Strachan-A hard cap will make winning harder

[ScottyBowman]

That is true in some regard. But many of those deals were made by smaller market teams that were forced to trade players away to teams that could afford the salary demands of the players in question. But don't allow a small fact like that play into your fantasy.

Like when Colorado acquired Roy? or when Detroit traded Coffeyt/Primeau/ and a draft pick for Shanahan or when St Louis traded Shanahan for Pronger? I'm not sure what team you are a fan of but I'm willing to bet that if they sucked during the last 10 years, they will continue to suck after the CBA.

 

[ScottyBowman]

If a hard cap means more teams will be able to compete - which makes it harder to win the cup - doesn't that make the cup even more desirable and wouldn't that be a good thing for the sport?

No. It is not desireable for a team to make excellent draft picks and have them leave because you can't keep them under the cap. Why even bother have a scouting department?? Just nab someone elses talent.

 

[djhn579]

No. It is not desireable for a team to make excellent draft picks and have them leave because you can't keep them under the cap. Why even bother have a scouting department?? Just nab someone elses talent.

Kind of like how the big markets do now, but only everyone gets to do it?

 

[Riddarn]

No. It is not desireable for a team to make excellent draft picks and have them leave because you can't keep them under the cap. Why even bother have a scouting department?? Just nab someone elses talent.

Well if thats the most efficient way to run a team under a cap then every team will be run that way before long. So it will even out.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Like when Colorado acquired Roy? or when Detroit traded Coffeyt/Primeau/ and a draft pick for Shanahan or when St Louis traded Shanahan for Pronger? I'm not sure what team you are a fan of but I'm willing to bet that if they sucked during the last 10 years, they will continue to suck after the CBA.

No, more along the lines of when LA dumped Blake or when Calgary dumped Gilmour, MacInnis, Suter, Nieuwendyk and Fleury or when Edmonton dumped Messier, Weight, Guerin, Hamrlik, Niinimaa and Comrie, etc. etc. etc.

I'll take that bet. I will be you that Detroit will spend as much time at the bottom of the league as they do at the top, for many years to come after a cap is put in place. The ability for the big spenders to steal away the small market teams best talent will be taken away and a premium will be placed on the draft and development of talent. The Red Wings will have to do much better than they have in the past decade. An even footing will be estabished and a new way of running a team will develop. The big markets are in for a wake up call.

 

[vanlady]

As a fan of Vancouver I don't want revenue sharing either. Fans that beleive that owners are not going to get around a cap are hilarious. Ask Bobby Clarke about personal service contracts, can't count that to a cap, but it pays 250,000 a year for life. Or how about those wives with those jobs they get paid 7 figures for but they never attend. Or how about those wonderful "gifts" like cars or better yet here in Vancouver a house in West Van. Boy I hope we get a cap, we'll never lose a player, and we might be able to afford more free agents we want.

 

[ScottyBowman]

As a fan of Vancouver I don't want revenue sharing either. Fans that beleive that owners are not going to get around a cap are hilarious. Ask Bobby Clarke about personal service contracts, can't count that to a cap, but it pays 250,000 a year for life. Or how about those wives with those jobs they get paid 7 figures for but they never attend. Or how about those wonderful "gifts" like cars or better yet here in Vancouver a house in West Van. Boy I hope we get a cap, we'll never lose a player, and we might be able to afford more free agents we want.

That would be illegal.

 

[oilers_guy_eddie]

What will be funny is when the Calgary's and Edmonton's end up losing their stars under the hard cap because there is just not enough money in cities like Calgary and Edmonton to warrant signing a comparable contract there, as it would be to Toronto where they could double their salaries under endorsements. Then we will hear MORE whining about how not fair it is for them. And how if it doesn't change, bless their little hearts they will have to move because the big bad Toronto Maple Leafs or New York Rangers are stealing all of their players.

Double their salaries? For real?

Sure, being the big dog in Toronto gives you a shot at selling Chunky Soup on TV, but I think that generally speaking you're greatly overstating the amount of money available through endorsements for hockey players.

I would expect that Toronto is the *only* large market city where hockey players can expect to make significantly more money from endorsements than in a small-market Canadian city. In any large market US city, hockey is 3rd or 4th or 10th string entertainment. Local advertisers have a plethora of baseball, football, and basketball players to choose from and wouldn't pay particularly large money for hockey players who have comparatively little name recognition.

