like and left to Niagara, but in his case Wolves organization didn't want to renew his contract I believe at the time and left.
I agree that the revolving door of defensive coaches does not make the organization look very good. I do not however blame Smith for the performance of the d. The group as a whole was too young and I do not believe that a couple of them were even OHL ready. I hope for this season they can get a committed coach for the team and as well trade out players for a better back end.
 
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Generalsupdates

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Sep 4, 2017
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Riley Stillman possible OA? I'm sure Papineau will look into it.

He signed his entry level contract with Florida. He won't be in the OHL again. Already slated to play for the Springfield Thunderbirds (AHL) next season
 
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SeaOfBlue

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If SSM would offer Howdeshell and Jacklin + picks for the Pilon twins and Levin, how many picks would they realistically have to add?
 

hockeynorth

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If SSM would offer Howdeshell and Jacklin + picks for the Pilon twins and Levin, how many picks would they realistically have to add?
For the Pilons and Levin? I'd say Howdeshell covers one Pilon skill wise probably, but doesn't bring the rest of what they do which is their heart and sandpaper, but with Jacklin it isn't terrible value. Probably Howdeshell + Jacklin + 3rd 2019 + conditional pick (2-4th rounder dependent on scoring and how the soo does) but then you have to cover the loss of Levin, which would probably be 2 seconds + 3rd + 4th (using Nizhnikov deal as comparable value since Niz and him are so similar impact wise, with Levin having more room to breakout next year so 5th becomes 4th.) + conditional pick (Levin could very well still top ppg and I think he will so a 2nd if he puts up say 85+ points and a 3rd or 4th for PPG plus in 60 games)

So deal would be :

Pilons + Levin for Howdeshell + Jacklin + two 2nds + two 3rds + 4th + conditional + conditional

The reason Howdeshell and Jacklin can't cover the Pilons cost is strictly because they are the types of players that aren't really worth dealing unless you get a good overpayment strictly because of what they do for the team. Their role in Blake Murray's development has been under appreciated as he really came on once they were with him more. They also are two of our very few energy guys, and they are two of the few players that had casual fans coming to the arena which is also an understated piece when talking about deals. Finally I can't tel you how many times I heard young fans talking excitedly about the Pilons, as role models and such.

In regards to Levin you may disagree on the Nizhnikov comparable but I think it is the best comparable out there.

I would be willing to look at a deal or deals around this though:

Levin for 2nd + Joe Carroll/Cole MacKay* + LeGuerrier + 3rd + Conditional (4th for PPG)
Pilons for Howdeshell + 2nd + Conditional (3rd depending on season success)
The star is because I would prefer MacKay but I think Carroll is more reasonable but we could knock the conditional off for MacKay IMO.
However both deals for me would hinge on moving Candella for another D. If we could move Candella then I would be all over LeGuerrier who I think could fit the role we need on D right now.

Players I'd reasonably want off the Soo in order:

*a returning Hollowell - I'd trade both Pilons + 5th if we could move candella for Hollowell and
MacKay
LeGuerrier
Roth (not sure if the fit is there)
Joe Carroll
Jacklin
DeMeo
Howdeshell

Then again I could be TOTALLY OFF value wise:dunno: but these are my valuations as a wolves fan. And you've seen some of my trade valuations on leafs threads in the past.
 

SeaOfBlue

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Based on the first deal, would it work if it was Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nds + a 3rd + a pair of conditional picks.

Conditional pick 1: A guaranteed 3rd which is upgraded to a 2nd if Levin returns for an OA season.
Conditional pick 2: A guaranteed 6th which becomes a 4th if Levin returns for an OA season.

I typically do not see many deals involving players doing well. I mostly just see either the team gets to a certain distance in the playoffs or a guy returns for his OA season.

To summarize
If Levin does not return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nd's + 2 3rd's + a 6th for Levin + the twins.
If Levin does return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 3 2nd's + a 3rd + a 4th for Levin + the twins.

