TSN: Subban behind Boyle and Letang for Team Canada

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

IMO mistakes and bad decisions are not the same thing.

To a certain degree you have to be right. Execution doesn't always excuse the read/attempt, for example.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

IMO mistakes and bad decisions are not the same thing. A mistake is a player trying to chip it off the glass to clear the zone and it end up in the crowd. A bad decision is leading by 1 goal trying to rush end to end. Regardless of the result of that rush, its still a mistake cause protecting the lead is more important.

Do you think Gretz and Orr or Lemieux weren't coached into being even more dominant than they already were? Do you think their mistakes or bad decisions werent pointed out to them in the hopes that it would make the mistakes even more rare??

Call it what you will, but mistakes or bad decisions are common in hockey.

A player like Subban doesn't make many. His good decisions far outweigh his bad decisions, or mistakes.

Much ado about nothing in my opinion.

However with Subban it's come to this. The minutiae of every single issue is over analyzed.

A player like Subban who's creative will make mistakes. Par for the course. The good news is that his creativity leads to a lot of good things, in that it drives our offense. Not to mention how stellar he is defensively.

I'm willing (not that it's up to me, lol) to overlook his rare mistakes. Like Hal Gill said, "You don't need to change Subban".

If you start limiting his creativity due to the fear that he'll make a bad decision or a mistake, you'll lose the positives as well.

Like I said, the 1% (bad plays) is far outweighed by the 99% in this case.

Of course, I just invented those percentages, but you know what I am saying.


I remember Bobby Orr talking about Karlsson last year, and he said he was happy that they didn't try to limit his creativity back in the day, even if he made some mistakes or bad decisions.

Here's the Bobby Orr quote:

Orr doesn’t believe Karlsson would be having this kind of success if Ottawa coach Paul MacLean didn’t take off the leash and let the youngster play to his strengths.

“I want to say one thing about the coach and whoever is allowing him to do this and I’ve been saying this forever: You get a guy who can skate like that, let him go, for gawd’s sakes,” said Orr.

“He’ll get caught. I got caught. The players understand how he plays. They accept it. He’s fast enough to get back a lot of times. You have kids coming along where (the coach says) shoot the puck up the glass and shoot it in.

“The coach is letting (Karlsson) do it and since they’ve allowed him to do it, this kid has been unbelievable. But, let him do it. That’s how he is most effective. Is he gonna make mistakes? Yup. Is he gonna get caught? Yup. But the pluses are going to outweigh the minuses.

“There are probably some coaches who wouldn’t let him go like he does. They let me go. They let Coffey go. I couldn’t imagine playing any other way and I can’t imagine young Erik playing any other way, either.”

Considering that Subban is really strong defensively (better than Karlsson in that respect), I think we should defer to Bobby Orr's opinion on highly talented D-men. Let them play, stop trying to change them and stop over-analyzing the rare mistakes.

 

[General Fanager]

Call it what you will, but mistakes or bad decisions are common in hockey.

A player like Subban doesn't make many. His good decisions far outweigh his bad decisions, or mistakes.

Much ado about nothing in my opinion.

However with Subban it's come to this. The minutiae of every single issue is over analyzed.

A player like Subban who's creative will make mistakes. Par for the course. The good news is that his creativity leads to a lot of good things, in that it drives our offense. Not to mention how stellar he is defensively.

I'm willing (not that it's up to me, lol) to overlook his rare mistakes. Like Hal Gill said, "You don't need to change Subban".

If you start limiting his creativity due to the fear that he'll make a bad decision or a mistake, you'll lose the positives as well.

Like I said, the 1% (bad plays) is far outweighed by the 99% in this case.

Of course, I just invented those percentages, but you know what I am saying.

I agree with you. I dont want to limit or kill the creatiity. I just want him to be mindful of the game.

if they are down 2 goals, then go crazy. If they are up by 1 in the 3rd, dont go crazy...

 

[19VJ17]

If he doesn't make it and Letang does, that says a lot about hockey Canada.