How many hockey players have had big endorsement contracts in the US? Gretzky and Messier, right? Any others?

Players in recent national advertising contracts that I can think of:
-Sundin and Lemieux (Chunky)
-Thornton and Lecavalier (CCM)
-Naslund and Kovalchuk (Nike)
-Iginla (CIBC Unlimited Checking)
-Theodore (sports energy drink of some kind)

8 guys, and only 2 play for large market teams, only 1 US large market team. Along with players from Calgary, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, Montreal.

I've heard it argued before that large market teams will always have an advantage due to the opportunity for endorsement money. I'm just not buying it. For local endorsements, I believe that the advantage in market size and supposedly more money available is more than countered by the fact that in every large market except Toronto, hockey is an also-ran in terms of recognition. For widespread endorsement contracts, Toronto is the only team that I believe has an advantage.

 

[vanlady]

That would be illegal.

Funny it has been happening in the NHL for years. It will just get worse.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Imagine an NHL where teams like the Rangers can't outbid themselves for guys like Lefebrve, Gusarov, Quintal, Kasparaitis, Kamensky,

exactly ... this lockout is going to help NYR bigtime. so in essence, lockout supporters are doing this for the benefit of teams like TOR and NYR.

who knew this lockout was about helping teams like NYR and TOR. but thats going to be the net effect.

DR

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Do the oakland A's ever keep star players? Or do teams like the Yankees just take them away once they are developed?

so ... NYY has stars .. big deal. And when Oakland fans buck up like Yankee fans, then they too will demand and get stars.

NYY get what their fans pay for.

DR

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

That is true in some regard. But many of those deals were made by smaller market teams that were forced to trade players away to teams that could afford the salary demands of the players in question. But don't allow a small fact like that play into your fantasy.

you mean how OTT was forced to trade Yashin for Spezza and Chara
or do you mean how VAN was forced to trade Pavel Bure for Ed Jovanvoski
or do you mean how CGY was forced to trade Fleury for Regehr and Niuwendyk for Iginla ?

or maybe you mean how EDM had to trade Hamrlik for Brewer or Carter for Dvorak.

oh wait, i think you mean the small market Tampa Lightining stole St Louis from CGY as a free agent ?

or maybe you mean how big market DAL signed Turgeon away from STL for 6m per season. How terrible for STL !

frankly, you probably meant how the big market Avalanche stole Rob Blake from small market LAK ? And they ONLY gave up Deadmarsh, Miller and a 1st rounder.

talk about bs ...

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Kind of like how the big markets do now, but only everyone gets to do it?

they do ?

show some examples...

dr

 

[ScottyBowman]

Funny it has been happening in the NHL for years. It will just get worse.

But their is no cap and I don't see any reason why an owner would do that. Backdoor deals will be illegal under a hard cap just like they are with the NBA. If something like that ever leaked out, their would be heavy fines and draft picks to pay.

 

[djhn579]

they do ?

show some examples...

dr

Sorry... You seem to have all the answers...

I thought you were trying to ignore me?

 

[vanlady]

But their is no cap and I don't see any reason why an owner would do that. Backdoor deals will be illegal under a hard cap just like they are with the NBA. If something like that ever leaked out, their would be heavy fines and draft picks to pay.

What do you mean they are illegal in the NBA. Here's a hint Vince Carters freak out over his mom's parking space. Vince doesn't pay for that space and it was never under his contract. So not under the cap, but worth good money, what does a prime parking space and free season tickets for his mom worth anyway. That is only one of the free perks Vince was given and not counted toward a cap. Sorry happens all the time in Football and Basketball, oh and hockey. To be deluded into thinking that the money making teams won't keep there stars by circuventing a cap is naive.

 

[ScottyBowman]

What do you mean they are illegal in the NBA. Here's a hint Vince Carters freak out over his mom's parking space. Vince doesn't pay for that space and it was never under his contract. So not under the cap, but worth good money, what does a prime parking space and free season tickets for his mom worth anyway. That is only one of the free perks Vince was given and not counted toward a cap. Sorry happens all the time in Football and Basketball, oh and hockey. To be deluded into thinking that the money making teams won't keep there stars by circuventing a cap is naive.