If that is not enough, and adding a defenseman like Wale/Caron does not tip the scales enough, then the second deal if it was Jacklin + Wale/Caron + a 2nd + 3rd + conditional 3rd based on returning for an OA year (either converts or does not). I'd probably say the deal with the twins is better value overall, but if you like the twins enough then the secondary deal is still great value for Levin alone.
 
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I Loveallsports

I'm a optimist not a optometrist
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For the Pilons and Levin? I'd say Howdeshell covers one Pilon skill wise probably, but doesn't bring the rest of what they do which is their heart and sandpaper, but with Jacklin it isn't terrible value. Probably Howdeshell + Jacklin + 3rd 2019 + conditional pick (2-4th rounder dependent on scoring and how the soo does) but then you have to cover the loss of Levin, which would probably be 2 seconds + 3rd + 4th (using Nizhnikov deal as comparable value since Niz and him are so similar impact wise, with Levin having more room to breakout next year so 5th becomes 4th.) + conditional pick (Levin could very well still top ppg and I think he will so a 2nd if he puts up say 85+ points and a 3rd or 4th for PPG plus in 60 games)

So deal would be :

Pilons + Levin for Howdeshell + Jacklin + two 2nds + two 3rds + 4th + conditional + conditional

The reason Howdeshell and Jacklin can't cover the Pilons cost is strictly because they are the types of players that aren't really worth dealing unless you get a good overpayment strictly because of what they do for the team. Their role in Blake Murray's development has been under appreciated as he really came on once they were with him more. They also are two of our very few energy guys, and they are two of the few players that had casual fans coming to the arena which is also an understated piece when talking about deals. Finally I can't tel you how many times I heard young fans talking excitedly about the Pilons, as role models and such.

In regards to Levin you may disagree on the Nizhnikov comparable but I think it is the best comparable out there.

I would be willing to look at a deal or deals around this though:

Levin for 2nd + Joe Carroll/Cole MacKay* + LeGuerrier + 3rd + Conditional (4th for PPG)
Pilons for Howdeshell + 2nd + Conditional (3rd depending on season success)
The star is because I would prefer MacKay but I think Carroll is more reasonable but we could knock the conditional off for MacKay IMO.
However both deals for me would hinge on moving Candella for another D. If we could move Candella then I would be all over LeGuerrier who I think could fit the role we need on D right now.

Players I'd reasonably want off the Soo in order:

*a returning Hollowell - I'd trade both Pilons + 5th if we could move candella for Hollowell and
MacKay
LeGuerrier
Roth (not sure if the fit is there)
Joe Carroll
Jacklin
DeMeo
Howdeshell

Then again I could be TOTALLY OFF value wise:dunno: but these are my valuations as a wolves fan. And you've seen some of my trade valuations on leafs threads in the past.

You have a very creative mind. Good work.
 
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I Loveallsports

I'm a optimist not a optometrist
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Based on the first deal, would it work if it was Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nds + a 3rd + a pair of conditional picks.


Conditional pick 1: A guaranteed 3rd which is upgraded to a 2nd if Levin returns for an OA season.
Conditional pick 2: A guaranteed 6th which becomes a 4th if Levin returns for an OA season.

I typically do not see many deals involving players doing well. I mostly just see either the team gets to a certain distance in the playoffs or a guy returns for his OA season.

To summarize
If Levin does not return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nd's + 2 3rd's + a 6th for Levin + the twins.
If Levin does return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 3 2nd's + a 3rd + a 4th for Levin + the twins.

If that is not enough, and adding a defenseman like Wale/Caron does not tip the scales enough, then the second deal if it was Jacklin + Wale/Caron + a 2nd + 3rd + conditional 3rd based on returning for an OA year (either converts or does not). I'd probably say the deal with the twins is better value overall, but if you like the twins enough then the secondary deal is still great value for Levin alone.


Creative thinking as well.
 
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hockeynorth

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Based on the first deal, would it work if it was Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nds + a 3rd + a pair of conditional picks.