Letang won't be on team Canada...he doesn't even play on the first PP with Pitt anymore...Paul Martin does.
As for Subban not making Team Canada that is only the media invention to sell papers and talk gossip like brainless zombies.

Subban along with Price will be at the Olympics...At the start of the season if you asked me which one guy was not going to be there I would have said maybe Price...but his great playing this season shows he should be the starter for Team Canada...
As far as Subban goes to me he has always been in there top 6 for team Canada brass...and the only way he was not going to be there is if PK played himself off the team...
Which has not happened...he continues to mature with his game...both offensive and defensively.
I see his offensive maturity coming along the most...and his defensive game keeps maturing for a defense man his age...it always takes longer to grow the D game than it does the offensive game.
Give PK another full season and I think we will see the complete package we all see of his talent.

PK WILL BE AT THE OLYMPICS!!!

Will we win the cup this year is another story

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I agree with you. I dont want to limit or kill the creatiity. I just want him to be mindful of the game.

if they are down 2 goals, then go crazy. If they are up by 1 in the 3rd, dont go crazy...

I think it's more about continuing to take everything (space/time/whatever) that opponents allow him while being better at giving them nothing. Erring on the side of conservative against better teams won't always be part of the answer, but eliminating all the mistakes/judgement calls that make it easier on opponents will.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

if they are down 2 goals, then go crazy. If they are up by 1 in the 3rd, dont go crazy...

Just for fun, and I know we've come full circle on this, but has Subban gone crazy with a 1 goal lead in the 3rd lately?

Is it possible we're over analyzing him again?

 

[poetryinmotion]

Just for fun, and I know we've come full circle on this, but has Subban gone crazy with a 1 goal lead in the 3rd lately?

Is it possible we're over analyzing him again?

I recall him doing it once this season. Somehow he does it all the time now.

 

[pine*]

oh yeah

 

[samsquanch9*]

His second goal as well. He leaned on Patches but still gave him enough time and room for Patches to switch from his backhand to his forehand and get a decent shot off.

Oh yeah i meant the second one. I missed the game but the one where he cut in from the right wasnt it?

 

[General Fanager]

Just for fun, and I know we've come full circle on this, but has Subban gone crazy with a 1 goal lead in the 3rd lately?

Is it possible we're over analyzing him again?

well the game vs washington, they were up by 2 and he made 2 giveaways in the neutral zone in the 2nd period one of which led to a break away.


about over analyzing him. Thats what we do on this site, there is a thread about what was wrong with patches, there is one about what was wrong with DD, there is one about what is wrong with Bourque. Those players are picked apart in those threads cause they werent playing well and no one cares. I make a comment about PK being able to play even better than he is already and everyone goes nuts.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

well the game vs washington, they were up by 2 and he made 2 giveaways in the neutral zone in the 2nd period one of which led to a break away.

Again, has he gone crazy with a 1 goal lead in the third as you wrote?

Your example doesn't fall in line with that.

Of course a PMD will have a give-away here and there. Par for the course. If you expect otherwise the issue lies within your unrealistic expectations.

about over analyzing him. Thats what we do on this site, there is a thread about what was wrong with patches

However we can also hold onto a little perspective when doing it, no?

The fact of the matter remains that like Orr said, he'll make mistakes, but the good outweighs the bad.

Ideally he wouldn't make any mistakes whatsoever, but that's not realistic.

everyone goes nuts.

I would hardly qualify my responses as going nuts. I think I've provided logical counter-points to your criticism of his play.

 

[General Fanager]

Again, has he gone crazy with a 1 goal lead in the third as you wrote?

Your example doesn't fall in line with that.

Yes it does, you took what I said too literal. It was just an example of game management. They were up by 2 goals, there was no need to get fancy in the neutral zone.

The fact of the matter remains that like Orr said, he'll make mistakes, but the good outweighs the bad..