I actually thought you had something eye-popping to say but then you bring up free tickets. I hope you realize that most teams give out 2 free tickets to every player on the roster and I hope you do realize that Vince Carter makes $17 mil a year in salary and $10k in free tickets isn't going to make a difference to him. Unless you can cite me some examples in football (NFL) or basketball, then you're just making things up.

 

[Lard_Lad]

What do you mean they are illegal in the NBA. Here's a hint Vince Carters freak out over his mom's parking space. Vince doesn't pay for that space and it was never under his contract. So not under the cap, but worth good money, what does a prime parking space and free season tickets for his mom worth anyway. That is only one of the free perks Vince was given and not counted toward a cap. Sorry happens all the time in Football and Basketball, oh and hockey. To be deluded into thinking that the money making teams won't keep there stars by circuventing a cap is naive.

Stuff like that is, in all likelihood, written into Carter's contract and factored into its value. If the NBA catches you in a serious cap violation, they come down hard. When Minnesota tried to cheat its way around the cap to sign Joe Smith, they got fined $3.5 million, lost three first-round picks, the owner and GM were suspended and ordered not to have any contact with the business and basketball operations of the team for half a year, and Smith was declared a free agent and wound up signing with Detroit.

 

[Winger98]

Well if thats the most efficient way to run a team under a cap then every team will be run that way before long. So it will even out.

Wouldn't a more desirable goal be to foster a system where it is easier to keep the talant you develop rather than a system where it's easier to replace the talant you continually lose?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Sorry... You seem to have all the answers...

I thought you were trying to ignore me?

i dont claim to have all the answers. i just dont teams should feel slighted when they make "contract" trades. there are many examples of teams being forced to deal a player they cant afford and coming out better than the team who they traded with.

but i keep hearing how big market teams steal all the players, yet no one can give many examples.

also, when did i say i was trying to ignore you ?

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

But their is no cap and I don't see any reason why an owner would do that. Backdoor deals will be illegal under a hard cap just like they are with the NBA. If something like that ever leaked out, their would be heavy fines and draft picks to pay.

how does the NHL have any jurisdction if the Cablevision hire's Jarome Iginla's wife to be the weather girl at one of their local news stations and pays her 5million per year to do so ?

for an example.

dr

 

[grego]

I don't care if they give bonuses on some teams. As long as that stuff is never legally recognized by the system it won't matter.

That way if a team tries to beat an offer by the Oilers, for example, by giving a big bonus and lots of perks but the dollars to the cap are the same. The Oilers still would get to retain their player. Or they could offer a dollar more then the legal amount and still get to keep the player.

As long as you keep the system for many players, so that they original team has matching rights. And they only have to match on the stuff that is legally counted, to retain the player.

 

[djhn579]

i dont claim to have all the answers. i just dont teams should feel slighted when they make "contract" trades. there are many examples of teams being forced to deal a player they cant afford and coming out better than the team who they traded with.

but i keep hearing how big market teams steal all the players, yet no one can give many examples.

also, when did i say i was trying to ignore you ?

dr

You completely miss the fact that the team may not have wanted to make the trade, and just because the trade turned out "OK", that doesn't mean it was in the best interest of the team to do so. Why is OK if a team has to give up one of ther best players, and get a couple of others in return that take several more years to get close to the level of the player that they lost?

We can all look back and say, "yeah, that was a good deal...", but we will never know what could have happened if they were not forced to make that trade.


You said that months ago, when you were Demented Reality...

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

You completely miss the fact that the team may not have wanted to make the trade, and just because the trade turned out "OK", that doesn't mean it was in the best interest of the team to do so. Why is OK if a team has to give up one of ther best players, and get a couple of others in return that take several more years to get close to the level of the player that they lost?

We can all look back and say, "yeah, that was a good deal...", but we will never know what could have happened if they were not forced to make that trade.


You said that months ago, when you were Demented Reality...

trades are part of the business. i dont see why we should worry that some teams have been forced to make them.

i dont recall saying that. sorry if i did.

dr

 

[oilers_guy_eddie]

how does the NHL have any jurisdction if the Cablevision hire's Jarome Iginla's wife to be the weather girl at one of their local news stations and pays her 5million per year to do so ?

for an example.

dr

The NHL might not be able to prevent Cablevision from doing that, but they could certainly recognize it for what it was-- an obvious attempt to circumvent the salary cap-- and punish the Rangers accordingly-- fines, draft picks, whatever.