Conditional pick 1: A guaranteed 3rd which is upgraded to a 2nd if Levin returns for an OA season.
Conditional pick 2: A guaranteed 6th which becomes a 4th if Levin returns for an OA season.

I typically do not see many deals involving players doing well. I mostly just see either the team gets to a certain distance in the playoffs or a guy returns for his OA season.

To summarize
If Levin does not return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 2 2nd's + 2 3rd's + a 6th for Levin + the twins.
If Levin does return for an OA season: Howdeshell + Jacklin + 3 2nd's + a 3rd + a 4th for Levin + the twins.

If that is not enough, and adding a defenseman like Wale/Caron does not tip the scales enough, then the second deal if it was Jacklin + Wale/Caron + a 2nd + 3rd + conditional 3rd based on returning for an OA year (either converts or does not). I'd probably say the deal with the twins is better value overall, but if you like the twins enough then the secondary deal is still great value for Levin alone.
The second deal was dependent on the third going through, because I felt it was an overpayment so we'd do you a favour back, plus we'd be moving candella for value. It was more me breaking down how it would look (appease casual fans).

My thinking is that I just can't stomach losing 3 of our top 4 wingers in one deal without bringing back potential impact players, and I really don't think that's quite what is being offered here. I think Jacklin could easily be replaced internally by the likes of Bowie, McConville, Baker, or even Gilhula, not to mention players that will push unexpectedly (my dark horse is Biondi), so I don't see him as the right fit. Replace him with Carroll or Mackay however, bump the one condiontial pick from a guaranteed 6th with overage conditions (who knows his military status) to a guaranteed 5th with potential for a 3rd if the son makes conference finals, and drop the 2nd or third condition and add LeGuerrier and we'd have a deal IMO.

So: Levin + Twins for Howdeshell + LeGuerrier + Joe Carroll/MacKay + 2 2nds + 3rd + 5th/3rd

Now another thing I would look at, as Hounds fans seem reluctant to lose LeGuerrier on D I would do
Candella for 2nd + 3rd + Jacklin

for wolves fans we would then flip the 2nd, the 3rd, Gilhula, Phillips, and another 2nd and try to grab Caleb Everett

and as I know hounds fans would look for a backup, how about McGrath for the other one of Carroll or MacKay straight up?

wolves would then look like this for 2018-19

Hutcheson-Murray-Nizhnikov
Carson-Byfield-MacKay
Carroll-Bulitka-Tabak (off wing but right fit for this line)
Howdeshell-Butler-Jacklin
Siau-Bowie-Baker

Everett-Ross
Stratis-LeGuerrier
Malik-Thompson
Serentis-Phillips

Luokkonen
Frappier
Lemaire

I'm quite enjoying this banter

Edit: to put it plainly, I'm not all that interested in Jacklin or Howdeshell.

Edit 2: forgot Thompson initially
 
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SeaOfBlue

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Aug 1, 2013
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I think that is too much value for Levin + the twins, and they don't really need anyone else. I do not think Levin gets more than what Nizhnikov got in a trade, especially since we are talking about 2 years of control maximum (1 of which SSM would have to pay extra for) vs. 3.5 years for Nizhnikov with no conditions.

Howdeshell is equivalent in value to one of the twins (assuming you value them equally). He could play in your top 6 if you wanted him to. He was a great 3rd line player last year and will almost certainly improve with more ice time. All of them are OA's, put up about the same production, and have some sort of intangibles. I am going to say Jacklin + a 3rd could get the other one. Most OAers do not get more than a 3rd or a 4th on their, so you are probably getting an overpayment with Jacklin getting included in there. So in total it would be Howdeshell, Jacklin and a 3rd for the twins. No conditionals based on success or anything like that. I'd say that's pretty fair overall.