Ive never said otherwise

Ideally he wouldn't make any mistakes whatsoever, but that's not realistic.

Mistakes and bad decisions are not the same thing.

I would hardly qualify my responses as going nuts. I think I've provided logical counter-points to your criticism of his play.

You are not the only one I was refering to.


whats so wrong about thinking a guy can play better than he does already??

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Yes it does, you took what I said too literal. It was just an example of game management. They were up by 2 goals, there was no need to get fancy in the neutral zone.

Seems to me like you're moving the goal posts.
The example you give clearly does not fall within your earlier criticism of his game. If you want to change it to Subban being risky with a 2 goal lead in the middle of the second, that's fine, but it's the epitome of nitpicking.

The point was that he doesn't "Go crazy with a 1 goal lead in the third" very often, if ever.

Mistakes and bad decisions are not the same thing.

Semantics. If you make a mistake in your decision making it will lead to a negative play. The good news is that Subban rarely makes mistakes, or takes a bad decision.

However when he does make a bad decision that leaves to a mistake people sure do seem to hold onto it for dear life.

whats so wrong about thinking a guy can play better than he does already??

Nothing wrong with it I suppose, other than having unrealistic expectations. I am offering a counter-point to your vague criticism that doesn't seem to have many (if any) examples to support it.

Again, not saying he couldn't be better. He theoretically could, but like Bobby Orr, the best d-man in the history of hockey, said "Let him play. That's how he's the most effective'.

 

[Kriss E]

Yes it does, you took what I said too literal. It was just an example of game management. They were up by 2 goals, there was no need to get fancy in the neutral zone.

That's the part where Orr says ''you let him play''. Ya, he will make mistakes. Accept it, don't hold on to it. Why not talk about the many, many, many good plays he does make instead? Do you even realize the many good things he does that may be a little more subtle to see?

By the way, PK never goes crazy. If your definition of crazy is going for a rush when up by 1 in the 3rd period, then your standards are pretty ridiculous.

Mistakes and bad decisions are not the same thing.

Yes, they are. A bad decision is a mistake, and a mistake is the result of a bad decision. It's the same thing.
And going up for a rush even with a one goal lead in the 3rd isn't always a bad decision. Perhaps you're a little more conservative, but I have no issues with it so long as the opening is there.

whats so wrong about thinking a guy can play better than he does already??

Nothing wrong with it so long as the standard is realistic.

 

[habsfanatics*]

That's the part where Orr says ''you let him play''. Ya, he will make mistakes. Accept it, don't hold on to it. Why not talk about the many, many, many good plays he does make instead? Do you even realize the many good things he does that may be a little more subtle to see?

By the way, PK never goes crazy. If your definition of crazy is going for a rush when up by 1 in the 3rd period, then your standards are pretty ridiculous.


Yes, they are. A bad decision is a mistake, and a mistake is the result of a bad decision. It's the same thing.
And going up for a rush even with a one goal lead in the 3rd isn't always a bad decision. Perhaps you're a little more conservative, but I have no issues with it so long as the opening is there.



Nothing wrong with it so long as the standard is realistic.

I remember how pk took all the flack for the loss against the Flames early on, posters and coaches failing to point out, that, if not for pk the game was already over. He carried the team on his own. The penalty was a bit stupid, but I accept it with pk, he was the only one on the team who showed he gave a ****.

Sure it was a bad play at an inopportune time, but he put us in a competitive position on his own, I don't mind a player making a poor decision now and then if his intentions are good. He was trying to rally the troops and went a bit overboard, at least he showed some freaking life. They say he cost us the game, but it was highly unlikely that we would have tied it anyways, I agree that these types of plays need to be limited, but they already are, this one was a one off event, and under the circumstances, I was completely fine, somewhat annoyed by it, but fine considering he was the only one who showed up.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Seems to me like you're moving the goal posts.
The example you give clearly does not fall within your earlier criticism of his game. If you want to change it to Subban being risky with a 2 goal lead in the middle of the second, that's fine, but it's the epitome of nitpicking'.

I'd say the "epitome" is clearly you insisting on the "1 goal lead"... like you can't understand it's just an example or something ?

 

[SB164]

If he isn't selected for Team Canada, PK's gonna play with a chip on his shoulder for the rest of the season and come back with a vengeance after the Olympic break. Not to mention he'll be well rested.

 

[Hurt]

Please use the report function instead of flaming posters who are breaking the Rules. Thank you.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I'd say the "epitome" is clearly you insisting on the "1 goal lead"... like you can't understand it's just an example or something ?

There's a big and fairly obvious difference between being up 2 goals in the second period and being up 1 goal in the third, especially if we're talking about in-game scenarios.

 

[ECWHSWI]

There's a big and fairly obvious difference between being up 2 goals in the second period and being up 1 goal in the third, especially if we're talking about in-game scenarios.

guess you can't understand it was just an example, keep going then.

 

[Habsawce]

It's scary how much better PK is than Kris Letang, not even in the same realm and Letang makes a boat load of money. I really wish people would see that Subban shouldn't be battling with Dan Boyle and is most likely better than any of the RHD in Canada.

I take him over Pietrangelo and Doughty for sure, and it would be a difficult decision for Weber. Have to take into account Subban's playoff performances against Weber's, he's just been flat out better.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

guess you can't understand it was just an example, keep going then.

Well in that case it's a bad example, as previously stated. I don't get what you are going for here, to be honest.

It's scary how much better PK is than Kris Letang, not even in the same realm and Letang makes a boat load of money. I really wish people would see that Subban shouldn't be battling with Dan Boyle and is most likely better than any of the RHD in Canada.

I take him over Pietrangelo and Doughty for sure, and it would be a difficult decision for Weber. Have to take into account Subban's playoff performances against Weber's, he's just been flat out better.

I think most people acknowledge that Subban deserves to be on Team Canada. The issue lies in the selection committee. We all know that they've made bad decisions in the past (Stamkos, Crosby) and they do tend to prefer veterans over young, skilled players.

 

[Habsawce]

Well in that case it's a bad example, as previously stated. I don't get what you are going for here, to be honest.



I think most people acknowledge that Subban deserves to be on Team Canada. The issue lies in the selection committee. We all know that they've made bad decisions in the past (Stamkos, Crosby) and they do tend to prefer veterans over young, skilled players.

Fair enough but Subban is better than Doughty and Pietrangelo, just flat out is better. Weber hasn't been as good without Suter but is probably overall the better player but struggled in 2010 at the Olympics. If my biased eyes Keith-Subban would be Canada's best pair over any other options by a country mile. Those players would compliment each other so well and have the puck on their sticks the entire game.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Fair enough but Subban is better than Doughty and Pietrangelo, just flat out is better. Weber hasn't been as good without Suter but is probably overall the better player but struggled in 2010 at the Olympics. If my biased eyes Keith-Subban would be Canada's best pair over any other options by a country mile. Those players would compliment each other so well and have the puck on their sticks the entire game.

I get what you are saying. It's pretty frustrating that he's looked at as a long-shot when he would be arguably the best d-man on the team.

Personally I'm hoping to see Weber-Subban on the powerplay. The ole' double cannon approach.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Fair enough but Subban is better than Doughty and Pietrangelo, just flat out is better. Weber hasn't been as good without Suter but is probably overall the better player but struggled in 2010 at the Olympics. If my biased eyes Keith-Subban would be Canada's best pair over any other options by a country mile. Those players would compliment each other so well and have the puck on their sticks the entire game.

I would not say Subban is flat out better than Pietrangelo and Doughty, although he is in the same realm. And all three of them trounce Letang, a guy who continuously shows fourth rate hockey IQ that gets in the way of his tremendous talent. I also like Boyle, but not enough to keep Subban off. And I won't lie, I am not sure Weber will be all that good at the Olympics. I find his playoff performances to be constantly disappointing as well.