That would leave 2 2nd's, a 3rd and a 6th for one year of Levin, which could become 3 2nd's and a 4th if he returns for an OA year. Compare that to Nizhnikov, who for 3.5 years got 2 2nd's, a 3rd and a 5th. If Levin returns for an OA year, you are getting a decent amount more out of Levin than you paid for Nizhnikov and you had less term to work with. I'd say on all fronts, you come out pretty good. Including LeGuerrier and MacKay/Carroll would probably be a deal breaker for SSM. They are the type of young players you include for a premier talent in the OHL, and I am not sure SSM would value Levin + the twins like that. As much as the twins and Levin would help out, they'd probably need to look elsewhere if it cost much more than what I originally put out there.

However it was nice to at least get close to something that was mutually beneficial (if not something that could work) and I hope Sudbury can mine teams like London and Saginaw for some good additional pieces. London will have some really good expendable pieces available this year at forward and defense. Saginaw will definitely have some forwards, and maybe a defenseman or two as well.
 
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hockeynorth

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I think that is too much value for Levin + the twins, and they don't really need anyone else. I do not think Levin gets more than what Nizhnikov got in a trade, especially since we are talking about 2 years of control maximum (1 of which SSM would have to pay extra for) vs. 3.5 years for Nizhnikov with no conditions.

Howdeshell is equivalent in value to one of the twins (assuming you value them equally). He could play in your top 6 if you wanted him to. He was a great 3rd line player last year and will almost certainly improve with more ice time. All of them are OA's, put up about the same production, and have some sort of intangibles. I am going to say Jacklin + a 3rd could get the other one. Most OAers do not get more than a 3rd or a 4th on their, so you are probably getting an overpayment with Jacklin getting included in there. So in total it would be Howdeshell, Jacklin and a 3rd for the twins. No conditionals based on success or anything like that. I'd say that's pretty fair overall.

That would leave 2 2nd's, a 3rd and a 6th for one year of Levin, which could become 3 2nd's and a 4th if he returns for an OA year. Compare that to Nizhnikov, who for 3.5 years got 2 2nd's, a 3rd and a 5th. If Levin returns for an OA year, you are getting a decent amount more out of Levin than you paid for Nizhnikov and you had less term to work with. I'd say on all fronts, you come out pretty good. Including LeGuerrier and MacKay/Carroll would probably be a deal breaker for SSM. They are the type of young players you include for a premier talent in the OHL, and I am not sure SSM would value Levin + the twins like that. As much as the twins and Levin would help out, they'd probably need to look elsewhere if it cost much more than what I originally put out there.

However it was nice to at least get close to something that was mutually beneficial (if not something that could work) and I hope Sudbury can mine teams like London and Saginaw for some good additional pieces. London will have some really good expendable pieces available this year at forward and defense. Saginaw will definitely have some forwards, and maybe a defenseman or two as well.
The problem is just that we have so many players just like Jacklin so we need something different i.e Carroll or MacKay or LeGuerrier and we'd knock off picks. Howdeshell while solid just is not worth subtracting chemistry for. And I'm confident that Howdeshell won't put up as good numbers as the twins the year. This would also be where I'd include McGrath and or Candella to build a blockbuster. The Soo's window is starting to close as it does with OHL teams every few years for a couple of years, so they'd need to bank on Levin's breakout and the Pilons improvement as they have each year. Perhaps other players then Howdeshell or Jacklin and a deal could be possible with similar picks. Also, while I like picks, Byfield is not here forever so it wouldn't help us too much in our window, and we all know the picks will be later. Now if we had Howdeshell and Carroll coming and we remove the conditional second and we had a third team (saginaw?) already involved then a deal would work cause we cold flip the picks immediately.

I'd be interested to hear where others value this, am I closer or is SeaOfBlue. I'm a strong Pilon supporter but I suppose an anti pilon fan would take this and run. I like the picks on Levin, I just want a player. Let it be heard, do you take Howdeshell and Jacklin and picks and run or is that too little for losing three of our four best wingers in our best window. Cub? WJ? Iluvallsports? You all usually throw fair valuations out.
 
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